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Old 05-06-2012, 04:47 PM   #62
henzINNIT's Avatar
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

Originally Posted by The Guard View Post
I cannot agree with you.

Berry's conversations in X-MEN and X2 are relevant to the core themes of X-MEN, not neccessarily Storm herself. They're single scenes that are then never addressed again. And Berry didn't play them all that well. Davidson and Cumming did, but Berry is just kind of there, doing her best. She did better in X3.

Storm has her POV about the cure
Storm has her leadership aspect
She has her interactions with Wolverine
She takes over as a teacher
She has more varied power usage

She's not anything approaching good in her performance in X3. But she gives a better, more nuanced performance in X3, and displays more emotional range than she did in either previous film.
There's not a lot I can say tbh. She's just terrible in this film. I can think of 3 seperate instances where a scene ends on one of her lines and they're all total bum notes. When she first hears about the cure and ends the scene with her little speech to Rogue, when she tells Logan that he needs to "be with us", and when everyone boards the X-Jet and she asks Logan if he's "ready to do what he needs to when the time comes". She's just plain horrible.

While it would have been nice to have seen some conflict over killing Jean, we never saw Storm and Jean as very good friends in the series. Berry was aware that this wasn't the Jean they all knew. Cyclops and Xavier had been killed. The stakes were high. And the scene was more about making Wolverine aware of his role in things than her own emotions. Actually, there's an undercurrent of her holding her emotions in check as the film wears on, VS the opening scene, where's she's causing storms.
Jean and Storm seemed pretty close in X2, at least to me... Just the slightest bit of conflict would have been nice. Even just a a line to identify how/why Storm can tell so definitively that Jean is gone (especially as we the audience are shown that she is still in there).

And I agree with you, but its the same type of issue we saw with Iceman/Pyro in X2. Their issues serve to flesh out the core themes, not neccessarily interesting character elements. This is a weakness of the franchise's use of supporting characters, not X3 alone.
Tu Quoque, but I still don't agree. I can tell from X2 that Ice-man is a nice guy with a sense of humour, he's not particularly aggressive and enjoys playing around, including with his power. He's well adjusted, but has a slightly passive aggressive relationship with Wolverine over Rogue's affection.
Pyro is a bit of an ass. He's angry, likes to tease people and reacts viloently when his power is questioned. He is easily seduced by Magneto because feeling superior is very appealing to him.

Angel is very different. He doesn't really interact with anyone, and so we're never given anything about what he's like as a person. We can tell he was ashamed of his mutation as a kid, doesn't agree with the cure later on; yet we don't even know why he runs away. Huge disappointment, and a total waste of a good idea. For all we know, Angel refued the treatment cause he was scared of needles.

The "relationship" wasn't excellently handled in either previous film, either. Its actually got more to it in X3, aside from Logan recognizing Jean didn't want him more than she loved Cyclops. Again, I'm not saying it's great, but it's not an issue that solely X3 had.
Tu Quoque again, and again, I don't agree. There wasn't a whole lot to Logan and Jean in X1 & X2, but it wasn't used to anchor those films so it doesn't matter.

I don't treat his arc as a tick box of ability displays either. Logan has a very clear arc in X3, an extension and development of his story from X-MEN and X3. He is starting to become much less concerned with himself, as evidenced by the way he takes over mentoring some of the younger X-Men, and the way he goes after Jean. It's not Wolverine's story as much as X-MEN and X2 were, though he is still arguably the main character.

No...they didn't forget about him saying he's just passing through...they developed him to the point where he decides to stick around. That's his arc.
It's not an extension of his previous arc, it's a retread. The film purposely starts with him being reluctant and distant, to the extent that he doesn't even seem to be staying there for any extend period of time. That doesn't mesh with X2 where his arc culminated in choosing the Xmen. I think it's bad writing to reset that, especially when he moves no further beyond that point. TLS ends, and he's chosen to be an X-Man... just like the last film.

The love story is missing a key player? Then perhaps it's not a love story. Not in the conventional sense.
Well it sure does play out like an every day love tradegy. Jean may not love Logan, but her role in the film isn't large enough to actually incorporate what she feels. The film we do get is about a man who has to kill his lover. It's no more complicated than that, even it if evidently should be.

In X2, we learn that Pyro is jealous of Bobby and his family in X2, and that he recognizes how far above humans he can be. He takes steps, when he attacks the cops.

That is expanded on in X3. He's looking to belong, he resents people who fear/would cure mutants, and he joins the Brotherhood and becomes a terrorist. I'm not saying it's a great character arc, but it's every bit as well handled as what was found in X2. A glance at a picture does not a compelling character/arc make.
That glance in X2 doesn't make an arc, but it tells us a lot more about Pyro than we learn in the next film. As for the arc, that is covered by the choice he makes at the end of the film, to abandon his firends and join Magneto.

He doesn't do anything in TLS. He starts on the path he joined in X2, and the film ends with him exactly the same, albeit unconscious/dead.

I'm not sure why'd you'd think that. There's a very clear conflict there, not just between he and Eric, who have ideological differences, but between he, Jean, and The Dark Phoenix. He held Jean back, he recognizes the threat she's become, and he does his best to stop her

It's a death, but it's also the culmination of his character arc, and his greatest failure. What "substance" are you looking for that wasn't there? The death had an obvious impact, on multiple levels, for multiple characters.
I like how the X/Jean/Magneto dynamic is presented from the different times in her life, but there's little pay-off from the second time around. Magneto is great, goading her and manipulating her, but there's very little consequence to his actions. He got Charles killed, and while there is a nice moment later on that shows what Charles meant Mags, he goes on with his plan a little too easily after seeing just how dangerous Jean is.
Jean on the other hand is just damn unreliable. Famke acts her ass off in this film, but the inside of Jean's head is a bag of cats. Charles' last words to her are "don't let it control you", and we sadly don't see very much in the way of internal conflict until her very last scene where she has Logan kill her.
Finally, Charles fails to contain Jean and dies. Boom, heartbreaking. Not enough emotional weight, we didn't see how much Jean meant to him, how much he meant to Jean. How important Scott was to either of them. This should be the very foundation of the team being uprooted here, but as I have said previously, it just isn't sure if this should be tragic or kind of ironic.

I don't think he looked like an ass. That seems to be your assessment. I think he made a judgement call. It was perhaps the wrong one, as the film shows.

What do you mean what are you supposed to feel when he dies? It's an intense scene. Horror. Some sympathy for Xavier. Pride. Whatever you feel when people give their all and die.

It's BOTH a tragic event AND the consequence of meddling. Tragic, because of his role in forming and guiding the X-Men, and the loss of his leadership, and obviously the result of something he perhaps should not have done.

What he did to Jean isn't what I'm refering to (although we are shown painfully little of why he made his choice. Jean seemed pretty stable in the flashback), what I'm refereing to is how he cusses out Logan for questioning his decision. It's totally out of character, and not only diminishes the wisdom and likability of Xavier, but it makes his decision to go inside of Jean's head questionable because he apparently struggles to defend it. I can buy that Xavier is the kind of guy smart enough to make a "terrible choice", because he's smart and compassionate. *****ing out and getting defensive undermines that completely.

In a film so brief, you really don't want this being the most memorable thing a character does before he dies.

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