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Old 04-30-2009, 09:07 PM   #35
TMNT 1984-2009
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Brooklyn, NY, US of A
Posts: 21,789
Exclamation Re: Avengers cartoon

Originally Posted by TheVileOne View Post
-Pointless romances to nowhereville! No resolution to the Shayera/Vixen/John triangle. It went nowhere. Lame. Wonder Woman/Batman. Green Arrow/Black Canary. The only relationships that got the most closure were freaking Huntress and Question and . . . BRANIAC 5 and Kara. Are you kidding me? Kara decides to be with a guy she met five hours earlier? WTF?!

-Make up your damn minds about Hawkman.

-Terry McGinnis is Bruce Wayne's son! Through a series of coincidental coincidences, Terry McGinnis the genetic son of Bruce Wayne actually became Batman simply due to a series of coincidental coincidences! Complaints from years earlier of this new Batman being Bruce Wayne's son are finally realized. After 52 episodes of trying to convince us we should like Terry for being Terry . . . oh he's Bruce's son.

-Hawk and Dove episode. Thank you liberal anti-war writers. Yes, the best way for the Justice League to win is through NON-VIOLENCE! Oh wait . . .

-Braniac being behind Cadmus. Most of the Cadmus stuff I found very annoying and politically apparent for the most part.

-Super-intelligent talking Doomsday.

-I didn't like the UNLIMITED cast. I love Booster Gold but we only got one actual Booster Gold episode. I hated this. I want a core cast with some recurring or one-off guest stars. I don't like how you can just throw all these characters in there and have them do nothing even though they are all officially on the team.

-Time travel season finale with Kronos - freaking awful, especially with the way they just killed Terry.
This will get too long and off topic if I respond to all of this individually, but I never intended to, I just wanted to know your opinion. And to be honest there are a bit of these criticisms that I agree with. Hawkman's continuity in the DCU has been a mess for years, and while Geoff Jones managed to make it work there, instead they chose to make Hawkman rather complicated in JLU, too. It wasn't terrible but quite convoluted, with him coming off as a stalker who happened to be some Egyptian reincarnated guy. The "HAWK AND DOVE" episode was one of the "MEH at best" episodes of JLU, not too far away from Paul Dini's "THE LITTLE PIGGY" (which was better only because it was not meant to be taken seriously). Beyond the gimmick of reuniting Fred Savage and Jason Havery from "THE WONDER YEARS" as Hawk & Dove, the episode didn't have much going for it beyond the Annihilator armor itself, which was used for better effect in "TASK FORCE X" and "THE BALANCE" (when it was possessed by Felix Faust).

I also agree that the tacked on "retcon" of making Terry McGinnis the biological son of Bruce Wayne, albeit via Camdus cloning and manipulations, was a bit much, and not something I was a fan of. "EPILOGUE" was a strong episode overall, but I never cared for that revelation. When BATMAN BEYOND was on, there were a lot of people who disliked Terry or didn't believe he was "worthy" of becoming the new Batman because he wasn't related to Wayne, Grayson, or even Drake via blood or something. To me, that criticism of BEYOND missed the point entirely. Wayne himself became Batman after a tragedy of fate, a lot of soul searching and yes, even needing mentors in his youth (such as Alfred Pennyworth, Leslie Thompkins, Yoru-Sensei and even Zatara the Magician, according to "The Timmverse" of cartoons). Terry had essentially become Batman the same way, boiled down (only he had a retired Wayne himself as a mentor, who he relied on less by the last season of BEYOND). There was no need to "answer" some fan criticisms about 5 years too late.

I even agree that some of the relationship tension was never satisfied completely. While we learned that Warhawk of the BEYOND reality was the son of John Stewart and Shayera, the series ends with John not wanting to be the pawn of destiny and "choosing" Vixen. While we know the two likely reunite later on, it was easy to feel a little cheated. While I understand that Batman is the perennial bachelor (and according to BATMAN BEYOND, was likely saving himself for Talia Al-Ghul), it was a bit silly for Batman to "fear" for Wonder Woman's safety considering she could probably defeat at least half of his rogues gallery, single handedly, in a single brawl. I agree that it would have been interesting to have the two go all the way a bit, beyond just a kiss and a lot of flirting. Not everyone "shipped" for this couple, though. I thought Green Arrow and Black Canary were clearly a double by "DOUBLE DATE" (the title itself was rather obvious about that). Ollie had won Dinah's respect in "THE CAT AND THE CANARY".

(Besides, if you want a "nowheresville" relationship, WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN had a few. Logan has not one, but two failed romances with Mariko and Mystique that exist only to provide flashbacks. The biggest relationship "triangle" is between Cyclops/Emma/Jean, with Jean being off camera or possessed (or having amnesia) for most of that time. The ending was tragic but not terribly satisfying. Not once did Cyclops even seem to consider Frost's feelings, and it is hard to root for Jean as a Maguffin Princess. X-MEN EVOLUTION made a better show of Cyclops/Rogue/Jean.)

I liked the fact that Doomsday could talk, since he usually had been a boring, stock monster in the comics; allowing him to talk allowed him to appear more cunning and even malicious and sadistical. Albeit he clearly is supposed to be an alien in "A BETTER WORLD" and then they retcon that in "THE DOOMSDAY SANCTION", but, HUSH. While the two part finale to JLU Season 1 with Chronos was a bit awkward (and the Western episode, while fun, was really kind of filler), I did like it overall. Terry didn't "really" die, even if he was a bit useless in that fight at the end. But, c'mon, you had three Batmen in the room! I guess "THE ONCE AND FUTURE THING" was similar to some of the 2 part episodes of JUSTICE LEAGUE; the first 25-35 minutes or so a little hum-drum, and then the last 15 kick ass. For me, it is better to have a good ending than merely a good beginning. WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN had some decent build-up but a bit of a rushed and shallow pay off so far.

As for the cast, the nature of the 60+ hero roster was something akin to HE-MAN AND THE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE, where many never were intended to exist beyond appearing in background animation, and one or two of those middling characters got an episode here and there. There were secondary leaguers that rose to the fore, like Supergirl, Green Arrow, Huntress, Question, Black Canary, Captain Atom, Atom, and even Steel to a small degree. To be fair, considering how many characters in WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN either existed just for a power (Storm and Iceman come to mind, as well half of the Future X-Men of 2020), and how many were just vague ciphers (Shadowcat, Forge, to a degree Beast by the end of the show), it is curious that you feel this way. Granted, some could argue whether JLU repeating the "overloaded cast" idea of HE-MAN or shows from the 80's some twenty years later was a good idea. It took them a while to get used to that cast, and it was awkward at times. I was once so irritated that Flash sat out a season that I made this "Missing" pic:

Flash would step up later, though, in a big, big way. You've tried to convince me that Colossus will in W&TXM. He absolutely won't, because I doubt Kyle & Johnson give two ****'s about him, but it's a nice gesture to hope about.

While I thought the Camdus arc with the finale against "Lexiac" was epic, I do concede that it was a little awkward that the major crux of Camdus, the "U.S. trying to curtail demigod superheroes" angle was completely dropped, and resolved in a bit of a weak way in "PATRIOT ACT" (Gen. Eiling essentially becomes the Hulk, pummels seven human heroes, has to be told by a friggin' kid and old lady he has become his enemy, and escapes). But overall that arc was good.

In the end, to me JLU was a great show that had flaws, kind of like FULL METAL ALCHEMIST. That is not the same as a pedestrian show that has moments. Of which I hope AVENGERS: EMH won't be.

I don't see anyone making these excuses. You are making things up. I've only said before that there is a precedent for Wanda/Scarlett Witch being a hero in animation before in the Avengers cartoon in Iron Man in the 90's, and in the X-men 90's series in her appearance she wasn't exactly a Brotherhood member or out and out villain.

In Wolverine and the X-men, she's a member of Magneto's Brotherhood and clearly Magneto's daughter. She believes in Genosha and mutants having a utopia. But she eventually does the right thing and trusts the man she loves and casts out her own father because he went too far. Ultimately in the series Wanda makes the "morally" right choices mainly due to the influence Nightcrawler had on her.
What likely helps fuel my irritation is that Marvel Comics, which, I know, isn't the same as their animation arm, have treated the Maximoff twins as terrorists for five years and acted like it was always their ideal state; seeing two generations of cartoons do that at the same time was annoying. And yes, I know about Mighty Avengers.

That said, though, while I was not a fan of yet another cartoon with Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver on the Brotherhood as if by mandate, Wanda was one of the few characters besides Wolverine in WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN who was fleshed decently. Kate Higgins voiced her well, she had a good design and a decent place in the show. Out of Magneto's three children, she was the practical, level headed one whose morals started to conflict with what Magneto was doing. Her relationship with Nightcrawler...well, it was budding. With this show coming out in 2012, it would be cute of they ever used Scarlet Witch, they used the version from W&TXM, which by then would be on a third season (probably fighting Evil Cyclops in the year 3999 with Cable or something) to carry it over. To build a Kyle/Johnson/Yost-verse, if you will. It could be fun. Despite my whining I am actually not the biggest fan of Wanda, but W&TXM did make her interesting. It might be cool if A:EMH nudged at existing in the same "universe". I mean, hey, at Comic Con Kyle & Yost wanted to do an X-MEN VS. AVENGERS movie; why not start that rumbling by having loose ties between these TV shows, and then really amping up that DTV, making it worth something, like an OAV. Watch the sales for it soar!

Considering Peter was still in high school when that show was made. Yeah returning to an idea set up OVER FORTY YEARS EARLIER! Its still something different than what the other shows were doing before which was a fully adult or young adult Peter.
True, and it took modern updates from the movies, Ultimate Spider-Man and the show's writers to really make it work.

There's a precedent for a teenage Iron Man in the comics. I'm not a huge fan of the stories but they are there. The way I see it, in Avengers we are getting a fully adult, non-teenaged Tony Stark Iron Man as the founder of the Avengers so I don't see much good in complaining about Iron Man adventures right now.

Also, just remember that Iron Man was all Marvel, NickToons didn't come into the equation until last year.

Now I've watched the new show and while I don't really like it a lot, I see a lot of upsides and benefits the show can have in building an audience and its own storyline to get more young people into Marvel characters. That's a noble and positive goal for such a series. I think the superhero squad series will be much the same way.
Arno Stark sucked.

The problem is that young people don't read mainstream comics. They read manga (or rather, download manga). Marvel and DC have done everything but sell virgin souls to get people who were too young to drink to read comics, and they've failed by and large. IRON MAN ADVENTURES or MARVEL SUPERHERO SQUAD may do great ratings, but while that puts cash in Marvel's coffers, it doesn't help the comics line at all.

I'd honestly be more enthused to watch IRON MAN ADVENTURES if not for the teeny bopper angle (or the generic looking CGI animation).

Umm where does it say that Yost is the ONLY staff writer and is going to be carrying the entire workload all by himself? You single Yost out but I doubt he is the only driving creative source of the series.

And yes he will. I feel this show will find a good middle ground without having to go as far as Ultimate Avengers. Next Avengers was a pretty perfect classic interpretation of Ultron. That's the Ultron I hope we see in the new Avengers show. Ruthless, cold, and relentless.
Yost I believe will be a story editor or producer on this show, which means that even the episodes he doesn't actually write or co-write will have to match his vision for the show. His view on what this show has to be will influence the entire series bible and grind of episodes. Honestly I am curious how he will handle a major project like this without Craig Kyle along for the ride for most of it. I am pulling for him; he wrote a few episodes of the 2k3 TMNT, after all (back when it was good).

I totally agree about Ultron. He was the highlight of NEXT AVENGERS. I stick to my assertion that he was so cool that he deserved a better movie with better adversaries. If we get that Ultron in this series (and they can even have Tom Kane reprise the role if they wish), that'd be epic.

Thor was facing an off the rails and magically empowered Hulk. And his personality was pretty classically Thor rather than the mishmash that was in Ultimate Avengers.
Yeah, I did get that it was essentially "classic Thor" and that portrayal alongside the tour through Asgard was pretty much why I enjoyed HULK VS. THOR despite the fact that the fight wasn't even a challenge. Plus, Loki and Enchantress were rather smashing, too.

That brings me to another point; hopefully Hulk won't be too unbeatable or invincible here. If he is seriously going to be part of the team for a whole season or so, then they can't rely on him to pummel every threat. Strength should only get you so far in Avengers without other powers or teamwork to prevail.

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