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Old 12-20-2011, 12:12 AM   #83
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Originally Posted by That person View Post
I didn't say that Waid's Superman was identical to the Golden-Age Superman, or even that he was closer to it than Byrne's version. Both of them had a sort of intimidating righteous badass act going on that other versions didn't, so you can't really claim that there was no influence. Waid is more familiar with wide variety of Superman lore than any of us, so it makes sense that he drew his favorite elements from all across it when launching Superman for the 21st century. I could enumerate the many ways in which Byrne digressed from the Golden Age, but I don't think that would really be a fruitful exercise. I will maintain that Waid's characterization is closer to the spirit of the character, but that doesn't just include the Golden Age stuff.
Waid's characterization is closer to the Silver Age version of the character and the Smallville TV show version.

All entirely aesthetic changes.
All entirely unneeded changes.

I thought including the Daily Star was a clever tribute to the Golden Age version and the rivalry added an interesting new dynamic, but to each his own.
I much prefer the classic Clark and Lois working relationship of them at the same newspaper and having a competitive rivalry relationship on assignments together, competing to get the story first. Rather than Lois barely even remembering who Clark Kent is. It's not necessary to scrap some of the basics of the iconic Superman mythology.

Clark was designed to look inconspicuous. Since many large corporations have abandoned dress codes for their employees altogether and very few require neatly combed hair or ties, it makes sense that a modern Clark would look a bit slobbish next to his original incarnation.
Clark Kent was conceived as a clean cut, neat and tidy, well-mannered, upbeat guy, which he's iconically been throughout he's publication history. A slobbish grungy look is out of character, and strikes of jaded carelessness.

Lots of people trust him in the New 52 continuity and lots of people mistrust him in the Golden Age.
The public trusted the Golden Age Superman as a hero.

The higher level of mistrust leveled at Superman in Morison's run is probably a more realistic representation of how people react to an entity flying (or leaping) around and acting like Superman, especially the Golden Age Superman.
The way Morrison's Superman acts, the people would indeed mistrust him.

I'm not disputing that, but don't pretend Byrne is the only Post-Crisis writer to take some cues from the Golden Age.
I have never said Byrne was the only one to take some influence from the Golden Age.

Making Lex a generic criminal CEO at the expense of displaying his scientific genius is pretty crappy characterization, and "skinny kingpin" does seem to summarize it succinctly. That's not to say a brilliant mind like Lex's couldn't also amuse itself with running a corporation and it does provide a nice explanation for how he gets the funding for projects that don't seem to have much non-Superman-killing utility (and tend not to be very good at that), but Lex is a scientist and inventor first and foremost. Maggin, Waid, and Morrison all got this right.
Byrne did not make Luthor a generic CEO. Byrne's Luthor is a genius, a brilliant inventor. As the inventor of the LexWing aircraft, he obviously had a knowledge of physics, which is scientific. Physics is the science that deals with motion. His ability to exist above the law made things very difficult for Superman, it created tension, created a struggle and it brought some reality to Superman, some relevance, showing that the system is flawed and doesn't always work. Superman was originally a champion of the oppressed versus corruption of the law at the highest levels, I've always seen the rich corrupt LexCorp Lex Luthor hiding behind a mask of respectability as a return to that concept. The original Luthor was a red haired dictator - a ruler who assumes sole and absolute power, he wore business suits. Luthor in The Man of Steel was red haired and wore business suits and was certainly a ruler assuming sole and absolute power. He had scientists working for him and Jerry Siegel's Golden Age Luthor had a scientific lab assistant working for him. Luthor originally met Superman as an adult and hated Superman because he's powers were a threat. The Man of Steel was a return to that concept. The overweight business suited con-man Luthor by Ed Hamilton and Wayne Boring in the 1950s was also an obvious influence.

The current run on Action Comics is set early on in Superman's career, and it's pretty clear that they're moving toward more established character relationships, unless Lois never having dated anybody before Superman was a major plot point in the classic series that I missed.
Lois trusting Superman and loving Superman was a major plot point in the classic series.

An aesthetic change, and an admittedly stupid one. I'd blame Morales quicker than I'd blame Morrison.
Whomever is to blame for that, at least we agree that it is a stupid change.

That's pretty much the sort of thing Golden Age Superman would do all the time. (See: earlier posts from both of us on this thread). Superman's ultimately about inspiring hope, but he's certainly not above intimidating those who threaten the innocent.
He's threatening the general public of Metropolis there. Jerry Siegel's Superman wasn't really angry. Generally he was upbeat, smiling, with a sly sense of humor, and toyed with criminals humorously.

I'm not really gonna defend the new look, but I suspect that was an executive decision at DC, and its effect on the story is pretty minimal. I'm sad to say it, but the era of "lol how come he wear his underwear outside his pants" is over, and the era of "lol how come he finally started wearing his underwear inside his pants" has begun.
I loath the new costumes. The classic iconic costume did not need to be changed to pander to anyone who laughs at Superman's red trunks as underwear on the outside. Superman looks incomplete without his red trunks. Theses drastic reboots of Superman and Wonder Woman in particular has made it clear that Dan DiDio and Jim Lee think that Superman and Wonder Woman are extremely outdated characters and are in need of such drastic reboots.

Half-man, half-bat.
Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe View Post
Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!
Originally Posted by Octoberist View Post
Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

Last edited by theMan-Bat; 12-20-2011 at 05:21 PM.
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