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Old 04-11-2013, 04:08 PM   #162
Shikamaru
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

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Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
But I think the difference is, you seem to not agree that Gotham would have gotten cleaned up. That's arguing the characterization of Gotham, not the characterization of Bruce Wayne.
Correct. That's what I said in my last post.

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From Jonah Nolan's own mouth, the idea was to say "What if the plan worked?" So how can you say Gotham wasn't sufficiently cleaned up when the whole premise of the film was trying to build off that idea? You can disagree with that characterization of Gotham, but given the way they had established Bruce (who wanted to overthrow the corruption in Gotham and move on), it was a consistent characterization in terms of how he would behave in a situation like that.
The plan was to give Gotham hope by keeping the image of the White Knight alive. However, that does not mean Batman would no longer be needed.

Harvey gave the city hope to fight off the crime and corruption that has been poisoning them for decades but what TDK also established was that there was a "higher class of criminal" (aka "freaks") that now existed in Gotham due to Batman's arrival. This higher class of criminals was something that only Batman could handle, not Harvey nor anyone else which is why the Joker succeeded in corrupting Harvey and not Batman. That was a message in TDK - that no matter how good hearted and inspirational a man can be, at the end of the day he is just a man as opposed to "more than just a man" and they cannot take on that higher class of criminal.

This parallels what happened in the comics. Only difference here is that TDK made the point that only Batman can take on that higher class of criminal. Bruce originally became Batman - an extraordinary being - to clean up the crime in his city but the arrival of an extraordinary being sparked escalation and brought in other extraordinary beings. Joker even talks about multiple times in the movie how Gotham will never be the same. He says the mob will eventually fall and be replaced by that higher class of criminal and that Batman has changed things forever followed by calling him a "freak" just like himself. There is even a point where he brings up the rate at which Gotham citizens are losing their minds. TDK is not the only time we saw the whole theme of the "freaks" being played out. We got a lot of the idea of freaks in Begins too with the Arkham breakout, Crane's descent to insanity, Bruce discovering that there are bigger threats to Gotham than just Falcone, Gordon's line at the end about how escalation is occurring and how people like Batman have started to show up as well, etc. Basically it all parallels Batman's first year in the comics and what happened in his first year.

Your defense may be that Batman taking the blame for Harvey's death is what undid all of that but I don't believe that to be the case. This "higher class of criminal" was something that no man could handle. It was a class that only something "more than just a man" could handle. Someone like Batman. Gotham could not have handled someone like Riddler or Mad Hatter or Black Mask by themselves regardless of how much they tried. They needed Batman. Gotham was given hope to fight off the corruption and crime that has been poisoning their city for decades but this was something new. That hope was not created to fight off the new threat but the old one. It was the beginning of a new age in Gotham. Thus, Bruce would've still had to remain as Batman while being hunted down and while Gotham continued to have hope in Harvey so that he could take out the new disease that arose whenever one tried to do something on the same scale as the Joker before all of that would reverse Gotham to a hopeless Gotham again.

Also, before you or anyone else brings up that the Joker failed to bring in the freaks into the city, I would like to clear that up. The "rise of the freaks" is not something Joker wanted to bring to Gotham nor was Joker the first major freak to strike Gotham (that was Scarecrow). That was something that was already happening in Gotham regardless of the Joker and before the Joker even made his big debut. He did not try to bring in more freaks; he simply knew what was going to happen in the future - that more people like him and Batman would be created in Gotham - and he not only accepted this future but embraced it. It was mainly Batman's arrival that sparked it (and him just leaving wasn't going to take the freaks with him). On top of that, if you want to get technical, the entire mob fell at the end of TDK when the Joker temporarily took it over. That was before the Dent Act was even formed and it was something that was predicted beforehand (that the mob was going to fall). The second part of the prediction never happened though, which was the higher class of criminals AKA the "freaks" would step in.

Overall, they basically dropped an entire theme that ran and was developed throughout the first 2 movies because...well...mainly because they just didn't want to deal with it anymore.

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IMO, that's exactly what TDK gave us. Nolan even said that even at the start of TDK, Batman is the fully formed Batman of the comics, at the peak of his powers. I don't even know that I necessarily agree with that, but I certainly believe that by the end of the film he was "THE" Batman. Even in a pop culture sense, that is where Bale's Batman and Nolan's version effectively became "the" interpretation for the modern era.
Nolan needs to read more comics then. The fully formed Batman of the comics would be what we saw in Arkham Asylum and Arkham City.

I also believe that he became THE Batman at the end of TDK. But that is exactly why the 8 year gap just doesn't work. He finally becomes THE Batman (at least in his mentality) and is more motivated than ever before due to the realization he had from Harvey's death and due to Rachel no longer holding him back and then Nolan has him just quit. This is why I consider TDKR to be the biggest wasted potential to ever exist so far out of all the comic book movies.

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The thing is just that the peak of his powers as depicted in the Nolanverse wasn't godly enough for some fans.
He doesn't have to be able to take out someone like Darkseid by just blinking (lol). However, his peak has to be higher than what we saw. Like I said though, this wasn't really that big of a problem with BB and TDK since they both took place in his first year. I really loved how they were developing Batman in both of those films. Had they continued that in TDKR....the pure awesomeness we could've got .

I also sometimes fear that TDKR might bleed into that development of BB and TDK and hurt my enjoyment of them overall when I'll go back to watch them. I hope that isn't the case .

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