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Old 12-19-2011, 10:55 PM   #81
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
More cherrypicking, as usual. His initial idea was to get rid of Superboy, but after the reboot was not a full reboot, he realized and even admitted his mistake, and said "I WISH I had Superboy to fill that role." It doesn't get much more clear than that.
Byrne wasn't saying he made a mistake by removing Superboy as if he suddenly realized that Superboy was such a great character and he screwed up. He was say that the Powers That Were at DC double-crossed him by reneged on their promise. After he discovered that DC wouldn't let him do stories of Superman learning the ropes, he wished he had Superboy as a substitute for the learning the ropes stories that he wanted to tell with the adult Superman during his run.

"The deathbed scene, wherein Pa Kent, before dieing, cautioned Clark that he must only use his great powers for the good of Mankind, when Clark had already been doing just what his father bid him to do. Superboy's adventures had made the deathbed scene not only unnecessary, but actually insulting. Pa Kent should be confident enough in the moral upbringing he and Martha had given Clark that he would have no need for that "reinforcement". I decided to go back to Seigel and Shuster and eliminate Superboy from my version -- but keeping certain elements by retaining Ma and Pa Kent as viable characters."

Not really. Especially not when written by Superman's best ever writer, Elliot S. Maggin:

Originally Posted by From Elliot S. Maggin's Last Son of Krypton
The Kents were well past child-rearing age when they found that rocket ship near the old farm. On a vacation they both contracted a rare virus over which even their son had no power. They died within a week of each other, Martha Kent first. Jonathan Kent, on the last day of his life and without his wife for the first time in twoscore years, asked his son to stand next to his bed.

Superboy long ago had learned the story of his origin. His power of total recall accounted for most of the story. He was able to fill in most of the blanks by flying at many times the speed of light through space and overtaking the light rays that left Krypton the day it exploded. In this way he actually saw the drama of his infancy reenacted. He knew that he was Kal-El of Krypton, the son of Jor-El, and possibly the finest specimen of humanity in the galaxy. He had broken the time barrier, he could speak every known language on Earth, living and dead. He had been born among the stars and could live among them now if he so chose. He had more knowledge in his mind and more diverse experience to his credit than any Earthman alive could ever aspire to.

Yet he stood at the deathbed of this elderly, generous man whose last Earthly concern was his adopted son's happiness. Superboy listened, because he believed Jonathan Kent to be wiser than he.

Enough of this clowning around in the circus costume, Jonathan Kent told his son. A man is someone who assumes responsibility. To help people in need is right. To grab at every short-lived wisp of glory that tumbles by is wrong.

"No man on Earth has the amazing powers you have," Jonathan Kent told the mightiest creature on the planet. "You can use them to become a powerful force for good.

"There are evil men in this world, criminals and outlaws who prey on decent folk. You must fight them in cooperation with the law.

"To fight those criminals best you must hide your true identity. They must never know that Clark Kent is a superman. Remember, because that's what you are, a superman."

And the old man died.

The sale of the business left Clark Kent with enough money to study journalism at Metropolis University, and to pay the taxes on the house in Smallville. Superman could not bear to sell it, so he boarded it up.

People would still call him Superboy for a while. Gradually, though, they would realize that he no longer scooted across the sky giggling as he flew into a hail of bullets. He no longer thought battles of wits with criminals were a fun way to spend the afternoon. Superboy would not be back.
Superboy had already had been using his powers for good, so he didn't need the advice.

Alfred actually became a character of more depth by the Bronze Age, IMO, but Miller's retcon with him is not one of his worse ones like what he did to Selina Kyle, which is just basically more of his extreme misogamy. Women under Miller are either whores, victims or butches, and he managed to do all of the above to Catwoman in various series.
Miller made Selina Kyle a dominatrix. How is a dominatrix extremely misogynistic? He didn't make her a whore, a weak victim or a butch lesbian. Women under Miller usually are strong female characters. Assassin Elektra, Head Security Officer Casey McKenna, SHIELD agent Chastity McBryde, Police Commissioner Ellen Yindel, Carrie Kelley Robin, Martha Washington, Assassin Miho, Dominatrix Gail are all strong female characters created by Frank Miller. Carrie Kelley outwitted the mutants and saved Batman's life twice in Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, and lead the Batboys, rescued the Atom and the Flash in Batman: The Dark Knight Strikes Again. That's a strong female. Frank Miller depicted Catwoman as a Dominatrix and Wonder Woman as an aggressive feminist and Black Canary as a strong independent character. Frank Miller's young upbeat walking, running and jumping Batgirl was much more liberated than the grim permanently paralyzed Barbara Gordon by everyone else at DC at the time.

Story was written by Siegel, most likely it was his pitch script, art was by the Shuster studio. Gerard Jones also mentioned in his book Men of Tomorrow that the script was almost certainly Siegel's work.
Other than that one 5 page story, we know that Don Cameron wrote all of the preceding 7 page Superboy stories in More Fun Comics and many in Adventure Comics.
Etc, etc.

Exactly. To say Batman outsold Superman in the 60's is misleading.
Batman did outsell Superman in the '60s from 1966 to 1967.

I never said Superman didn't sell well in the 50's, which had many similar elements to the 60's, just that he sold even more in the 60's, maybe in terms of copies sold, but no doubt he sold more in terms of market share, as the Dell books declined in the mid-60's.
I believe Superman sold more in the '50s. Batman never outsold Superman in the '50s.

I think it's mostly an attempt to undermine the importance of the Silver Age comics and thus bolster the legitimacy of Byrne and Miller's take on Superman.
Nothing to do with the Bronze Age and Modern Age writers Byrne, Maggin, Miller or Morrison. Obviously I have a love for comics history. The Silver Age includes the '50s as well. The Silver Age of comics began in 1954, by the way, not in the '60s. I don't see how I am undermining the Silver Age but stating that I believe that Superman sold more in the '50s.

Half-man, half-bat.
Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe View Post
Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!
Originally Posted by Octoberist View Post
Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

Last edited by theMan-Bat; 12-20-2011 at 04:52 PM.
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