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Old 09-23-2012, 04:49 PM   #1
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Default Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

Look, I think it's generally understood that Nolan can't write female characters. But out of the meager few that he wrote, which babe do you think had the best relationship/connection with Bruce Wayne? I would actually (from the acting) go with Talia just because of Bruce's reaction at her betrayal. I mean, he dropped his Batman voice...

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Old 09-23-2012, 05:49 PM   #2
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Selina, hands down.
She struggles with her selfish desires and criminal tendencies, but in the end proves herself to Bruce by returning when she could have left. Again and again she makes the choice in favor of him after struggling with it. (At least, after the betrayal to Bane.)
I feel their connection is by far the deepest and truest, as it had to be earned on both sides. Rachel left Bruce because she didn't understand his mission, and of course Talia hated him for letting her father die. But Selina left behind her criminal life to fight for him.

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Old 09-23-2012, 05:49 PM   #3
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Inb4adelugeofselinakyleposts

to be fair, thats what happens when selina is the only decently written love interest

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Old 09-23-2012, 06:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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Inb4adelugeofselinakyleposts

to be fair, thats what happens when selina is the only decently written love interest
Agreed. This thread's fate was sealed before it was made, the "competition" hardly has any supporters even from the radical marion leg humping crowd so it'll be another string of Selina praising and Talia bashing Maybe you'll get that odd newbie troll who takes the opposing position just for the sake of it. Fact of the matter is Miranda Tate hardly had any chemistry with Bruce... she could have but then no real care was taken in that character or her subplot.

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Old 09-23-2012, 09:38 PM   #5
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Agreed. This thread's fate was sealed before it was made, the "competition" hardly has any supporters even from the radical marion leg humping crowd so it'll be another string of Selina praising and Talia bashing Maybe you'll get that odd newbie troll who takes the opposing position just for the sake of it. Fact of the matter is Miranda Tate hardly had any chemistry with Bruce... she could have but then no real care was taken in that character or her subplot.
Pretty much sums it up.

Basically, This thread should just be merged with the anne thread, lmao

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Old 09-24-2012, 06:49 PM   #6
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Basically, This thread should just be merged with the anne thread, lmao
True.

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Old 09-24-2012, 12:22 PM   #7
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Agreed. This thread's fate was sealed before it was made, the "competition" hardly has any supporters even from the radical marion leg humping crowd so it'll be another string of Selina praising and Talia bashing Maybe you'll get that odd newbie troll who takes the opposing position just for the sake of it. Fact of the matter is Miranda Tate hardly had any chemistry with Bruce... she could have but then no real care was taken in that character or her subplot.
This.

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Old 09-23-2012, 08:52 PM   #8
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Inb4adelugeofselinakyleposts
Right?

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Old 09-23-2012, 07:25 PM   #9
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

Selina for the better match, Rachel for the emotional connection.

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Old 09-23-2012, 08:30 PM   #10
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One of the greatest surprises of TDKR was that Bruce was given at last a great romantic interest. And I'm not talking about Talia. Selina Kyle wins this hands down.

In Begins and TDK, Rachel Dawes filled a role of the romantic interest, but it was different. She represented hope for a better life, and Bruce idealized her to the point he didn't realized that, at the end, she didn't fully share his viewpoints and goals. That is not necessarily bad, because she had her own arc. She really loved Bruce, but as she said at the end of Begins, the man she loved didn't fully returned. So she was split inside. Then came Harvey Dent into her life and she saw something better for her, thinking that Bruce could never stop being Batman. In TDK that's her deal, and she makes a choice, a choice Bruce didn't know because Alfred didn't want to hurt him even more.

And then, in TDKR, eight years later we encounter and older Bruce who is frozen in time. Batman is no longer needed, and Bruce has nothing else to live for. Though it isn't an instant process. We learn that he tried to help people, with the donations of the Wayne Foundation to orphanages, and the energy project. And when that project seems to dangerous it is another defeat.

Then we bring to the game Selina Kyle and Miranda Tate/Talia al Ghul. We all know the evil intentions of Talia's plan, but we must also analyze the impact it has on Bruce. She is presented, by both Alfred and Lucius, as a "quite lovely" woman. These two man wants the best for Bruce. She represents the hope for a better life that Rachel was, but he is reluctant to accept it. It is more clearly displayed in the mansion scene, where Talia and Bruce enter by another door to the mansion, Talia finds the Rachel picture and asks who she is. Then as Talia approaches to kiss Bruce, there is an instant where Bruce pauses and reflects all of these, and then he kisses her. But all of these is a manipulative ruse to bring Bruce to his weakest point, she uses Rachel as an advantage, and among many other things, makes Bruce vulnerable.

And the star of the show is Selina Kyle. It is displayed in the first scene, when Selina steals Bruce fingerprints and his mother pearl necklace. He doesn't act annoyed or particularly mad. At the end, he is fascinated by this new woman who dared to go to these lenghts to steal at Wayne Manor. He is obviously attracted to her as well. As a good detective, he finds information about her, but also another thing. She is trying to begin a new life, a normal life. Something that Bruce deeply wanted too. And he sees good in her. It is a different thing from Rachel, because Selina is a broken person who has the potential for good. In a way, she is like Gotham City, a fractured place where there is still "good people". And Bruce/Batman arrival in Selina/Catwoman's life brings the good in her. They complement each other, and it shows in the witty banter's they have in the ballroom scene and when Bruce comes to visit her in the apartment scene. I love that in the end of the scene, Selina feels bad for Bruce predicament, and Bruce gallantly shrugs it off. They play each other well.

And while Bruce is fascinated by Selina, Selina is as well fascinated by Bruce. Though she shows appreciation for Batman, when she betrays him delivering him to Bane and learns that he is Bruce Wayne, there is pain in her eyes. She can't do nothing to help him, not yet at least. Bruce is also torn between these two great women. But as Talia's Miranda represent a part of his past that he has to overcome, Selina represents a unexpected new hope for a better life.

And the betrayal of Talia at the end of the film, hurts Bruce deeply. He was given a false hope, and it is truly a great scene. But he realizes that he has to move on. Selina arrives to save him, in more than one way. They have developed the beginning of a relationship, but it is Selina who save Bruce from his imposed destiny. She showed him that there is more to live. At the beginning of the film, Bruce is almost only waiting death, and Alfred is worried that he wants to die in his mission of Batman. When Batman flies over the ocean with the bomb, there is a nice moment when Batman reflects on all of this. Even though he can save himself, in my opinion, he may be thinking as well "This would be a good death…". It is great moment when we learn that he decided to save himself, he learned that he can confront and overcame all of the pain in his life, and that, despite his contrary belief, he can be happy.

So they both saved each other in many levels. It was great and one of the things I loved most about the film.

In short, Selina Kyle.

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Old 09-23-2012, 09:18 PM   #11
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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Originally Posted by BlueLightning View Post
One of the greatest surprises of TDKR was that Bruce was given at last a great romantic interest. And I'm not talking about Talia. Selina Kyle wins this hands down.

In Begins and TDK, Rachel Dawes filled a role of the romantic interest, but it was different. She represented hope for a better life, and Bruce idealized her to the point he didn't realized that, at the end, she didn't fully share his viewpoints and goals. That is not necessarily bad, because she had her own arc. She really loved Bruce, but as she said at the end of Begins, the man she loved didn't fully returned. So she was split inside. Then came Harvey Dent into her life and she saw something better for her, thinking that Bruce could never stop being Batman. In TDK that's her deal, and she makes a choice, a choice Bruce didn't know because Alfred didn't want to hurt him even more.

And then, in TDKR, eight years later we encounter and older Bruce who is frozen in time. Batman is no longer needed, and Bruce has nothing else to live for. Though it isn't an instant process. We learn that he tried to help people, with the donations of the Wayne Foundation to orphanages, and the energy project. And when that project seems to dangerous it is another defeat.

Then we bring to the game Selina Kyle and Miranda Tate/Talia al Ghul. We all know the evil intentions of Talia's plan, but we must also analyze the impact it has on Bruce. She is presented, by both Alfred and Lucius, as a "quite lovely" woman. These two man wants the best for Bruce. She represents the hope for a better life that Rachel was, but he is reluctant to accept it. It is more clearly displayed in the mansion scene, where Talia and Bruce enter by another door to the mansion, Talia finds the Rachel picture and asks who she is. Then as Talia approaches to kiss Bruce, there is an instant where Bruce pauses and reflects all of these, and then he kisses her. But all of these is a manipulative ruse to bring Bruce to his weakest point, she uses Rachel as an advantage, and among many other things, makes Bruce vulnerable.

And the star of the show is Selina Kyle. It is displayed in the first scene, when Selina steals Bruce fingerprints and his mother pearl necklace. He doesn't act annoyed or particularly mad. At the end, he is fascinated by this new woman who dared to go to these lenghts to steal at Wayne Manor. He is obviously attracted to her as well. As a good detective, he finds information about her, but also another thing. She is trying to begin a new life, a normal life. Something that Bruce deeply wanted too. And he sees good in her. It is a different thing from Rachel, because Selina is a broken person who has the potential for good. In a way, she is like Gotham City, a fractured place where there is still "good people". And Bruce/Batman arrival in Selina/Catwoman's life brings the good in her. They complement each other, and it shows in the witty banter's they have in the ballroom scene and when Bruce comes to visit her in the apartment scene. I love that in the end of the scene, Selina feels bad for Bruce predicament, and Bruce gallantly shrugs it off. They play each other well.

And while Bruce is fascinated by Selina, Selina is as well fascinated by Bruce. Though she shows appreciation for Batman, when she betrays him delivering him to Bane and learns that he is Bruce Wayne, there is pain in her eyes. She can't do nothing to help him, not yet at least. Bruce is also torn between these two great women. But as Talia's Miranda represent a part of his past that he has to overcome, Selina represents a unexpected new hope for a better life.

And the betrayal of Talia at the end of the film, hurts Bruce deeply. He was given a false hope, and it is truly a great scene. But he realizes that he has to move on. Selina arrives to save him, in more than one way. They have developed the beginning of a relationship, but it is Selina who save Bruce from his imposed destiny. She showed him that there is more to live. At the beginning of the film, Bruce is almost only waiting death, and Alfred is worried that he wants to die in his mission of Batman. When Batman flies over the ocean with the bomb, there is a nice moment when Batman reflects on all of this. Even though he can save himself, in my opinion, he may be thinking as well "This would be a good death…". It is great moment when we learn that he decided to save himself, he learned that he can confront and overcame all of the pain in his life, and that, despite his contrary belief, he can be happy.

So they both saved each other in many levels. It was great and one of the things I loved most about the film.

In short, Selina Kyle.
Great post. You highlighted why I don't believe that Tate/Talia was a wasted character, and how she carries the thematic threads of not only Ra's, but Rachel too. What's interesting is that in the end, she could be seen as Bane's "Rachel". I had never thought about Miranda representing Bruce's past and Selina representing his future until you put it like that, but it makes perfect sense.

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Old 09-23-2012, 09:39 PM   #12
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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One of the greatest surprises of TDKR was that Bruce was given at last a great romantic interest. And I'm not talking about Talia. Selina Kyle wins this hands down.

In Begins and TDK, Rachel Dawes filled a role of the romantic interest, but it was different. She represented hope for a better life, and Bruce idealized her to the point he didn't realized that, at the end, she didn't fully share his viewpoints and goals. That is not necessarily bad, because she had her own arc. She really loved Bruce, but as she said at the end of Begins, the man she loved didn't fully returned. So she was split inside. Then came Harvey Dent into her life and she saw something better for her, thinking that Bruce could never stop being Batman. In TDK that's her deal, and she makes a choice, a choice Bruce didn't know because Alfred didn't want to hurt him even more.

And then, in TDKR, eight years later we encounter and older Bruce who is frozen in time. Batman is no longer needed, and Bruce has nothing else to live for. Though it isn't an instant process. We learn that he tried to help people, with the donations of the Wayne Foundation to orphanages, and the energy project. And when that project seems to dangerous it is another defeat.

Then we bring to the game Selina Kyle and Miranda Tate/Talia al Ghul. We all know the evil intentions of Talia's plan, but we must also analyze the impact it has on Bruce. She is presented, by both Alfred and Lucius, as a "quite lovely" woman. These two man wants the best for Bruce. She represents the hope for a better life that Rachel was, but he is reluctant to accept it. It is more clearly displayed in the mansion scene, where Talia and Bruce enter by another door to the mansion, Talia finds the Rachel picture and asks who she is. Then as Talia approaches to kiss Bruce, there is an instant where Bruce pauses and reflects all of these, and then he kisses her. But all of these is a manipulative ruse to bring Bruce to his weakest point, she uses Rachel as an advantage, and among many other things, makes Bruce vulnerable.

And the star of the show is Selina Kyle. It is displayed in the first scene, when Selina steals Bruce fingerprints and his mother pearl necklace. He doesn't act annoyed or particularly mad. At the end, he is fascinated by this new woman who dared to go to these lenghts to steal at Wayne Manor. He is obviously attracted to her as well. As a good detective, he finds information about her, but also another thing. She is trying to begin a new life, a normal life. Something that Bruce deeply wanted too. And he sees good in her. It is a different thing from Rachel, because Selina is a broken person who has the potential for good. In a way, she is like Gotham City, a fractured place where there is still "good people". And Bruce/Batman arrival in Selina/Catwoman's life brings the good in her. They complement each other, and it shows in the witty banter's they have in the ballroom scene and when Bruce comes to visit her in the apartment scene. I love that in the end of the scene, Selina feels bad for Bruce predicament, and Bruce gallantly shrugs it off. They play each other well.

And while Bruce is fascinated by Selina, Selina is as well fascinated by Bruce. Though she shows appreciation for Batman, when she betrays him delivering him to Bane and learns that he is Bruce Wayne, there is pain in her eyes. She can't do nothing to help him, not yet at least. Bruce is also torn between these two great women. But as Talia's Miranda represent a part of his past that he has to overcome, Selina represents a unexpected new hope for a better life.

And the betrayal of Talia at the end of the film, hurts Bruce deeply. He was given a false hope, and it is truly a great scene. But he realizes that he has to move on. Selina arrives to save him, in more than one way. They have developed the beginning of a relationship, but it is Selina who save Bruce from his imposed destiny. She showed him that there is more to live. At the beginning of the film, Bruce is almost only waiting death, and Alfred is worried that he wants to die in his mission of Batman. When Batman flies over the ocean with the bomb, there is a nice moment when Batman reflects on all of this. Even though he can save himself, in my opinion, he may be thinking as well "This would be a good death…". It is great moment when we learn that he decided to save himself, he learned that he can confront and overcame all of the pain in his life, and that, despite his contrary belief, he can be happy.

So they both saved each other in many levels. It was great and one of the things I loved most about the film.

In short, Selina Kyle.
well said

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Old 09-23-2012, 08:52 PM   #13
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Neither woman developed a "deep" connection with him in my view. Selina did not have that many scenes with Batman nor Bruce in order to fully build a connection/relationship that concludes running away together when the dust settled from the battle in Gotham. I've seen the film 3 times and I just didn't feel it. Doesn't seem like Bruce feels it either by the way he reacts to her kiss. And Talia/Miranda? It's not even really worth mentioning because it was manipulation and complete lack of caring on her side.

When it comes to who Bruce Wayne shared the deepest connection with, when you look at all 3 films and all 3 women, it's Rachel, even if she didn't "understand his mission", which I don't think is entirely true. She couldn't handle it.

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Old 09-24-2012, 10:07 AM   #14
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Neither woman developed a "deep" connection with him in my view. Selina did not have that many scenes with Batman nor Bruce in order to fully build a connection/relationship that concludes running away together when the dust settled from the battle in Gotham. I've seen the film 3 times and I just didn't feel it. Doesn't seem like Bruce feels it either by the way he reacts to her kiss. And Talia/Miranda? It's not even really worth mentioning because it was manipulation and complete lack of caring on her side.

When it comes to who Bruce Wayne shared the deepest connection with, when you look at all 3 films and all 3 women, it's Rachel, even if she didn't "understand his mission", which I don't think is entirely true. She couldn't handle it.
Nolan doesn't spell everything it in the movie. The official novel does a great job of showing the connection between Bruce and Selina. He effects her in a way that no man ever has. And the last kiss,I don't know what you're talking about because he clearly enjoys both kisses. In the book it talks about how passionate the last kiss is and how he kisses her back and how he wishes the moment could go on longer and that they had more time together. Just the fact that he gives her his mother's pearls speaks volumes.

Their bond is the true one. Bruce and Rachel didn't have much of a bond as adults. She could never understand him, which is why she chose Harvey over him and didn't even bother to tell him that in person.

But of course, you've proven yourself to be very anti Bruce/Selina in the past, so your comment here doesn't surprise anyone. But all that being said, please don't make things up by acting like Bruce reacted poorly to Selina's kisses. That is simply not true.


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Old 09-24-2012, 06:52 PM   #15
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But of course, you've proven yourself to be very anti Bruce/Selina in the past, so your comment here doesn't surprise anyone.
I have? I'm pretty sure I've explained before that I'm not. It's not my preference, but I don't dislike them as a couple. That's quite an assumption just because my POV is that Bruce/Selina here, in TDKR, doesn't work. IMO. You can't seem to get that and you never let me alone with my opinion. You always have to argue.

For the record, I loved Bruce and Selina in Batman Returns. I thought they worked, and Bruce shined with her more 1000 x more than Vicki Vale.

But frankly, I'm really tired of you and your negative comments toward me and about me, so I think it's just time to put you on ignore. It will be easier that way. Maybe you should do the same, because you can't refrain from insulting me over a fictional couple and telling me I "make things up". It's as if you follow me around just to get after me for my differing opinion.

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Old 09-24-2012, 09:43 PM   #16
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It's as if you follow me around just to get after me for my differing opinion.
Don't worry, Kthevs pretty much does that to anybody who dosent think that Bruce/Selina is the greatest love story since Gone with the Wind.

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Old 09-25-2012, 07:37 AM   #17
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Don't worry, Kthevs pretty much does that to anybody who dosent think that Bruce/Selina is the greatest love story since Gone with the Wind.
False. I have no problem with saying that you hated Bruce/Selina. I have a problem with Zatanna implying that Bruce was disgusted with Selina's kisses. That's just a lie.

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Old 09-25-2012, 07:36 AM   #18
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I have? I'm pretty sure I've explained before that I'm not. It's not my preference, but I don't dislike them as a couple. That's quite an assumption just because my POV is that Bruce/Selina here, in TDKR, doesn't work. IMO. You can't seem to get that and you never let me alone with my opinion. You always have to argue.

For the record, I loved Bruce and Selina in Batman Returns. I thought they worked, and Bruce shined with her more 1000 x more than Vicki Vale.

But frankly, I'm really tired of you and your negative comments toward me and about me, so I think it's just time to put you on ignore. It will be easier that way. Maybe you should do the same, because you can't refrain from insulting me over a fictional couple and telling me I "make things up". It's as if you follow me around just to get after me for my differing opinion.
Opinion is sayig you didn't feel it. That's your opinion. Implying that Bruce was repulsed by Selina's kisses is you making things up. That's not opinion. That's not opinion, that's you twisting facts and telling untruths.

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Old 09-23-2012, 09:35 PM   #19
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Holly 'Jen' Robinson.
The sexual tension between her and Bruce in Selina's hallway

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Old 09-24-2012, 10:37 AM   #20
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Selina Kyle wins by default because Tate was the most boring under used female love interest I've ever seen in a Batman movie.

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Old 09-24-2012, 07:14 PM   #21
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In this movie? Both were pretty shallow and confusing...Talia's motive for sleeping with him, without the Damian subplot from the comic books, made little sense, unless as just one more little "screw you" in her mental torture plot. Selina didn't seem romantically connected until it was just sort of shoe-horned in at the end.

I guess Rachel by default, then. She had two movies, after all.

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Old 09-24-2012, 09:50 PM   #22
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In this movie? Both were pretty shallow and confusing...Talia's motive for sleeping with him, without the Damian subplot from the comic books, made little sense, unless as just one more little "screw you" in her mental torture plot. Selina didn't seem romantically connected until it was just sort of shoe-horned in at the end.

I guess Rachel by default, then. She had two movies, after all.
.........................................eh

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Old 09-25-2012, 12:38 AM   #23
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Its Kinda Rachel by default, but he clearly had more chemistry with Selina who was more interesting , and she was frankly more i and likeable then Rachel was , or at least Rachel was portrayed in TDK. Talia could have been good if she had been handled better and not given the standard revenge plot.

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Old 09-25-2012, 09:09 AM   #24
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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Originally Posted by Baramos View Post
In this movie? Both were pretty shallow and confusing...Talia's motive for sleeping with him, without the Damian subplot from the comic books, made little sense, unless as just one more little "screw you" in her mental torture plot. Selina didn't seem romantically connected until it was just sort of shoe-horned in at the end.

I guess Rachel by default, then. She had two movies, after all.
Rachel had a greater impact on Bruce's life than the other two did for sure. But she was a bore. But I think Talia was even more boring than Rachel.

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Old 09-25-2012, 05:05 AM   #25
kewlmatto
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

I think a few years after the events of TDKR, the answer would inevitably be Selina.

But based on what we did see in the Nolan Trilogy, the answer is definitely Rachel in my opinion.

Bruce sees good in Selina and feels a connection, but it is more based on hope than any previous knowledge or understanding.

With Rachel, they were childhood friends, they both grieved for the loss of the Waynes, they both desperately craved for justice in Gotham, which would mean a chance to begin their relationship in earnest.

Rachel had a past with Bruce - even though it was often kept at arm's length, it was much of his motivation in becoming Batman in the first place.

With Selina, we only see the very beginning of this kind of relationship. Bruce plays Rachel's part, inspiring Selina to be a better person - just like Rachel once did for Bruce. There's a fair amount of symmetry, but thematically Rachel is the character who had the deeper connection.

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