I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.

Kurt Wagner · 07-17-2011, 07:36 PM

Three years later, I STILL believe in Harvey Dent...

But I'm a little curious on what people on the whole "Harvey Dent dies but Two-Face lives" theories. I personally think he's alive. The death in the film is only symbolic and not a physical death.

In the words of Harvey Dent/Two-Face himself, "You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." It's very clear that's EXACTLY what happened... The person in the body, essentially, did not die. He became a villain. Harvey Dent lived long enough to see himself become Two-Face. At the death at the end, if you notice, Harvey's face was facing up and the burnt side was on the ground. His arms were out to the side and his legs straight in a symbolic Jesus/martyr fashion. The death that we witnessed wasn't the death of the person, but the symbolic martyr death of Harvey - "The White Knight" of Gotham City.

In addition, at the memorial service for Harvey, there was no casket to be seen. Thus, no body to prove the death of Harvey/Two-Face. As the movie was coming to a close, he was no longer that "White Knight," but a villain fueled by revenge--Two-Face, the disfigured, mourning killer. The death that we saw was the symbolic death of Harvey, and the birth of Two-Face.

Plus, Batman was the only one that could have killed him, and remember Batman's only rule?

Harvey Dent is dead.
Two-Face lives on.

People who support the idea that Harvey/Two-Face is dead do so mainly on the idea that 1. He's laying motionless on the ground and 2. It's written in the shooting script "Dent lies at the bottom of the hole, his neck broken. DEAD." BUT... People fail to realize that 1. The script is only a blueprint for a film, not a bible. Just because it's written, doesn't mean it will be scene. The film is intentionally ambiguous about Harvey's/Two-Face's death both because the duality of his death makes sense for the character and the story, and also leaves the possibility for seeing the character in future films. In addition, it's quite possible that the filmmakers left it ambiguous since Heath Ledger's death during filming made The Joker's return less of a possibility. 2. The very next line in the script says, "The coin stops spinning, GOOD SIDE UP." This suggests that Harvey/Two-Face is alive because the coin says so. It's ambiguous in the script also.

Let's not also forget that Two-Face says so himself in a hospital scene...
Detective Wuertz: Dent. Jesus. I thought you was dead.
Two-Face: Half

Mister Meddle · 07-17-2011, 08:54 PM

No offense but I think you're over speculating. Not trying to ruin the fun but if Christopher Nolan said he's dead then he's dead. He's the only person that can tell us whether or not the characters in his story are still alive. There's nothing more to it.

Bathead · 07-17-2011, 09:02 PM

I voted for the second as i believe it is possible, but I really don't know. At ths point it doesn't look like he's gonna be in TDKR.

Kurt Wagner · 07-17-2011, 11:44 PM

When did Nolan himself ever say that Harvey Dent/Two-Face is dead? Only Aaron Eckhart said that Nolan said that... and for all we know, that could be misinformation. Nolan is super secretive about his films... So anything is possible.

Kurt Wagner · 07-21-2011, 07:26 PM

Lets also not forget that Batman knew the fall that Marconi took when Batman dropped him would not kill him. He even says so. When Batman takes Harvey down, he's counting on the same thing... not having the fall kill Harvey. It's no accident that during the fall, Nolan chooses to focus the shot on the coin that Harvey flipped just before Batman took him down... The coin appearing on it's good side, suggesting that he lives... The good part of Harvey... the White Knight... Lives.

IndyJokerJones · 07-22-2011, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt Wagner

Lets also not forget that Batman knew the fall that Marconi took when Batman dropped him would not kill him.

Except Maroni landed on his feet, breaking his leg(s). Harvey landed in a way that would break his back and shatter his skull. He's dead, give it up.

Blue Sugar · 07-22-2011, 09:42 AM

In the eyes of the public Dent died a hero. It was Batman who saw himself become the villain. Love that twist.

Kurt Wagner · 07-23-2011, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Sugar

In the eyes of the public Dent died a hero. It was Batman who saw himself become the villain. Love that twist.

That's not the twist... You obviously don't know Nolan films. Ever see the Prestige?

Every great magic trick consists of three parts or acts. The first part is called "The Pledge". The magician shows you something ordinary: a deck of cards, a bird or a man. He shows you this object. Perhaps he asks you to inspect it to see if it is indeed real, unaltered, normal. But of course... it probably isn't. The second act is called "The Turn". The magician takes the ordinary something and makes it do something extraordinary. Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it, because of course you're not really looking. You don't really want to know. You want to be fooled. But you wouldn't clap yet. Because making something disappear isn't enough; you have to bring it back. That's why every magic trick has a third act, the hardest part, the part we call "The Prestige"."

Snare · 09-13-2011, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt Wagner

Lets also not forget that Batman knew the fall that Marconi took when Batman dropped him would not kill him. He even says so. When Batman takes Harvey down, he's counting on the same thing... not having the fall kill Harvey. It's no accident that during the fall, Nolan chooses to focus the shot on the coin that Harvey flipped just before Batman took him down... The coin appearing on it's good side, suggesting that he lives... The good part of Harvey... the White Knight... Lives.

If you look closely enough at the coin you can see Venom's reflection in it.

Caekzor · 07-23-2011, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt Wagner

2. The very next line in the script says, "The coin stops spinning, GOOD SIDE UP." This suggests that Harvey/Two-Face is alive because the coin says so. It's ambiguous in the script also.

The coin was flipped for Gordon's son.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Sugar

In the eyes of the public Dent died a hero. It was Batman who saw himself become the villain.

Exactly.

Also, do you really think that they (Gordon AND the police) stuffed Harvey Dent in a room in the basement of Arkham Asylum and somehow kept that quiet? Which means that a lot more people would need to be in on 'the secret'.

Or maybe Gordon dragged Dent off and hid him until he could come back later (Harvey stayed unconscious for a long time) and take him home... maybe Harvey is locked in Gordon's basement!

flyinghamster · 08-15-2011, 02:12 AM

for everybody insisting that the fall killed the charecter , why wasn't he dead when he was riding the car with Marconi and driver, the crash that killed the other two in the car why didn't it kill harvey then and there.

HisMagicTrick · 08-15-2011, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyinghamster

for everybody insisting that the fall killed the charecter , why wasn't he dead when he was riding the car with Marconi and driver, the crash that killed the other two in the car why didn't it kill harvey then and there.

Why is everyone so sure that the crash killed Maroni? Has anyone who works on these movies actually said so?

Liam_H · 08-15-2011, 03:49 AM

@Kurt Wagner
I don't know why you would bring the premise of the Prestige into the Batman movies, its not like Nolan only makes movies that have a twist at the end.

*Whiplash* · 08-15-2011, 04:36 AM

Considering they had the service for Harvey and I'm pretty sure Gordon would have called for paramedics at the end. It's not like he would have just left the body lying there!

He's dead.

Cobblepot · 08-15-2011, 12:07 PM

Harvey is a tough guy, he survided after being severely burned. I'm sure he survived the fall.

But Harvey's dead, there's only Two-Face...

The Joker · 08-20-2011, 07:00 PM

As much as I'd love more of Eckhart's Two Face, I think he's dead.

Blitzkrieg Bop · 08-20-2011, 08:11 PM

Nolan and Eckhart have already said he's dead. There is no discussion.

Kurt Wagner · 08-20-2011, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg Bop

Nolan and Eckhart have already said he's dead. There is no discussion.

Like i asked before... When did Nolan ever say this?

And when Eckhart answered it, he was ambiguous...
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7359200n

Kurt Wagner · 09-13-2011, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg Bop

Nolan and Eckhart have already said he's dead. There is no discussion.

Okaaaaay, so I ask again... When did Nolan say this???

I'm Not a Hero · 09-13-2011, 06:14 PM

I strongly believe he is dead.

TheBat812 · 09-13-2011, 11:36 PM

Jonathan Nolan semi-confirmed it. http://incontention.com/2008/07/21/j...e-unthinkable/

But anyways, he's dead imo, and no reason to bring him back. We see him dead for a reason. When would Harvey's body in Two-face form have time to run away, and why would they never mention that during the tribute scene?

Kurt Wagner · 09-26-2011, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBat812

Jonathan Nolan semi-confirmed it. http://incontention.com/2008/07/21/j...e-unthinkable/

But anyways, he's dead imo, and no reason to bring him back. We see him dead for a reason. When would Harvey's body in Two-face form have time to run away, and why would they never mention that during the tribute scene?

The reason to bring him back is because he is one of the most interesting villians in the Batman universe... second to only the Joker. There is a reason why Dent's death is ambiguous. And also why they never fully confirmed it... all answers on the question of Dent's death have been semi-confirmed as you put it. Why wouldn't they mention it in the tribute scene? Because of the element of surprise.

El Payaso · 10-29-2011, 02:11 PM

Hahahaha. It was discussed to death back in the day but no, I don't remember any thread specifically opened for this issue.

It goes really simple: Dent is dead and so is everything Dent: his demons, problems, Two Face (who was never in the movie a separate entity as some pretend to make it look), etc. He died.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt Wagner

The reason to bring him back is because he is one of the most interesting villians in the Batman universe... second to only the Joker.

Then they should bring back the Joker, shouldn't they?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt Wagner

There is a reason why Dent's death is ambiguous.

Dent's was most likely the least ambiguous death ever in a superhero movie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt Wagner

And also why they never fully confirmed it... all answers on the question of Dent's death have been semi-confirmed as you put it.

It's kinda pointless to confirm something that is so very clear. You confirm things that leave room for doubts. Here, Dent died, his head was manipulated as you manipulate a dead corpse and you could see his eulogy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt Wagner

Why wouldn't they mention it in the tribute scene? Because of the element of surprise.

What tribute scene would this be?

Kurt Wagner · 10-31-2011, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Payaso

Then they should bring back the Joker, shouldn't they?

Absolutely! The Joker didn't die in the movie, right?

El Payaso · 10-31-2011, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt Wagner

Absolutely! The Joker didn't die in the movie, right?

No, he did not. Right.

View Poll Results: Two Face. Harvey Two-Face... Dead or Alive?
Harvey Two Face is DEAD as a doornail	37	56.06%
Harvey's dead, but Two-Face LIVES	22	33.33%
UNDECIDED... and leaving it to chance/ going to flip a coin.	7	10.61%
Voters: 66. You may not vote on this poll

07-17-2011, 07:36 PM	#1
Kurt Wagner Side-Kick Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,037	I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later. Three years later, I STILL believe in Harvey Dent... But I'm a little curious on what people on the whole "Harvey Dent dies but Two-Face lives" theories. I personally think he's alive. The death in the film is only symbolic and not a physical death. In the words of Harvey Dent/Two-Face himself, "You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." It's very clear that's EXACTLY what happened... The person in the body, essentially, did not die. He became a villain. Harvey Dent lived long enough to see himself become Two-Face. At the death at the end, if you notice, Harvey's face was facing up and the burnt side was on the ground. His arms were out to the side and his legs straight in a symbolic Jesus/martyr fashion. The death that we witnessed wasn't the death of the person, but the symbolic martyr death of Harvey - "The White Knight" of Gotham City. In addition, at the memorial service for Harvey, there was no casket to be seen. Thus, no body to prove the death of Harvey/Two-Face. As the movie was coming to a close, he was no longer that "White Knight," but a villain fueled by revenge--Two-Face, the disfigured, mourning killer. The death that we saw was the symbolic death of Harvey, and the birth of Two-Face. Plus, Batman was the only one that could have killed him, and remember Batman's only rule? Harvey Dent is dead. Two-Face lives on. People who support the idea that Harvey/Two-Face is dead do so mainly on the idea that 1. He's laying motionless on the ground and 2. It's written in the shooting script "Dent lies at the bottom of the hole, his neck broken. DEAD." BUT... People fail to realize that 1. The script is only a blueprint for a film, not a bible. Just because it's written, doesn't mean it will be scene. The film is intentionally ambiguous about Harvey's/Two-Face's death both because the duality of his death makes sense for the character and the story, and also leaves the possibility for seeing the character in future films. In addition, it's quite possible that the filmmakers left it ambiguous since Heath Ledger's death during filming made The Joker's return less of a possibility. 2. The very next line in the script says, "The coin stops spinning, GOOD SIDE UP." This suggests that Harvey/Two-Face is alive because the coin says so. It's ambiguous in the script also. Let's not also forget that Two-Face says so himself in a hospital scene... Detective Wuertz: Dent. Jesus. I thought you was dead. Two-Face: Half

07-17-2011, 08:54 PM	#2
Mister Meddle The Barber of Seville Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 2,225	Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later. No offense but I think you're over speculating. Not trying to ruin the fun but if Christopher Nolan said he's dead then he's dead. He's the only person that can tell us whether or not the characters in his story are still alive. There's nothing more to it. __________________ "I'm not in this business to protect the rules, I serve justice"

07-17-2011, 09:02 PM	#3
Bathead The Oldest Geek Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sumwear in Pencilvainya Posts: 3,126	Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later. I voted for the second as i believe it is possible, but I really don't know. At ths point it doesn't look like he's gonna be in TDKR. __________________ Little fly upon the wall, Ain't you got no friends at all? Wanna see God? splat

07-17-2011, 11:44 PM	#4
Kurt Wagner Side-Kick Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,037	Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later. When did Nolan himself ever say that Harvey Dent/Two-Face is dead? Only Aaron Eckhart said that Nolan said that... and for all we know, that could be misinformation. Nolan is super secretive about his films... So anything is possible. Last edited by Kurt Wagner; 07-17-2011 at 11:50 PM.

07-21-2011, 07:26 PM	#5
Kurt Wagner Side-Kick Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,037	Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later. Lets also not forget that Batman knew the fall that Marconi took when Batman dropped him would not kill him. He even says so. When Batman takes Harvey down, he's counting on the same thing... not having the fall kill Harvey. It's no accident that during the fall, Nolan chooses to focus the shot on the coin that Harvey flipped just before Batman took him down... The coin appearing on it's good side, suggesting that he lives... The good part of Harvey... the White Knight... Lives.

07-22-2011, 09:42 AM	#7
Blue Sugar Banned User Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Land of the ice and snow Posts: 4,841	Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later. In the eyes of the public Dent died a hero. It was Batman who saw himself become the villain. Love that twist.

08-15-2011, 02:12 AM	#11
flyinghamster New User - Level 0 Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1	Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later. for everybody insisting that the fall killed the charecter , why wasn't he dead when he was riding the car with Marconi and driver, the crash that killed the other two in the car why didn't it kill harvey then and there.

08-15-2011, 03:49 AM	#13
Liam_H Side-Kick Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 6,048	Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later. @Kurt Wagner I don't know why you would bring the premise of the Prestige into the Batman movies, its not like Nolan only makes movies that have a twist at the end.

08-15-2011, 04:36 AM	#14
Whiplash ? Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,277	Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later. Considering they had the service for Harvey and I'm pretty sure Gordon would have called for paramedics at the end. It's not like he would have just left the body lying there! He's dead.

08-15-2011, 12:07 PM	#15
Cobblepot Giant-Size Man-Thing Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Rotterdam Posts: 9,860	Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later. Harvey is a tough guy, he survided after being severely burned. I'm sure he survived the fall. But Harvey's dead, there's only Two-Face... __________________ Thanks Heath, Alan Grant & Norm Breyfogle!! You don't get it boy, this isn't a mudhole. It's an operating table. And I'm the surgeon.

08-20-2011, 07:00 PM	#16
The Joker Clown Prince of Crime Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Jollity Farm Posts: 33,681	Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later. As much as I'd love more of Eckhart's Two Face, I think he's dead. __________________ "Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker

08-20-2011, 08:11 PM	#17
Blitzkrieg Bop Butcher of New Liberty Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Under there Posts: 5,567	Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later. Nolan and Eckhart have already said he's dead. There is no discussion. __________________ It was you, Charlie. You was my brother. You should have looked out for me a little bit.You should have taken care of me just a little bit. You don't understand. I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum, which is what I am. Let's face it. It was you, Charlie. It was you, Charlie.

09-13-2011, 06:14 PM	#20
I'm Not a Hero Banned User Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 243	Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later. I strongly believe he is dead.

09-13-2011, 11:36 PM	#21
TheBat812 Side-Kick Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 5,105	Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later. Jonathan Nolan semi-confirmed it. http://incontention.com/2008/07/21/j...e-unthinkable/ But anyways, he's dead imo, and no reason to bring him back. We see him dead for a reason. When would Harvey's body in Two-face form have time to run away, and why would they never mention that during the tribute scene? __________________ "No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness." - Aristotle

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