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Old 10-16-2012, 04:48 PM   #595
Nave 'Torment'
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
According to whom?

No it just proves some people are wondering if Batman will ever come back. Coming back implies he's gone. If he's still there lurking then he's not gone at all. He's just in hiding.

There's a big difference.
Well I'm not saying he's actually lurking, but the fact that he's in hiding does imply that he's still out there waiting to come back if the situation calls for it. The next Joker or freak would be mindful of that.

According to the world of the movie -- if Batman has disappeared completely with no trace of his name people (especially Blake, a new character, that orphan, and everyone else) would not have remembered him. He's become folklore for Gothamates based on these examples. If he's still remembered then he is remembered as a vigilante who's willing to commit murder. The reason I'm insisting on this is because it shows us that Gotham City exists in TDKR in a crazy balance where on one side you have the Dent Act perpetually condemning criminals to prison, and on the outside this "silent and watchful guardian" reminding everyone that he's still out there.

That's a terrifying world that's been established if you think about it. I'm just not convinced it's bad writing.

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No he had not. His existence was very factual. He was still blamed for killing Dent and those other people.
Events that happened eight years ago and still being talked about. He's an urban legend in TDKR, like stories or myths that tell us how the world has become the way it is. I don't think we're really disagreeing here coz it's a different issue entirely from what we're talking about here...

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Most definitely.

"Falcone floods our streets with crime, creating new Joe Chills every day. Falcone may not have killed your parents, Bruce. But he's destroying everything they stood for"
True, but I meant were we really mistaken when we thought that Falcone was the one big guy? You said yourself that there was no indication of turf wars, and organised crime really does center itself around one hierarchy, to which the Chetchen and Gambol were probably smaller players who moved up due to the power vacuum. But like you said, this is pure conjecture.

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The way you saw it. Based on what? The mob all seemed on friendly terms in that mob meeting with Joker. You even see Maroni and the Chechen shake hands at the start of it. There's no mention of turf wars, or moving in on someone elses rackets or anything like that.

You've no basis for this at all.
Yes, the way I saw it based on the events in the movie. Some of it is left ambiguous and open to interpretation, that doesn't mean they're false or impossible to interpret in a different way. In other words, conjecture based on the ambiguity of the content can't be disregarded completely since multiple interpretations is very much possible. And I'm fine with the way you've tackled the issue of Batman being a factual figure, of the mob having moved in, but I'm still not convinced of the claim that this is all bad writing.

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No, it didn't. How did it happen?

Where are the legion of freaks you're talking about?
Well, both Harvey and those inmates who worked for the Joker were used as examples for "freaks," fact that there wasn't a full-scale invasion of freaks was a way of showing that Batman won that dispute with the Joker - the Joker "didn't win."

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Except that is again conjecture. You saw a room full of mob guys meeting with Lau to discuss their money. You're trying to tell me out of those twenty something men there only three of them were prominent
Well it goes both ways -- if I'm not told they're mob-bosses I won't assume they're mob-bosses Gambol, Chetchen, Maroni, and Falcone's old empire, that's 4 major mob bosses, I don't think a city could handle any more. When Dent brings them to court they talk about charges ranging from racketeering to fraud, all of which doesn't necessarily have to mean you're a mob boss to do it.

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Complete utter conjecture. No offense but I can't debate with made up fairy tales that the movie does not substantiate in any way. I can go and make up what if scenarios that the movies don't support at all, but what's the point in doing that? We might as well rewrite the whole movie to try and explain away the horrid writing. Which is what you and Shauner11 are doing.
Non-taken, but you can't disregard multiple interpretation completely. Harvey was out for blood to get all the "head-guys" because they had all decided to unleash the Joker on Batman, leading to Rachel's death. The fact is that in TDK they don't portray any other mob-bosses in Gotham City, it's just Gambol, Maroni, and the Chetchen.

So yeah, you may be right in saying that it's unrealistic to assume that after the events of TDK that crime would be wiped out completely, that there would be no one moving up to occupy that power-vacuum that took place in Gotham's underworld at the end of TDK, but looking back the way they told the story was that with Batman, Gordon, Joker, Two-Face, the old ways were gone, there were no more mob guys left and that Joker's "class" of criminals were the only ones left to face -- lunatics who weren't out for money but out for that sort of comic-book world of supervillain vs superhero fix, and Batman's absence left it out.

Come to think of it, I guess Frank Miller's DKR portrayed it better, that the streets were filled with petty thieves and criminals and juveniles like the Mutants while Batman's "rogues gallery" was made redundant because Batman wasn't there anymore (that makes sense to me). So the mobs are gone, the freaks were gone/never germinated (I think Nolan made it a point to keep this obscure), and the petty-criminals were dealt with severely with the Dent Act. So yeah, the streets were cleaned. But it was still rotten.

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If you're going to try and support your argument, use something from the movies that supports your claims.
I am.


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That's my point. Just because someone has gone doesn't mean their actions are not remembered. Isn't that what the whole point of Dent was? He is gone but his memory and actions as D.A. are not forgotten. Isn't that what Batman wanted to do? Inspire people and then retire? But his memory lives on as an inspiration to the people.

Did you ever see Batman Beyond? Set like 50 years into the future. The Jokerz gang were inspired by Joker, even though he'd been dead for decades. Evil can inspire evil minds as much as good ones can inspire good people. That was what Joker was saying when he was talking about bringing a better class of criminals to Gotham. More freaks like him.
Those are again good points, Batman's actions are remembered, but because Batman isn't there any more you don't have another Joker popping out to challenge him (not until Bane at least, but I see him as a further evolution from the rogues gallery). Scarecrow, Joker, Two-Face, Catwoman, these are all "freaks" in the sense we're looking at it. As there were no more Batman (directly) there wasn't any Joker to inspire more crazies. Gotham City in TDKR is a city that has lost its source for inspiration in every area of its culture.

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THE JUSTICE BULLETIN published some of my thematic analysis on the symbolism in Nolan's superhero saga.
I call it Heroic Archetypes. You can read the parts on Batman Begins in the following links:
(pt 1; pt 2; pt 3; pt 4; pt 5; pt 6; pt 7)


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