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Old 04-29-2009, 03:02 AM   #31
Dread
TMNT 1984-2009
 
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Brooklyn, NY, US of A
Posts: 21,789
Exclamation Re: Avengers cartoon

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Originally Posted by lixdexia View Post
maybe, but wolverine and the x-men proves imo that when the dynamics are changed due to the popularity of certain characters the results are sub-par at best. not to get on a soap box, but... the company wide "boy scout-ification" and propagandizing of wolverine over the last decade has stripped the character of any edge or interest he may have once held. personally i blame the x-men movie and more specifically hugh jackman for this. i understand that a tamer character is easier to market to children, but marvel already had/has a plethora of characters suited to that purpose in place.

ok, back to the avengers, i don't really have a problem with ironman being the "leader" of the avengers here; it's cannon, it fits his character, and it makes sence that he'd want an oversight position since he's bank rolling the whole thing. however i hope they don't go overboard with it, i'd like to see a similar leadership dynamic between cap and ironman as between batman and superman in jl where the latter is the "leader" but the former holds a similar level of respect and actual feild leadership status
Hugh Jackman? I mean while I do agree with some of your point, Jackman can only act with what he is written and what the director directs. I think he has played Wolverine well and if a director didn't want Wolverine, say, looking like he about to cry after he stabs Rogue by accident or bawling when Xavier gets vaporized, they won't let him. It just seems akin to blaming the issues of WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN on Steven J. Blum. Unless you don't like the actor's performance, they can only do so much. Sure, Jackman's tall, but Wolverine hasn't been drawn like he is really 5' 3'' since John Bryne left the book. I just don't get the logic of this criticism.

The rest, though, I understand. Wolverine became popular by being a certain type of character, and yet after he has become popular, that character has slowly been replaced with character bits from other X-Men, and/or more plot convenient stuff to make Logan seem more ideal. The movies are responsible for this to a degree, although the first was in pre-production in 1998-1999, when Marvel was not fiscally solvent and there was no assurance that X-MEN wouldn't bomb, much less do very well, even with a budget of $80 million (average for summer blockbusters of 2000); using Logan as the lead in character was probably pragmatism. The problem was the sequels never could manage to disentangle themselves from Wolverine worship, or rather the movie audience wasn't expected to. But, I remember people mocking Logan's softer edges by calling him "Grandpa X-Man" even in the late 90's.

Captain America and Iron Man should have a relationship similar to Superman and Batman; one of mutual respect but also one of perspective difference.

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Originally Posted by TheVileOne View Post
In your opinion .
Yes, true.

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I still have a lot of problems with the Justice League series. And while it does raise the bar in many ways, it was still supremely flawed in certain execution.
Sometimes it seems to me that you haven't forgiven that show for JUSTICE LEAGUE season 1, which admittedly was not terribly good. Or perhaps episodes like "HAWK AND DOVE". But, overall, JLU is a great show that had flaws. W&TXM so far is an above average show with moments of brilliance, but they are just that so far; moments. Some clips from, say, "DIVIDED WE FALL" are DL'd and sung as gospel by legions on YouTube (often viewed by more people than are buying JLA monthly). Does any bit of Marvel animation that isn't Spectacular Spider-Man made within the last 7 years match? No. Not yet, anyway.

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They are rising to the challenge. In itself making a show like Wolverine and the X-men with such longer episode seasons is pretty ambitious. Avengers will be the first actual Avengers series in over 10 years.
I refuse to count AVENGERS: UNITED THEY STAND from 1999. That was more of a bad cough than a "show".

And yes, Marvel animation is getting more ambitious. The Teen IRON MAN seems a step backward (or from a past era), but by and large they are moving on. Longer seasons, more serial storytelling, etc. All this works in AVENGERS: EMH's favor.

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Oh boo-urns to this. You speak of JLU like its Raiders or the Holy Grail.
Marvel Animation has struggled woefully to try to match the heights attained by Bruce Timm, Paul Dini, Dwayne McDuffie and other writers on that show and their "DCUA". They're trying, and SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN practically attained that; to prove life is cruel, the odds of having a 3rd season are in much doubt. But I believe this is the show where they can be attained. Not with an X-Men show, which is a different sort of genre or universe than JLA or Avengers.

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I'm not sure how you can say that about X-men when you have Toad who is a pretty blatantly goofy and comic relief character. Not to mention Blob and his spring season or Quicksilver breaking into a high security prison just to humiliate Toad.
There were some lighthearted character moments but by and large the tone of W&TXM was very grim and serious. Which is fine when things are good. Sometimes it borders on pretentious. Despite the serious tone of the 90's X-MEN, the characters often were making puns (most of them horrible by today's standards). W&TXM whether one loves it or not is probably the most serious X-Men cartoon yet.

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Count me out of lumping Wolverine and The X-men pedestrian. The show produced results. It gave us a type of X-men series we hadn't seen in a long time.
Indeed it did, but whether that was good or bad is up to opinion. I found the first season a good effort but really nothing to sing praises about, unless expectations were low. It didn't suck. It was above average, above material like THE BATMAN or even most of LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES. But it'll need a majorly awesome second season to reach the top shelf. An above average debut season is fine, but it is only that; above average. A B on a first test is fine, but it is not an A+, and I don't confuse the two.

AVENGERS: EARTH'S GREATEST HEROES will hopefully start hitting home runs much sooner. If SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN taught me anything, it is that with the right talent and effort, expecting excellence from the pilot all the way to the end of 26 episodes shouldn't be as rare as it is, and is more than attainable. Yost knows his lore and TEEN TITANS often had a lot of energy (the director did a few episodes of TT), so it will be interesting to see how it goes. The storyboarding had better be excellent.

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