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Old 03-24-2013, 02:59 PM   #541
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight View Post
^^^Convenient that it occurred right before Bruce was about to shoot him? Perhaps. But the difference is that Falcone made the judge make the trial public to get Chill into the open so he could do just that.

Yeah. Bruce is right there, about to fire. He's even ahead of the hit-woman until she passes ahead through the crowd. He's close, he's gonna do it, and, BLAM, didn't get the chance.

I feel that's convenient, a coincidence. Don't you? Yes, Falcone paid the Judge to get her out there, but at the exact second Bruce is about to do it.

It's a moot point though because, well, we wouldn't get the story we got would we? Same with Batman. It's whatever the writers write.

Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight View Post
Joker knows that Gordon would bring him back to the MCU, presumably from Harvey calling it his fortress it's got a bit of a reputation for that.
Yup. No arguments there. Dent was seriously doubtful of holding Lau at the MCU. With what was going on in Gotham, who could blame him?

Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight View Post
As for the bomb part, the fact that Joker's the only one standing still confuses me a bit so I can't defend that one since I agree with it. Contrived though? I wouldn't say so. But it is something that's just not right, in my opinion. But, I wouldn't use contrived as the word.

So you think it's not right an unnatural that he's the only one left standing in the same room of a group of people (that all just so happen to get knocked out, not even die).

That is contrived isn't it?


1. Deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.
2. Giving a sense of artificiality

It's deliberately created to get the Joker out of the MCU with Lau. You also stated that it feels just plain odd.

The Dark Knight is my favorite Batman film, The Joker is my favorite villain, but having him be the last one standing in a blast from another building is crazy. Especially when they're all close to the Joker, including Stephens. So they just all passed out on the floor? Sure the explosion was shocking and unexpected, but they just got knocked out while the Joker strolled off with Lau and taking the cop cars too boot?

Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight View Post
You find it contrived that the leader of the LOS would go find recruits himself and train them? Ra's seemed quite the hands on type from what I've read in comics as well. Why lie about his identity? Because he's no longer a target. He controls the league through a puppet and people wouldn't target him as they may if they knew he was in charge.

Alternately, Ra's al Ghul is a title. Depends which you would rather believe.

I believe you mean Falcone here, right? Well, personally I don't see a problem with the two sharing a prison cell for a while. But, if you think it's contrived, sure. I'd agree with you if Falcone and Bruce had a prior history though. But, seeing as Bruce only seeks Falcone out after Falcone kills Chill, I don't see it as contrived.

What's contrived about Crane working for the LOS? Or do you mean Falcone working with Crane? How is that contrived? Crane and Ra's were using the man in control of the docks to bring in shipments of their drugs under the nose of the law.

How it's all connected is coincidental, especially when Gotham and the Himalayas are worlds apart. It makes the world feel a lot smaller, doesn't it? Now again, I have no problem with it, Ra's says himself, "we have infiltrated every level of its infrastructure".

But let's look at something,

Bruce falls into a well and is afraid of bats. That fear leads to him leaving the opera theater with his parents. When they go out, Joe Chill kills them in cold blood, he's soon caught. Joe Chill did it out of desperation and poverty. It's implied and stated by Ra's that they sought to cripple Gotham financially, creating Joe Chill's everyday. Thomas and Martha Wayne tried to combat the very thing that killed him, and it's all because of Ra's and the LoS.

Now, not only that, but Joe Chill was in prison with Falcone. Falcone blabbed and can't risk Chill blabbing too. So, on the court day, the big day for Bruce Wayne, the day he's going to shoot down the guy that murdered his parents, Falcone has paid off Judge Fayden so that his hitwoman can blow away Joe Chill. She does this literally seconds before he gets the chance.

Now, NOT ONLY THAT, but Bruce runs off to go and find himself and is found by none other than Ra's Al Ghul himself. The guy that was connected/responsible to the death of his parents inadvertently (with the financial and poverty scheme). Bruce trains with this man, then finds, to his horror, their big plan is not to restore world order, but to take down his home city. GOTHAM city. A city in which, Ra's and the League are already involved with the likes of several of the people Batman runs into on his own. Crane, Falcone (who are both puppets).

Everything just happens to fall into place in a nice big convenient circle where everyone's actions are connected.

The death of Thomas and Martha Wayne aren't the big picture anymore. It isn't a petty crime of a desperate man, there's a BIGGER picture there. One in which the League of Shadows are the main cause.

Do you see what I'm getting at when I say it's a crazy coincidence? The whole "world" of Batman Begins is interconnected by coincidence and happenstance, but Batman dropping Jack Napier, creating the Joker, the guy that killed his parents decades before creating him is too much? That doesn't seem right, does it?

I mean, we can explain everything in '89, just like I did above with Begins. Jack Napier, a young mobster, kills Thomas and Martha Wayne and spares Bruce. He sadistically threatens the boy before running off (the papers read UNIDENTIFIED GUNMAN, LEAVES CHILD UNHARMED). Bruce is traumatized, the Batman persona emerges and he fights crime and corruption in Gotham City. This corruption includes boss Carl Grissom, a mob boss that controls most of Gotham and the GCPD. His right hand man is none other than Jack Napier, the man that killed Bruce Wayne's parents.

After an anonymous tip (Carl Grissom tipping off the police that his man Jack Napier is at Axis Chemicals), the cops want to pursue Jack Napier because if they can catch him, they can connect everything to Grissom and throw the book at him (Harvey Dent).

Batman moves in to bring Jack Napier down. He goes to Axis Chemicals, carefully subduing each and every thug. He gets to Jack Napier, the main man everyone wants to get to Grissom who is nearing the exit sign. Instead of simply leaving though, Jack lingers and gets his revenge on Lt. Eckhart. Batman moves in, Jack fires, and Batman deflects it with his armor gauntlet and the bullet flies through Napier's face. He falls over the rail, Batman loses his grip, and he takes the plunge creating the Joker.

We know the rest of the story, Batman vs. Joker. Even before Bruce looks into it, he has a hunch that Joker and Napier are one in the same. He gets all the files on Napier (a file that contains a mugshot of a young Jack Napier, one that Bruce is too preoccupied to see while he's trying to combat the Joker's plans). In an encounter with the Joker, Bruce recognizes the trait from decades earlier, a man grinning at him sadistically with a pistol and his line. It snaps the memory, the reason Batman even exists. Bruce looks into it further, fully understanding that the man that killed his parents long ago is the same man that his poisoning his city and is a threat to everyone's well being. The same man that's haunted his dreams is the same man he's been battling and foiling. The same man who's face is staring at him from the several monitors of his computer.

That's all I'm getting at. I'm not trying to bring down Begins to raise up '89, or vice versa. I'm just saying, it's pretty much the same thing and that all these Batman films have coincidences and there are Batman films that are far, far more crazy with tons of coincidences and contrition going on. And if we're going after it for "comic accuracy". Well, Joker killing Bruce's parents is no more comic accurate than, "Ra's The League of Shadows train Bruce Wayne and decades earlier, they were the cause of financial poverty and desperation and inadvertently caused the death's of Bruce Wayne's parents". And Penguin being a Gotham sewer freak thrown out by his parents instead of a weapons dealer is no more accurate than Bane being a Gotham sewer freak who was released from prison by the LoS instead of a self-made, honorable man.

See what I mean?

Oh, and fun fact. The guy that created HENRI DUCARD in the comics (Ra's Al Ghul in the Begins film) was Sam Hamm. Sam Hamm was the writer that wrote most of '89 Batman.

"I made you, you made me first".

Last edited by milost; 03-24-2013 at 03:08 PM.
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