question about superman, Clark Kent and Lois Lane

[ironmaidenrules]

What's better?
Clark tells Lois he's superman or superman tells Lois that he's Clark Kent.

I dunno, the question just popped into my head.

[The Question]

What's the difference, exactly?

I mean, yes, they're different scenarios, but I don't think anyone can answer which is better until you explain what you see as a distinction between the two of them.

[ironmaidenrules]

Well one brings superman down to her level

The other raises Clark.

Then you gotta think who the main identity is

[Kurosawa]

Originally Posted by ironmaidenrules

Well one brings superman down to her level

The other raises Clark.

Then you gotta think who the main identity is

Superman is the real person, Clark Kent is the disguise.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by Kurosawa

Superman is the real person, Clark Kent is the disguise.

'nuff said

[Czar Colossus]

Originally Posted by ironmaidenrules

Then you gotta think who the main identity is

That's A debate that could go on forever. There are legitimate arguments supporting either side, but as Siegel & Shuster originally conceived it Clark was the disguise.

[Thundercrack85]

Yeah, but that's changed entirely in recent times. Mostly due to the fact that Clark's parents are still alive. Though that claim has always bothered me, as he was raised Clark Kent, not Superman.

[Czar Colossus]

True

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

Yeah, but that's changed entirely in recent times. Mostly due to the fact that Clark's parents are still alive. Though that claim has always bothered me, as he was raised Clark Kent, not Superman.

...also true.

[WompuM]

Here's the deal.
He's really Clark Kent. He reveals he's Superman by opening his shirt. It's a much more iconic image than Superman putting on a pair of glasses. Superman II did a decent job with it, but not as well as All-Star Superman.

[Thundercrack85]

Well, the real question is, how do you make the revelation without Lois looking like a total moron?

[ThDWgeek]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

Well, the real question is, how do you make the revelation without Lois looking like a total moron?

All-star had it done pretty well, in that Lois still didn't accept it straight away, but I guess that could be seen as her just being stubborn. Another way could be for the artist to show a change in stature over a number of successive panels as he reveals the Superman logo.

[Hush]

We do have a stupid questions thread right?

[WompuM]

Originally Posted by Kurosawa

Superman is the real person, Clark Kent is the disguise.

Bull.****. I will argue with someone over that notion with Bruce/Batman, but it is just blatantly not true with Clark. If he was actually Superman, he would never be Clark Kent because he would have no need for such a persona. He is through and through a Kansas farmboy out to help people. He wears the costume because of its advantages, but if he had it his way, he would fly around in his normal clothes helping people.

Originally Posted by Cain

'nuff said

Wrong wrong wrong.

Originally Posted by Hush

We do have a stupid questions thread right?

Touche.

[Harlekin]

I thought it was pretty much agreed by now that Supes is basically a schizo in this department: there's Superman, there's the Clark Kent that works at the Daily Planet and stumbles around a lot and then there's the Clark Kent that his family and friends see. The latter is the real deal.

Also, definitely Clark Kent reveals he's Superman.

[hopefuldreamer]

I don't think it matters which. Neither Superman nor the Clark Kent that Lois knows are the 'real' person.

It's only when you put the two together that you see who he really is.

[WompuM]

I'll expand. Certainly, there are elements of the Kent persona that are a fabrication (e.g., needing glasses, being clumbsy), but unlike the fakeness of Bruce Wayne (e.g., drunken playboy antics), at the end of the day, Superman looks forward to coming home and being himself as Clark Kent, whereas if Batman had his way, he would have no need for the drunken persona and spend all his time in his cave. That said, I beleive both of their true personas are a third. For Clark, it's being at home with Lois and for Bruce it's being himself in the cave without a mask with Alfred or whoever. But there is a fine line difference between the two and it comes down to Superman wishing he could be Clark all the time. He tried it when he first started saving the space plane in street clothes and it showed him that he needed some sort of disguise.

Anyways, my two cents. Have at 'em.

[Thundercrack85]

That's a fair point. However, Robin and Alfred don't call Bruce Batman when they're at home. They both have three personas, but Clark generally doesn't have to put up as much of an act. He just downplays some qualities when in public. Bruce Wayne is a completely different person in public and private.

[Thundercrack85]

That's a fair point. However, Robin and Alfred don't call Bruce Batman when they're at home. They both have three personas, but Clark generally doesn't have to put up as much of an act. He just downplays some qualities when in public. Bruce Wayne is a completely different person in public and private.

[Kurosawa]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

Yeah, but that's changed entirely in recent times. Mostly due to the fact that Clark's parents are still alive. Though that claim has always bothered me, as he was raised Clark Kent, not Superman.

Thankfully now his parents are dead, so no saccharine scenes of him running home to mommy for pie and advice.

Originally Posted by WompuM

Bull.****. I will argue with someone over that notion with Bruce/Batman, but it is just blatantly not true with Clark. If he was actually Superman, he would never be Clark Kent because he would have no need for such a persona. He is through and through a Kansas farmboy out to help people. He wears the costume because of its advantages, but if he had it his way, he would fly around in his normal clothes helping people.



Wrong wrong wrong.



Touche.

I am speaking in terms of Superman in his most iconic version as created by Siegel and Shuster, not John Byrne's character. And that Superman-far and away the most successful version-was the real person and Clark Kent was a disguise. I think Jerry Siegel knew how Superman was supposed to be as he created him.

Originally Posted by WompuM

I'll expand. Certainly, there are elements of the Kent persona that are a fabrication (e.g., needing glasses, being clumbsy), but unlike the fakeness of Bruce Wayne (e.g., drunken playboy antics), at the end of the day, Superman looks forward to coming home and being himself as Clark Kent, whereas if Batman had his way, he would have no need for the drunken persona and spend all his time in his cave. That said, I beleive both of their true personas are a third. For Clark, it's being at home with Lois and for Bruce it's being himself in the cave without a mask with Alfred or whoever. But there is a fine line difference between the two and it comes down to Superman wishing he could be Clark all the time. He tried it when he first started saving the space plane in street clothes and it showed him that he needed some sort of disguise.

Anyways, my two cents. Have at 'em.

Superman does not wish he could be Clark all the time, but being Clark helps him cope with the responsibility of being Superman.

Maggin explains it best:

http://www.quora.com/Superman/Does-C...ome-Clark-Kent

The only "Clark Kent" that was ever a real person was the private Clark that was raised by Jonathan and Martha Kent, and when they died, that Clark died too, leaving just Superman/boy and the nebbish Clark Kent. They were the only people who ever understood the true him. His friends that only know his as Clark just know the facade; his fellow heroes who know him as Superman don't understand him completely because he is on a physical and mental level even beyond them, and other Kryptonians like Kara and the citizens of Kandor don't completely understand him because they were raised as pure Kryptonians while Superman had an earthly upbringing. Superman does not think like an Earthman. He thinks like a Superman. Not a Kryptonian-that's how Kara thinks-but like a superman.

[Czar Colossus]

Great points all around. I love this topic when people put some real thought into it, because there is some validity in all of these views. It shows just how important Superman is in our culture. It is why I feel that he is the undisputed greatest comic book character of all.
As for his current status; I really don't have so much a problem with creative minds reinterpreting the details of Superman's mythos, it's just that I absolutely hate the new look. I know my displeasure with this New 52 stuff is quite evident, but if the redesign weren't so horrible, I'd probably find it a bit more palatable. Sorry if that seems juvenile, but that's a real sore spot for me.

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by Kurosawa

Thankfully now his parents are dead, so no saccharine scenes of him running home to mommy for pie and advice.



I am speaking in terms of Superman in his most iconic version as created by Siegel and Shuster, not John Byrne's character. And that Superman-far and away the most successful version-was the real person and Clark Kent was a disguise. I think Jerry Siegel knew how Superman was supposed to be as he created him.



Superman does not wish he could be Clark all the time, but being Clark helps him cope with the responsibility of being Superman.

Maggin explains it best:

http://www.quora.com/Superman/Does-C...ome-Clark-Kent

The only "Clark Kent" that was ever a real person was the private Clark that was raised by Jonathan and Martha Kent, and when they died, that Clark died too, leaving just Superman/boy and the nebbish Clark Kent. They were the only people who ever understood the true him. His friends that only know his as Clark just know the facade; his fellow heroes who know him as Superman don't understand him completely because he is on a physical and mental level even beyond them, and other Kryptonians like Kara and the citizens of Kandor don't completely understand him because they were raised as pure Kryptonians while Superman had an earthly upbringing. Superman does not think like an Earthman. He thinks like a Superman. Not a Kryptonian-that's how Kara thinks-but like a superman.

Poppycock.

[hopefuldreamer]

Originally Posted by Kurosawa

Superman does not wish he could be Clark all the time, but being Clark helps him cope with the responsibility of being Superman.

Maggin explains it best:

http://www.quora.com/Superman/Does-C...ome-Clark-Kent

The only "Clark Kent" that was ever a real person was the private Clark that was raised by Jonathan and Martha Kent, and when they died, that Clark died too, leaving just Superman/boy and the nebbish Clark Kent. They were the only people who ever understood the true him. His friends that only know his as Clark just know the facade; his fellow heroes who know him as Superman don't understand him completely because he is on a physical and mental level even beyond them, and other Kryptonians like Kara and the citizens of Kandor don't completely understand him because they were raised as pure Kryptonians while Superman had an earthly upbringing. Superman does not think like an Earthman. He thinks like a Superman. Not a Kryptonian-that's how Kara thinks-but like a superman.

See I don't think that's a good explanation at all.

Maggin is clearly acknowledging that he isn't JUST kryptonian in nature. That his earthly up bringing has an effect on the way he thinks, that makes him much more complicated than just one way of thinking or the other.

He's a child of both worlds.

And yet he says the minute the Kents die, Clark Kent stops existing...

That makes no sense IMO.

His upbringing, his childhood, his memories of his parents - all the things about his life up to that point, the things that helped build his PERSONALITY don't just dissapear because he doesn't have anyone to be himself around anymore. They are still inside him. His personality doesn't just die because his parents do.

His true personality shows sometimes when he's in Superman costume. It shows sometimes when he's at work as Clark talking with his colleagues. It is not confined to just one persona (unless you go Donner's all out ridiculous Clark, but even then you could argue he sometimes let's a bit of himself show).

And THAT'S the 'real' person. Not one name/outfit over the other.

Whether you say farm Clark, Smallville Clark or just Clark Kent, it is simply a name that we are using for that earthly half that Maggin is both dismissing and then acknowledging in the same arguement.

[WompuM]

Hmm... at the same time though, Bruce is wearing just as much as a mask (figuratively) when he's Batman as when he's playboy-Bruce, what with the growling and the yelling. When Clark is Superman, he really is being himself. Possibly hamming up on his Boy Scoutness, but certainly more himself than Batman is to Bruce. I think with, say the Donner films, they really do make it seem as though fumbling bumbling Clark is the mask, but I wouldn't say that's true in the comics, where (until the ****ing reboot) Clark was a competent, well respected reporter.

Perhaps that's why the idea of Clark's Smallville years are so interesting. It's Clark's absolute true self. Now, I've also liked the idea, though I've never seen it anywhere, that the whole population of Smallville (all ~200 people) know full well Clark is Superman and he flies around freely in street clothes whenever he goes home.

[Thundercrack85]

I think you could do that, depending on Smallville's size. I.e. decent-sized town vs small farming community. Really, it wouldn't be surprising, since given the Superboy stories (or just having a heroic kid with superpowers walking around), most of Smallville would have been saved by Clark at one point or another.

Guess they could bridge the gap and him yell at people in boardroom meetings.

But overall, there isn't that big a difference between Clark Kent and Superman. At least, not as big as the difference between Bruce Wayne's public persona and Batman.

[Spike_x1]

Agreed.

The character isn't really fabricating anything in either the Clark or Superman persona. He's not faking his enthusiasm and talent for investigating and writing the truth for the public as a reporter, and he's not faking the manner in which he carries himself when flying around saving people. Sure, he can exaggerate some aspects of that, like the hands-on-the-hips-and-puff-out-chest stance as Supes, or occasionally spilling his coffee as Clark, but they're usually dependent on the given situation, like intimidating criminals. Of course, the Superman side of the equation is viewed with an entirely different mindset by readers and the public of the DCU, so he's seen as iconic and above everyday humans, which distances Superman greatly from Clark in the eyes of many. But just because some people view him that way doesn't mean that's how the character is.

Lois is/was in the unique position to bridge that gap between how Superman are Clark are seen, which, in a nutshell, is why the two of them grew close enough to eventual get married. How she accepts the reveal, I thought was done relatively well in All-Star, with her trying to wrap her head around combining her mental image of both Clark and Superman into one person.