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Old 12-11-2012, 01:05 AM   #235
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Default Re: So now we've seen both, which was the best? - Part 1

Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
Peter Parker may be an outcast socially awkward nerd but he was never a clumsy dork by any means. That is not a good representation of Peter Parker.
Lol, and being an outcast as in TAS-M? We will always disagree, because I take "clumsy dork" any day. That's the Peter I like before the spider bite.

Never said you did. I'm going by the reasons people in the general public say they think Spider-Man is a bad character. Almost all the reasons they bring up are reasons that apply only to Raimi's portrayal of the character and not to any other version.
Simply because Sam Raimi felt as he lost touch to every character in Spider-Man 3 except for J. Jonah Jameson. He made a mess out of Peter Parker by having him cry with every situation, by making Mary Jane Watson a total *****, destroying all hope to make the villains like Sandman and Venom feel like real threats and plenty more.

Yes I have seen them.

That would not be considered smart, or even a nerd. That would be considered just a guy with a really good memory. What you just said about TASM's Peter (that he reads about something the day before) is in fact a compliment and shows that Peter in TASM is a true nerd, because nothing yells more "nerd" than Peter having an incredibly understanding (not just memorizing) of something only a day after he read the thing he now has a major understanding of.
Really? Raimi's Peter only has a good memory? No, now that's just trying to give Raimi's Peter some excuse of why he knows these things. He's an intelligent young man that was able to keep in tide with talking to Otto Octavius even about his project because Peter is that smart.

I'm going by what the GA says. Also, are you sure that the same guy who quits being Spider-Man in SM2 just to be with MJ even though the whole city (minus Jameson) wants him back and openly says many times that they need his help is that heroic? Or the guy who doesn't ever bother to call 911 when he is the only witness to a guy getting his butt whooped on the street? Or the guy who only is motivated enough to become Spider-Man again not after he sees that guy getting beaten up or after he saves that little girl from the fire or after the whole city begs him to come back because they need his help but after his crush gets kidnapped?

And yes, I know that him quitting was also partly due to him losing his powers but the movie greatly implies that his powers are tied to his emotions, which is why he lost them in the first place. So he is still technically at least partly responsible for not being Spider-Man.
He didn't quit FOR MJ. He quit simply because his emotions were straining on his powers.

And when did the GA ever say he wasn't heroic besides what you're saying right now? I've never heard of the general audience saying he isn't heroic.

And may I remind you a powerless Peter Parker saving that little girl in that burning building

He doesn't have to stand up to Flash pre-spider bite. I wouldn't expect pre-spider bite Peter from the comics to do that very often either. But even after he gets the spider bite, he still acts like the same wimp when out of costume.

Yes, it makes a difference. The difference is not that he should "be a man and crush those in his way" (as some alpha males would say) but that he shouldn't be a complete pushover.
Can't say Peter Parker is ever a pushover when he's not inside the Spidey suit, so don't know where you're coming from with that.

Yes we did.

He's still not funny . Or sounds like he has much confidence behind the mask.
Just like Webb's Spider-Man not being funny except for one thing, huh?

Yet still more threatening than all the villains in the Raimi films .

Now you're just sounding biased here. Lizard is more threatening than Green Goblin and Doc Ock? Oh, please.

The difference is that Connors/Lizard is supposed to be sympathetic because that's the way he is in the comics. Norman's Green Goblin, Doc Ock, and Sandman were never sympathetic characters (in the comics, that is). Harry Osborn and Eddie Brock are though but that was poorly executed.

Also, though I think they did a good job with the Lizard and his sympathy, I still would've used a different villain for the movie because I'm personally tired of sympathetic villains in Spider-Man films. It would be nice to get a truly evil villain for once. I hope Electro in TASM 2 will be just that.
Connors is meant to be sympathetic, but not Lizard. Lizard is meant to be this brutal beast and we rarely see these two different personas being shown.

Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
Lines like "Hahaha! So long Spider-Man!", "No one says no to me!" "Join me, Spider-Man!", "I'll destroy you Spider-Man!", and other lines that sounded similar to those came off as really cheesy not just from the wording but from the way Dafoe delivered them. The Green Goblin does talk like that to an extent and has a sense of humor but more in a Joker way. I didn't feel GG to be threatening at all.
None of these lines sound cheesy, especially when just reading these lines in Green Goblin's voice at midnight as I am.

Yes. Pre-spider bite, Peter was a total outcast from most people in the school and had no friends. The only people that payed any attention to him were the popular kids like Flash Thompson that always bullied him. Other than that, everyone just ignored him completely. He becomes less of an outcast after he gets bit by the spider. TASM got this right. We see him by the end hanging out with Gwen, being cool with Flash, and dressing less like an outcast nerd and more like your average teenage kid.
Of course Peter rarely had friends, but dressing up as he did in Webb's film...did Peter ever dress like that?

He was a nerd and an outcast originally (save for Harry and Gwen who were his only friends and for the people that bullied him like Flash and Liz) and then slowly deviated away from that after the spider-bite. TASM did the same thing and it will continue to be shown even more in the sequels when he meets Harry, MJ, and other people at Empire State.
Two different things. Nerd and outcast, and Peter has always been just a nerd. A total outcast of dressing like a bum, skateboarding, WANTING to be alone. That's not Peter, imo. He's a smart kid being forced to be alone as he's just made fun of and bullied constantly by Flash.

And that's exactly what happened. He became more self confident and not just to the woman he loves. And like I said, this will presumably continue in the sequels unless Webb pulls a TDKR and ignores/contradicts all the stuff from the previous films . lol
Too bad TDKR didn't do that, but okay.

And it's fine if you like Peter being confident to the woman he loves, but so did Peter once he and MJ finally started to date. So your point?

Two differences between Nolan's Batman and Raimi's Peter:
1) Peter's intelligence is all "tell but don't show". You never see him using his wits at all and it's like the writers don't even try to show that.
They didn't show it simply because it doesn't do anything with the story such as if Nolan forced a situation with Batman using his detective skills.

2) BB and TDK are based on stories taking place in Batman's early career as a crimefighter, Year One and Long Halloween respectively. BB and Year One both take place in Bruce's first year as Batman and TDK and Long Halloween both take place in his second year as Batman. If you compare Batman in BB to Batman in Year One, he's not that different in terms of detective skills and how much he uses them. Then if you compare Batman in TDK to Batman in Long Halloween, he's not that different in terms of detective skills either. So Nolan's Batman's detective skills fit with the time in which Batman's career is taking place in. Of course the whole point was to further expand on this and to show how Bruce becomes the veteran experienced Batman as years pass by but TDKR kinda destroyed that progress. But hey, you already know my thoughts on TDKR so I won't get into that here.
The fact that Nolan only gave his version of Batman only a few years, one would expect to give Bruce exceptional skills, but even from the beginning, he is taught by ninjas without having any skills from any other area. Saying it should've grown once again is an interpretation on your behalf when it should have been established first before it expanded and it was never established of Batman ever having detective skills or what have you.

And yes, I am aware of how you feel about TDKR. You are aware of my feelings towards the movie as well, yes? Notice my sig?

Nothing here. I agree in this case. To each his own as yes, the third movie was the worst one in terms of quips (and in terms of everything).

Tell that to everyone in my theater that jumped during that closet scene and during the sewer scene.

The main scary thing about the sewer scene was that it felt very real. It felt as if Peter was going to die there. You could almost put yourself in Peter's shoes and imagine that you were there underwater being drowned by a giant green Lizard monster.
I would tell that to everyone in your theatre, or I'd just laugh that they would get scared so easily.

And if you were to say the idea of death was what was really scary, then I assume you had that feeling with every battle he had with Lizard since he could've died in any of those scenarios.

Sure. I have an open mind. I'm willing to listen.
The idea of wanting to "help" NYC when it's just a mindless idea that everyone seems to have a problem as Connors does is a head scratcher.

It does for me. It feels like a different movie with a different story by the time we get to the GG vs Spider-Man stuff. It's as if they quickly rushed to get the origin out of the way and then when they got to the grad scene, they said "Okay, now we can begin telling the story we want to tell".
So you should know how I feel with TAS-M. The origin part was the funnest part of the film as Webb finally got into CBM territory with having Spidey vs Lizard that was just a bore and had a very different tone after the first hour that feels like nothing like the first sixty minutes.

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko View Post
Well yeah, I agree that Spider-Man 2 is in the same hemisphere as TDK. But I think that Spider-Man 1 is right below it.

Here is how I generally categorize some of them:

Best of the best: SM2, TDK, TDKR, Avengers, Superman: The Movie, Superman II
Great: SM1, BB, Iron Man, X2: X-Men United, Thor, Captain America
Good: TASM, X-Men
Okay: IM2, TIH
Bad: SM3, X3, Batman Forever
Disgustingly Bad: Batman & Robin, Superman IV
TDKR in the same league as TAS-M?

That's sad to think.

Definitely disagree with certain parts of your list, and the bold would be my changes.

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