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Old 07-18-2012, 03:02 PM   #1
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Default From Russia With Love

How big of a role should the Russians play in finding/programming Bucky or do you think they will change/update Winter Solidiers origin(Soviet Spy-assassin)?

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Old 07-18-2012, 04:03 PM   #2
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As big as possible. I really hope they don't say it was Hydra that did it.

I could understand how the first movie downplayed Nazis, but there isn't as much stigma about Soviet Russia as there is about Nazis.

Besides, the thing about Winter Soldier is that once he's in the present, he's just someone's indentured assassin.

If they want, he can be working for Lukin, Zemo or whoever. Just say that whoever "owns" him got him from ex-KGB when the Soviet Union ended.

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Old 07-19-2012, 01:16 AM   #3
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As big as possible. I really hope they don't say it was Hydra that did it.

I could understand how the first movie downplayed Nazis, but there isn't as much stigma about Soviet Russia as there is about Nazis.

Besides, the thing about Winter Soldier is that once he's in the present, he's just someone's indentured assassin.

If they want, he can be working for Lukin, Zemo or whoever. Just say that whoever "owns" him got him from ex-KGB when the Soviet Union ended.
I think it's inevitable that HYDRA were the ones who recovered Bucky's body from the train battle in CATFA. It's also highly likely that Skully recognized Bucky and saw fit to continue the mind control experiments he was doing on him when Cap had rescued him the first time. So Bucky was probably already Red Skull's puppet in the closing days of WWII.

But after Skull's death/disappearance, and after HYDRA was destroyed/driven underground by the Allies, the case can be made for Bucky falling fortuitously into the lap of the Soviet Union as they carve Germany up into East and West. This is probably where Aleksander Lukin becomes the ideal puppetmaster for Winter Soldier during the Cold War. It would also be nice to see Dr. Faustus make an appearance as Lukin's mind control expert, the one who keeps Bucky's memories buried.

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Old 07-19-2012, 02:27 AM   #4
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I think it's inevitable that HYDRA were the ones who recovered Bucky's body from the train battle in CATFA. It's also highly likely that Skully recognized Bucky and saw fit to continue the mind control experiments he was doing on him when Cap had rescued him the first time. So Bucky was probably already Red Skull's puppet in the closing days of WWII.

But after Skull's death/disappearance, and after HYDRA was destroyed/driven underground by the Allies, the case can be made for Bucky falling fortuitously into the lap of the Soviet Union as they carve Germany up into East and West. This is probably where Aleksander Lukin becomes the ideal puppetmaster for Winter Soldier during the Cold War. It would also be nice to see Dr. Faustus make an appearance as Lukin's mind control expert, the one who keeps Bucky's memories buried.
I could totally buy that. Definitely wouldn't make a lot of sense for a Russian submarine crew to find him, like in the comics.

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Old 07-19-2012, 06:17 AM   #5
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I think it's inevitable that HYDRA were the ones who recovered Bucky's body from the train battle in CATFA. It's also highly likely that Skully recognized Bucky and saw fit to continue the mind control experiments he was doing on him when Cap had rescued him the first time. So Bucky was probably already Red Skull's puppet in the closing days of WWII.

But after Skull's death/disappearance, and after HYDRA was destroyed/driven underground by the Allies, the case can be made for Bucky falling fortuitously into the lap of the Soviet Union as they carve Germany up into East and West. This is probably where Aleksander Lukin becomes the ideal puppetmaster for Winter Soldier during the Cold War. It would also be nice to see Dr. Faustus make an appearance as Lukin's mind control expert, the one who keeps Bucky's memories buried.
Inevitable, why? There isn't meant to be such a big gap between Bucky dying and Skull dying.

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I could totally buy that. Definitely wouldn't make a lot of sense for a Russian submarine crew to find him, like in the comics.
It isn't a choice between Hydra and being exactly like the comics.

It could have been a unit of the Soviet Army instead. The Soviets, just like the SSR, know Zola is going to pass through that certain location, so they send a team to intercept him. The Howling Commandos got there first, but the Soviets found Bucky and provided medical aid.

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Old 07-19-2012, 08:58 AM   #6
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Inevitable, why? There isn't meant to be such a big gap between Bucky dying and Skull dying.
There's no indication whatsoever how much time passes. This is the irritating "montage" sequence where the movie more or less fast-forwards through the rest of the war and Cap's exploits. The gap between the train scene and the bomber scene could be days, or years....nobody knows. [/QUOTE]





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It isn't a choice between Hydra and being exactly like the comics.

It could have been a unit of the Soviet Army instead. The Soviets, just like the SSR, know Zola is going to pass through that certain location, so they send a team to intercept him. The Howling Commandos got there first, but the Soviets found Bucky and provided medical aid.
Highly unlikely that the Soviets would be deep inside the German Alps. They'd be too busy holding the Nazis off on the Eastern Front, so a mountain-climbing expedition in Bavaria by Soviet commandos wouldn't likely be high on their agenda.

Bucky went down in HYDRA territory. Behind enemy lines. It's inevitable that any survivors (i.e., Bucky) of the train raid would have wound up captives of HYDRA.

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Old 07-19-2012, 09:26 AM   #7
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There's no indication whatsoever how much time passes. This is the irritating "montage" sequence where the movie more or less fast-forwards through the rest of the war and Cap's exploits. The gap between the train scene and the bomber scene could be days, or years....nobody knows.
The train montage comes BEFORE Bucky's death. Right after it, Schmidt mentions that their plan is on the eve of completion, and after Zola is brought back to London, there is sense of urgency. They're definitely racing against the clock at that point.

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Old 07-18-2012, 04:26 PM   #8
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It would be cool to see Howard Stark and his connection with Anton Vanko show up somewhere and play a role in this.

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Old 07-18-2012, 10:22 PM   #9
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It would be cool to see Howard Stark and his connection with Anton Vanko show up somewhere and play a role in this.
It depend on how they do it, but I'd rather not.

I they do something like saying that Winter Soldier's arm was a prototype stolen from Stark Industries, then please don't. We get it, Starks are hot ****. Move on.

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Old 07-19-2012, 08:57 AM   #10
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It depend on how they do it, but I'd rather not.

If they do something like saying that Winter Soldier's arm was a prototype stolen from Stark Industries, then please don't. We get it, Starks are hot ****. Move on.
I meant more about Vanko's involvement. I don't see it too out of the realm of possibility that he was a Hydra agent or working for the person responsible for the Winter Soldier. Maybe it's already after he was deported and they could show John Slattery again =P

I don't know. I guess it's important to keep the story focused on Cap, but I think it'd be cool to see ties both to CA:TFA as well as to other aspects of MCU history.

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Old 07-19-2012, 09:24 AM   #11
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I meant more about Vanko's involvement. I don't see it too out of the realm of possibility that he was a Hydra agent or working for the person responsible for the Winter Soldier. Maybe it's already after he was deported and they could show John Slattery again =P

I don't know. I guess it's important to keep the story focused on Cap, but I think it'd be cool to see ties both to CA:TFA as well as to other aspects of MCU history.
Well, I'd actually buy a younger Vanko working on the Winter Soldier. That would be pretty cool.

The problem with these ties is that they make the MCU look smaller. If they want to make references, they should be to things that are new rather than the same things we've seen before.

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Old 07-18-2012, 10:27 PM   #12
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I have a feeling they'll downplay the Russia stuff

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Old 07-19-2012, 03:16 AM   #13
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I just want it to link up with Natasha's history like in the comics. I really want to kick some "Clintasha" fan bottom.

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Old 07-19-2012, 10:48 AM   #14
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I don't think Vanko being anywhere near Winter Soldier makes sense. Besides, it would mean recasting as I don't think Mickey would come within 100 miles of Marvel ever again after his role got butchered. Natasha makes absolute sense, as she and Bucky would have likely moved in the same circles of government and espionage. But keep Vanko out of it.

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Old 07-19-2012, 11:54 AM   #15
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I don't think Vanko being anywhere near Winter Soldier makes sense. Besides, it would mean recasting as I don't think Mickey would come within 100 miles of Marvel ever again after his role got butchered. Natasha makes absolute sense, as she and Bucky would have likely moved in the same circles of government and espionage. But keep Vanko out of it.
The Vanko is question would be Anton, Ivan's father and Howard Stark's erstwhile business partner.

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Old 07-19-2012, 12:21 PM   #16
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Even then, I don't see it. Neither Vanko would plausibly have anything to do with Winter Soldier.

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Old 07-19-2012, 12:45 PM   #17
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Even then, I don't see it. Neither Vanko would plausibly have anything to do with Winter Soldier.
Why not Anton? He was surely smart enough, and a Russian.

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Old 07-19-2012, 01:19 PM   #18
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Why not Anton? He was surely smart enough, and a Russian.
They would have nothing to do with espionage, assassinations, etc becuase they were physicists. They were both disgraced, convicted criminals, anyway. They wouldn't be allowed anywhere near something that would be considered a classified project like Winter Soldier, which would carry a degree of privilege and prestige for the Soviets allowed to work on the project.

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Old 07-19-2012, 03:08 PM   #19
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I kind of see CA and the Howlin' Commandos not looking for Bucky after capturing Zola to be a bit curious. With how tight-knit the group was, you'd think they would go looking for his body and bring it back with them for a proper burial.

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Old 07-20-2012, 12:04 AM   #20
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I kind of see CA and the Howlin' Commandos not looking for Bucky after capturing Zola to be a bit curious. With how tight-knit the group was, you'd think they would go looking for his body and bring it back with them for a proper burial.
Damn near impossible.

Bucky dropped into an icy river at the bottom of a chasm. In order to retrieve his body, you'd have to rope down into a sheer canyon thousands of feet deep, then try to follow the course of a raging, icy river for god knows how many miles before haystack-needling Bucky's corpse somewhere downstream. And let's not forget that you're deep in the heart of HYDRA/Nazi country, too.

Hell, even Steve would've said "**** it, he's long gone."

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Old 07-20-2012, 01:56 PM   #21
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Which will make him feel all the guiltier when Cyber-Bucky shows up, albeit without real justification.

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Old 07-21-2012, 10:18 PM   #22
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Which will make him feel all the guiltier when Cyber-Bucky shows up, albeit without real justification.
But that's just it: there is NO guilt associated with MCU Steve.
COMIC BOOK Steve always felt guilt about Bucky, with damn good reason. I mean, who the royal **** takes a KID into a ****ing WWII BATTLE ZONE and lets him get strapped to a ****ING BOMB.....????

Thank god MCU Steve doesn't face that same Silver Age bubble-gum stupidity that Stan and Jack were certainly guilty of, on plenty of occasions.

In the MCU, Steve is not responsible for Bucky's death. He got killed (apparently) in the train attack, and that's tragic and all, and Steve's downed a few beers for fallen comrades and all that. But that's all he owes Bucky. When he finds out that Bucky survived and was kidnapped, tortured and mind-****ed by HYDRA and/or the Reds or whoever to become their own personal Jason Bourne, Steve will be rightly shocked, saddened, and simultaneously happy that his old friend is still alive with him in this Brave New World. But feeling guilty....? Nah.

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Old 08-11-2012, 12:42 PM   #23
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Default Re: From Russia With Love

I'd like to see the Soviets involved. After the USSR collapse like a lot of the Soviet era weapons, Winter Soldier becomes unaccounted for. Whoever uses Black Widow uses WS as well.

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Old 08-12-2012, 02:18 PM   #24
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The Russians should play a big role in this movie, its what Winter Soldier is all about, plus then we can get BW involved too.

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Old 08-12-2012, 03:03 PM   #25
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The Russians should play a big role in this movie, its what Winter Soldier is all about, plus then we can get BW involved too.
Maybe have WS still working for the FSB, the successor of the old KGB from the USSR.

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