Freedom of Religion in America?

[raybia]

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.

My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a crache, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship movie stars and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too.

In light of the many jokes we se nd to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are,but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'

In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was mur dered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing?

Funny how when you forward this message, y ou will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.

Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in. My best regards.

Honestly and respectfully,
Ben Stein

[Superhobo]

I'm weary of taking anything Ben Stein puts out too seriously.

[StorminNorman]

Originally Posted by Superhobo

I'm weary of taking anything Ben Stein puts out too seriously.

Ben Stein is one of the most intelligent people in this country I would wager.

I believe this very article was discussed - if not last Winter Season, the season before. I do not remember when it was published.

[Lighthouse]

Originally Posted by StorminNorman

Ben Stein is one of the most intelligent people in this country I would wager.

I believe this very article was discussed - if not last Winter Season, the season before. I do not remember when it was published.

Ben Stein is extremely intelligent, but there is a difference between knowing a lot of stuff(intelligence), and how you interpret and use that knowledge(wisdom).

[Superhobo]

Originally Posted by StorminNorman

Ben Stein is one of the most intelligent people in this country I would wager.

I believe this very article was discussed - if not last Winter Season, the season before. I do not remember when it was published.

No.

[Lighthouse]

Can you really not read the bible in school? Can you really not pray when you want to? Are people really trashing God and not just trashing hypocritical and fear mongering religions? He makes a lot of leaps of logic. One doesn't necessarily follow the other.

[Superman4ever]

I'm a Muslim and LOVE the holiday season when everyone is cheering 'Merry Christmas' or 'Happy Holidays'. Moreover, Islamic holidays have coincided with Christian/Jewish ones these past 7-8 years or so, and it's been really nice. Cherry on top, if you will! I absolutely don't feel threatened by Manger scenes. However, a separation of church and state MUST NOT be compromised. EVER!

The religious right eats this crap up. Of course they want bibles in school and preachers outside school doors "saving" people. However, if they can have bibles in school then Muslim student MUST have time alloted for prayer. Every test a Muslim student turns in should have the student's proclimation, "In the Name of Allah the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful!" Islamic studies MUST be taught and must be by Islamic Scholors who are Muslim. If the bible is allowed to be read, then so must the Qur'an. If Priests litter school door steps, Atheist have the right to get up in their grill and tell them to:

[QueerMike]

Originally Posted by Superman4ever

Who's this crybaby?

[Bill]

Penn

[Addendum]

The interesting thing that some forget is that when the US was still a collection of colonies under Britain, the various colonial governments tried making one religion THE religion of the colony. That led to various persecutions and killings of those who didn't believe the same as those in charge, even if the difference in beliefs was nothing more that a denominational difference. With the ratification of the Bill of Rights in 1791, the "freedom of religion" part of the first amendment (actually the third, as the first of Madison's amendments has yet to be ratified, and the second didn't get ratified until 1992 as the 27th amendment), those in government knew that to be free to worship if one so choose, was to not limit what religion would be allowed, but to allow all.

[Jerry!]

How can intelligent people like Ben Stein buy into such a ******** story? I don't get it. Want to know what's REALLY funny Ben Stein? When hundreds, maybe thousands of years from now, when and if our collective time on earth dies out and the next civilization rises up and looks back at the stuff we believed in, they will laugh and think it's funny and silly. Just like we laugh and think it's funny and silly people that before our time hundreds of years ago worshiped multiple gods, fire gods, water gods, etc.

It's all the same stuff folks, the same made up BS we keep feeding ourselves to make our lives seem more important and meaningful, that we are not alone, that there is always more to it than there really is. It's the best magic trick of all time. And it certainly helps control us.

[Danalys]

it's just more back handed if you're not religious you're immoral retoric. also i was under the impression that it was only people of authority leading people to pray that was abondoned. you can't really stop some one silently praying of their own accord, nor should you.

[Addendum]

Originally Posted by Danalys

it's just more back handed if you're not religious you're immoral retoric. also i was under the impression that it was only people of authority leading people to pray that was abondoned. you can't really stop some one silently praying of their own accord, nor should you.

I thought so as well. I think student-led is out, though I could be wrong.

[Danalys]

well no one should be leading anyone to pray in schools. i think i remember a story about cheerleaders kicking out a girl because she wouldn't pray with them.

[Franklin Richards]

What? I can't have a moral compass AND be an atheist?

Give me your money Ben and shut the **** up.

[Manic]

I'm a Christian, but come the F on, Stein. A lack of religion doesn't make people amoral. Kids aren't shooting up schools because they haven't found god. There are laws telling them not to do that crap. Telling them an almighty being beyond the stars doesn't want them to do it won't exactly deter them. To paraphrase Chris Rock, what happened to "crazy"?

On another note, let's talk about the separation of church and state. That law was written because of how some of the British settlers came to the American colonies. Some of them were kicked out of England for their beliefs. When Henry VIII switched the entire country from Catholicism to the Church of England, followed by his kids each switching back and forth between the two, it created a religious divide among the Brits. A group called the Puritans arose from the dust, and quite frankly, nobody liked them. They were eventually kicked out of England, and forced to move to the American colonies. And yes, these were the same idiots that would eventually hang and roast their neighbors for being witches because they committed such evil acts as dancing and eating their bread butter-side down.

When all was said and done, the framers decided not to create an official religion for the United States, and instead opted for the freedom to worship however you like. And that's what freedom of religion is. That's the separation of church and state. It's the government not telling who or what to worship, or how to do it.

To me, that means no forced prayer in schools, but allowing students and teachers to pray whenever they want. It means you can teach kids about a religion if they're studying the background of a culture (history class, social studies, ect. I dare you to teach a kid the history of Israel/Palestine without bringing up religion), but you can't force them to follow any of it. It means if the mayor or governor puts up a Christmas tree in town square, and someone asks a menorah to be put up, they put up the menorah-- they don't take it all down.

I've talked to atheists. Sure, you guys all think my kind are idiots for believing in an invisible man in the clouds who'll shower us with candies and our own pet helper monkeys if we follow rules supposedly given to us by a man who said a burning bush talked to him. Hell, I felt ridiculous just typing that. However, I've noticed quite a few of you leave us non-fanatics be, and I thank you for that. Because really, we're just people with vices. Some people need to do a line of blow to get by. Some people drink, smoke cigarettes, or pop pills. Some people watch a lot of TV or read fiction to escape. We Christians (and anyone of any other religion) need to believe in something after death to cope.



This post brought to you by two Budweisers and a Jager Bomb.

[Hotwire]

Originally Posted by Manic

A lack of religion doesn't make people amoral.

Just look at what the Church did to people who didn't agree with them, say around 600-1000 years ago.

[Hotwire]

In case they get seperated, a follow up thread...

http://forums.superherohype.com/show...7#post14367327

[Captain Planet!]

Bueller... Bueller... Bueller... Bueller...

[The Chairman]

Stein's got his facts meesed up.

Kids can still pray in school and read their Bibles. They're just not allowed to coerce other students.

[Ring Deacon]

Originally Posted by Manic

I'm a Christian, but come the F on, Stein. A lack of religion doesn't make people amoral. Kids aren't shooting up schools because they haven't found god. There are laws telling them not to do that crap. Telling them an almighty being beyond the stars doesn't want them to do it won't exactly deter them. To paraphrase Chris Rock, what happened to "crazy"?

Acually he didn't say kids are shooting each other beacuse they haven't found God. He said they are doing it because parents are listening to Dr Spock. In all of Dr. Spocks books he says it is wrong to spank your kids when they are bad, and it is wrong to punish them in any way because you will hurt their feelings. What Ben is saying is the fault of the parent that there are school shooting. If you don't teach kids from a young age the difference between right and wrong, and how they are to act, you get problems like school shooting, higher chance that your child will commit other crimes.

I'll say this most of us older (age wise) members here were more then likely spanked by our parents and we turned out good. I spank my son and he reponds to that better then any time out he has ever been in while in school. If my parents would have put me in a time out I'd have laughed at them.

[Danalys]

Originally Posted by Ring Deacon

Acually he didn't say kids are shooting each other beacuse they haven't found God. He said they are doing it because parents are listening to Dr Spock. In all of Dr. Spocks books he says it is wrong to spank your kids when they are bad, and it is wrong to punish them in any way because you will hurt their feelings. What Ben is saying is the fault of the parent that there are school shooting. If you don't teach kids from a young age the difference between right and wrong, and how they are to act, you get problems like school shooting, higher chance that your child will commit other crimes.

I'll say this most of us older (age wise) members here were more then likely spanked by our parents and we turned out good. I spank my son and he reponds to that better then any time out he has ever been in while in school. If my parents would have put me in a time out I'd have laughed at them.

ah i see turn the other cheek was obviously about spanking.

[Ring Deacon]

Originally Posted by Danalys

ah i see turn the other cheek was obviously about spanking.

You are missing the point. The Dr. Spock comment and the religous comments are two separate things. Dr. Spock says it is wrong to punish our kids. There are parents that believe this too, and looks what happens. I see kids everyday at my job screaming their heads off, breaking things and running way and all while the parent does nothing but say "do you want to be in a time out?" And that is if they even do that. The majority of the time they do nothing but say to other people " I don't know what to do with him. Why can't he just be good while we are out?" I can tell them why. Because you didn't just smack your kids ass. If I did half the stuff kids get away with today, I would have been smacked right in front of the whole store. Parents today are too soft on their kids. I too can be too soft on my own son at times. And when I am too easy on him he takes advantage of it. But if I smack him on the butt he listens up and says he is sorry right away.

I by no means am saying we need to beat kids for everything they do. But if nothing else work then you have to do something. And a quick smack on the butt never hurt anyone.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by Ring Deacon

You are missing the point. The Dr. Spock comment and the religous comments are two separate things. Dr. Spock says it is wrong to punish our kids. There are parents that believe this too, and looks what happens. I see kids everyday at my job screaming their heads off, breaking things and running way and all while the parent does nothing but say "do you want to be in a time out?" And that is if they even do that. The majority of the time they do nothing but say to other people " I don't know what to do with him. Why can't he just be good while we are out?" I can tell them why. Because you didn't just smack your kids ass. If I did half the stuff kids get away with today, I would have been smacked right in front of the whole store. Parents today are too soft on their kids. I too can be too soft on my own son at times. And when I am too easy on him he takes advantage of it. But if I smack him on the butt he listens up and says he is sorry right away.

I by no means am saying we need to beat kids for everything they do. But if nothing else work then you have to do something. And a quick smack on the butt never hurt anyone.

Dr. Spock doesn't say it's wrong to punish your kids. He suggests that striking them isn't the best form of punishment. And if you bothered to try discipline (not the same as punishment) at a young age as well as recognizing problematic behaviors before they become ingrained, then you would know what to do with them. In fact, you might find you won't have to do much at all. An ounce of prevention and all that...

It isn't that parents are too soft. It's that they're lazy and apathetic about behavioral problems and most don't readily acknowledge that their kids have them at a young age until they develop into larger problems as they grow. It's more about using your head instead of our hand.

[Danalys]

Originally Posted by Ring Deacon

You are missing the point. The Dr. Spock comment and the religous comments are two separate things.

i don't miss points i just sometimes ignore them and make a joke instead. but i could have instead seriously talked about the lack of tack of bringing up the son's suicide, and it's irrelevence to the issue overall. or that perhaps that if we assume doctor spocks theories true that things could play out in such a way that the none spanked could become targets of malajusted spankies.