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Old 11-16-2012, 11:37 AM   #1
elizah72
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Shock Thor 2 Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion/speculation)

I hope it's okay to start this thread, this way the other news and spoilers thread can be more for oooohing and awwing at the spoilery pictures, and other brand new news and general discussion, and this thread can more explore some general plot ideas and speculation based on those spoilers and figure out how it all ties in as a whole. It seems like that type of talk might get lost with the floods of comments about pictures, etc... and it would be easier to keep track of everything in one thread to, again tie everything in together for the bigger picture, rather than all over the place.

Quote:
Official Synopsis Marvel’s Thor: The Dark World continues the big-screen adventures of Thor, the Mighty Avenger, as he battles to save Earth and all the Nine Realms from a shadowy enemy that predates the universe itself. In the aftermath of Marvel’s Thor and Marvel’s The Avengers, Thor fights to restore order across the cosmos…but an ancient race led by the vengeful Malekith returns to plunge the universe back into darkness. Faced with an enemy that even Odin and Asgard cannot withstand, Thor must embark on his most perilous and personal journey yet, one that will reunite him with Jane Foster and force him to sacrifice everything to save us all.
SPOILERS Be warned! Run away from this thread if you dont want to be spoiled for Thor 2!!! I'm going to put this in spoiler tags for now and people can let me know, if this thread stays, if that is necessary or not here. I dont think it is due to the thread title but I'll put it up for now.

Okay so for those joining in late, we were discussing in the Kurse thread starting about page 8 about if those in the pictures we are seeing this week are the Dark Elves then who the heck are the warriors fighting in the pictures that were taken in the Bourne woods a while back and where was that taking place. Also there has been lots of good discussion in the Alice Krige thread about her role so check that out too.

We also have some interesting discussion about "Moral Sacrifice" in the Thor thread starting at page 11 which I think is very much going to be a theme and tie in to what happens to Thor in Thor 2, and we can maybe discuss that more here as well. (again I dont want to just repeat everything, just trying to move the discussions together to try to get the bigger picture.)

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Suffice to say, my theory on the Bourne woods fighting scenes is that there is are two kingdoms fighting (per what the studio put out about it) and that it is probably Nornheim (part of Asgard but Karnilla's kingdom), being attacked by either Vanaheim or an army from Niflheim (army of dishonored dead sent by Hela), and then Thor and the Asgardians come in and have to break it up/stop it. Everything is going crazy after the destruction of the bifrost, and Odin is very possibly being seen as weak right now, and so everybody else is taking advantage of that.

In regards to this army in the Bourne woods fighting specifically, someone recently posted this article which has some similar elements to what I am now thinking (not all but some)

http://celluloidandcigaretteburns.bl...of-surtur.html

In particular check out the picture of Hela's army. The guys in the Bourne woods do not look dead like this but the helmets and dress look similar, also at least some warriors have black around their eyes that I've seen that make me wonder about them looking more dead with some CGI later. And many look like demons or trolls, and different people, which according to info I've read about Nornheim, there are all sorts of different beings living in Nornheim. This would explain such a vast array of characters in the pictures (none of which appear to be Dark Elves). Anyway, I dont want to reiterate every point that was in the Kurse thread, but it seems like it is very likely this scenario here that this is Nornheim vs Vanaheim or vs Niflheim and then Thor and the Asgardian soldiers step in.

The stuff the above article has speculation about Hela being Loki's mother, I find that to be very plausible. They do sometimes give the characters a different background and change a few aspects to go with the MCU, and make it more accessible and less confusing to the general audience. and it would be easier to explain Hela (if they explain her at all) as being Loki's mother than his daughter at this point, since Hela seems sort of likely to be the Alice Krige role, and Alice definitely looks older than Loki. Hela seems like the kind of girl who might hook up with Laufey. LOL On top of that if the Frigga dying thing is true then that is the perfect time to bring in Loki's birth mother, and have her try to control him or get him on her side to take over Asgard. Another point, as some of you know I've often wondered about stuff like Loki's hair (when the Frost giants are bald), and why his bone structure doesn't look like the other frost giants. They really just turned him blue with red eyes in Thor 1, and that crown design on his forehead doesn't look like the Frost giants so much either. Even as a baby, or when he changes completely over, he just doesn't quite look full frost giant, and I think that's on purpose. Plus Odin completely left out anything about his mother (probably figured the revelation about Laufey was enough of a shock for him right then). So as some of you know I believe in this MCU incarnation Loki will only be half frost giant for a variety of reasons that I've already posted elsewhere (mostly in the Loki thread). Plus that gives Odin yet another reason to take in Loki as a baby and try to raise him to be a good man, if he is the product of not only Laufey but Hela as well. So with that in mind, it makes perfect sense to bring in Hela as Loki's mother, and have her try to get him on her side to help her take over Asgard. (of course, that doesn't mean he wont double cross her like he did Laufey, tricky sonofagun that he is. ) and this would go along with an earlier idea I had about the fights filmed in Iceland where Loki and Thor were supposed to be on different sides. In this case Loki could be leading an army of "dishonored dead" for Hela. and again, that doesnt mean he's going to stay on that side, I continue to think he will be crossing and double crossing. Or the other theory I had about that fight is that people were mistakenly assuming that Thor and Loki are on different sides in this fight, when they are on the same side in fact, vs Hela's army. Also in regards to that army, I could be wrong but I dont recall anything coming out about what the opposing army looked like in Iceland, and I would think if it were the elves something would have come out describing them. So I think the armies fighting there might look all like the Bourne woods guys, and possibly meant to be a war taking place on Niflheim since the landscape described for that scene would seem to make perfect sense for that realm.

So the stuff about Hela's army there, yes. I am thinking that more and more, still not so sure about Surtur showing up yet, but a possibility. But I'm still thinking he should wait for Thor 3, there is enough going on here. With Hela's army, Malekith and Kurse, plus definitely Jane Thor and Loki stuff to deal with, and probably at least some Odin and Frigga stuff as well, I mean, this movie is jam packed already. It won't be 3 hours, that's for sure.

The Fandral rumor that he has there, that's the first I'd heard of that. certainly possible A LOT of characters will die. The films alternate name is "Thursday Mourning" after all...


I have more I could post but I think that's probably enough to start with... novel that it is...

thoughts?


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Old 11-16-2012, 12:03 PM   #2
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

Thanks for starting this thread, elizah.

I thought I would provide links to the major spoilers we've been discussing, for handy reference.

First, in September, marvel_freshman posted:

From the famous stuntman Curtis Rivers, who's working on the movie.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Quote:
Currently running away from a large spaceship as it crash lands into a palace I'm guarding (as you do!). Can't say anymore than that. Shhhh.

The original post is at: http://forums.superherohype.com/show...e#post24352429
(about 4 posts down)


More recently, the stuntman Andrew Lawden gave an interview.
Link (from elizah, as I recall) to the interview: http://thegungancouncil.podbean.com/...andrew-lawden/

Highlights from the Andrew Lawden interview: http://screenrant.com/iron-man-3-tho...lers-rumors/3/

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Old 11-16-2012, 12:17 PM   #3
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

Thanks American Maid.

That Curtis Rivers spoiler came about the same time they were filming the Bourne scenes. Hm... and I missed those videos posted on that page before so will have to take a peak at all of that! lol

in regards to Curtis River's spoiler...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
In comics (and I think in mythology too) Hela's apparently constructs a ship with plans to use it to conquer Asgard and the 9 realms.

FMI: http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/h/hela.htm

Hela has sought for ages to bring more Asgardian souls under her control, and especially longs to possess the souls of Odin and his son Thor. In recent years, when Odin's attention had strayed from the rule of Valhalla, Hela tried to annex that realm to her own, hoping to consolidate her power over all of Asgard's dead. Eventually Odin grew aware of her ambitions and opposed them. Hela finally withdrew to her own realms, and Odin reestablished his control over Valhalla. Asgard continues to rule Valhalla to this day. For untold ages Hela had directed the construction of a gigantic ship, Naflgar, said to be made of the fingernails of the dead. Hela planned that when Naflgar was finished, she would send an army of the dead to Asgard in it to destroy the gods.

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Old 11-16-2012, 12:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
Thanks American Maid.

That Curtis Rivers spoiler came about the same time they were filming the Bourne scenes. Hm... and I missed those videos posted on that page before so will have to take a peak at all of that! lol

in regards to Curtis River's spoiler...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
In comics (and I think in mythology too) Hela's apparently constructs a ship with plans to use it to conquer Asgard and the 9 realms.

FMI: http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/h/hela.htm

Hela has sought for ages to bring more Asgardian souls under her control, and especially longs to possess the souls of Odin and his son Thor. In recent years, when Odin's attention had strayed from the rule of Valhalla, Hela tried to annex that realm to her own, hoping to consolidate her power over all of Asgard's dead. Eventually Odin grew aware of her ambitions and opposed them. Hela finally withdrew to her own realms, and Odin reestablished his control over Valhalla. Asgard continues to rule Valhalla to this day. For untold ages Hela had directed the construction of a gigantic ship, Naflgar, said to be made of the fingernails of the dead. Hela planned that when Naflgar was finished, she would send an army of the dead to Asgard in it to destroy the gods.
That could be! Hadn't thought of that. But that might mean that
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Hela
has a bigger role than we previously thought.

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Old 11-16-2012, 12:24 PM   #5
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

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Originally Posted by American Maid View Post
That could be! Hadn't thought of that. But that might mean that
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Hela
has a bigger role than we previously thought.
exactly what i am thinking now.

maybe
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Hela is working for Surtur? Or they are working together? IF anyone is going to be connected to him, I can totally see it being her. Her being the character that ties it ALL together

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Old 11-16-2012, 12:28 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by jaqua99 View Post
exactly what i am thinking now.

maybe
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Hela is working for Surtur? Or they are working together? IF anyone is going to be connected to him, I can totally see it being her. Her being the character that ties it ALL together
Ooo, I *like* this idea!

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
She probably sees it as a high-yield-for-investment way to get more souls.

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Old 11-16-2012, 12:21 PM   #7
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
Thanks American Maid.

That Curtis Rivers spoiler came about the same time they were filming the Bourne scenes. Hm... and I missed those videos posted on that page before so will have to take a peak at all of that! lol

in regards to Curtis River's spoiler...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
In comics (and I think in mythology too) Hela's apparently constructs a ship with plans to use it to conquer Asgard and the 9 realms.

FMI: http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/h/hela.htm

Hela has sought for ages to bring more Asgardian souls under her control, and especially longs to possess the souls of Odin and his son Thor. In recent years, when Odin's attention had strayed from the rule of Valhalla, Hela tried to annex that realm to her own, hoping to consolidate her power over all of Asgard's dead. Eventually Odin grew aware of her ambitions and opposed them. Hela finally withdrew to her own realms, and Odin reestablished his control over Valhalla. Asgard continues to rule Valhalla to this day. For untold ages Hela had directed the construction of a gigantic ship, Naflgar, said to be made of the fingernails of the dead. Hela planned that when Naflgar was finished, she would send an army of the dead to Asgard in it to destroy the gods.
yeah now that you say this, you have altered my thinking into believing that Hela certainly WILL be in this movie. I always thought she may make a cameo, but one of those armies very well may be hers

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Old 11-16-2012, 12:25 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by jaqua99 View Post
yeah now that you say this, you have altered my thinking into believing that Hela certainly WILL be in this movie. I always thought she may make a cameo, but one of those armies very well may be hers
Yay for me! I altered your thinking! LOL I feel so powerful right now...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
and again if they are making some alterations to her character, perhaps partially to try to surprise the old comic book fans some too, it could be that "a shadowy enemy that predates the universe itself" and "an enemy that not even Odin and Asgard can withstand" will be Hela.


Now I know that Krige said she has a small role, but it may be another actress, or it may be able to be accomplished without her having a lot of scenes. So that's my explanation for that.

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Old 11-16-2012, 12:27 PM   #9
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Yay for me! I altered your thinking! LOL I feel so powerful right now...
You're not *really* riding high until you get a "bingo" from him. Or a thumbs-up

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Old 11-16-2012, 01:35 PM   #10
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
Thanks American Maid.

That Curtis Rivers spoiler came about the same time they were filming the Bourne scenes. Hm... and I missed those videos posted on that page before so will have to take a peak at all of that! lol

in regards to Curtis River's spoiler...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
In comics (and I think in mythology too) Hela's apparently constructs a ship with plans to use it to conquer Asgard and the 9 realms.

FMI: http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/h/hela.htm

Hela has sought for ages to bring more Asgardian souls under her control, and especially longs to possess the souls of Odin and his son Thor. In recent years, when Odin's attention had strayed from the rule of Valhalla, Hela tried to annex that realm to her own, hoping to consolidate her power over all of Asgard's dead. Eventually Odin grew aware of her ambitions and opposed them. Hela finally withdrew to her own realms, and Odin reestablished his control over Valhalla. Asgard continues to rule Valhalla to this day. For untold ages Hela had directed the construction of a gigantic ship, Naflgar, said to be made of the fingernails of the dead. Hela planned that when Naflgar was finished, she would send an army of the dead to Asgard in it to destroy the gods.
Wait .....

If Hela is the Goddess of Death, perhaps they're going to tie her into Thanos.

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Old 11-16-2012, 01:40 PM   #11
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Wait .....

If Hela is the Goddess of Death, perhaps they're going to tie her into Thanos.
Hela's not the same character as Mistress Death, though.

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Old 11-16-2012, 01:42 PM   #12
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Hela's not the same character as Mistress Death, though.
I understand that in the comics it's not .... but for the sake of tying elements together in the MCU, just think about it.

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Old 11-16-2012, 12:16 PM   #13
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Um...all Malekith wants to do is come to Earth and learn how to kick it Gangnam style? *shrug*

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Old 11-16-2012, 12:19 PM   #14
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Default Re: Thor 2 Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
I hope it's okay to start this thread, this way the other news and spoilers thread can be more for oooohing and awwing at the spoilery pictures, and other brand new news and general discussion, and this thread can more explore some general plot ideas based on those spoilers and figure out how it all ties in as a whole. It seems like that type of talk might get lost with the floods of comments about pictures, etc... and it would be easier to keep track of everything in one thread to, again tie everything in together for the bigger picture, rather than all over the place.

so, SPOILERS Be warned! Run away from this thread if you dont want to be spoiled for Thor 2!!! I'm going to put this in spoiler tags for now and people can let me know, if this thread stays, if that is necessary or not here. I dont think it is due to the thread title but I'll put it up for now.

Okay so for those joining in late, we were discussing in the Kurse thread starting about page 8 about if those in the pictures we are seeing this week are the Dark Elves then who the heck are the warriors fighting in the pictures that were taken in the Bourne woods a while back and where was that taking place. Also there has been lots of good discussion in the Alice Krige thread about her role so check that out too.

We also have some interesting discussion about "Moral Sacrifice" in the Thor thread starting at page 11 which I think is very much going to be a theme and tie in to what happens to Thor in Thor 2, and we can maybe discuss that more here as well. (again I dont want to just repeat everything, just trying to move the discussions together to try to get the bigger picture.)

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Suffice to say, my theory on the Bourne woods fighting scenes is that there is are two kingdoms fighting (per what the studio put out about it) and that it is probably Nornheim (part of Asgard but Karnilla's kingdom), being attacked by either Vanaheim or an army from Niflheim (army of dishonored dead sent by Hela), and then Thor and the Asgardians come in and have to break it up/stop it. Everything is going crazy after the destruction of the bifrost, and Odin is very possibly being seen as weak right now, and so everybody else is taking advantage of that.

In regards to this army in the Bourne woods fighting specifically, someone recently posted this article which has some similar elements to what I am now thinking (not all but some)

http://celluloidandcigaretteburns.bl...of-surtur.html

In particular check out the picture of Hela's army. The guys in the Bourne woods do not look dead like this but the helmets and dress look similar, also at least some warriors have black around their eyes that I've seen that make me wonder about them looking more dead with some CGI later. And many look like demons or trolls, and different people, which according to info I've read about Nornheim, there are all sorts of different beings living in Nornheim. This would explain such a vast array of characters in the pictures (none of which appear to be Dark Elves). Anyway, I dont want to reiterate every point that was in the Kurse thread, but it seems like it is very likely this scenario here that this is Nornheim vs Vanaheim or vs Niflheim and then Thor and the Asgardian soldiers step in.

The stuff the above article has speculation about Hela being Loki's mother, I find that to be very plausible. They do sometimes give the characters a different background and change a few aspects to go with the MCU, and make it more accessible and less confusing to the general audience. and it would be easier to explain Hela (if they explain her at all) as being Loki's mother than his daughter at this point, since Hela seems sort of likely to be the Alice Krige role, and Alice definitely looks older than Loki. Hela seems like the kind of girl who might hook up with Laufey. LOL On top of that if the Frigga dying thing is true then that is the perfect time to bring in Loki's birth mother, and have her try to control him or get him on her side to take over Asgard. Another point, as some of you know I've often wondered about stuff like Loki's hair (when the Frost giants are bald), and why his bone structure doesn't look like the other frost giants. They really just turned him blue with red eyes in Thor 1, and that crown design on his forehead doesn't look like the Frost giants so much either. Even as a baby, or when he changes completely over, he just doesn't quite look full frost giant, and I think that's on purpose. Plus Odin completely left out anything about his mother (probably figured the revelation about Laufey was enough of a shock for him right then). So as some of you know I believe in this MCU incarnation Loki will only be half frost giant for a variety of reasons that I've already posted elsewhere (mostly in the Loki thread). Plus that gives Odin yet another reason to take in Loki as a baby and try to raise him to be a good man, if he is the product of not only Laufey but Hela as well. So with that in mind, it makes perfect sense to bring in Hela as Loki's mother, and have her try to get him on her side to help her take over Asgard. (of course, that doesn't mean he wont double cross her like he did Laufey, tricky sonofagun that he is. ) and this would go along with an earlier idea I had about the fights filmed in Iceland where Loki and Thor were supposed to be on different sides. In this case Loki could be leading an army of "dishonored dead" for Hela. and again, that doesnt mean he's going to stay on that side, I continue to think he will be crossing and double crossing. Or the other theory I had about that fight is that people were mistakenly assuming that Thor and Loki are on different sides in this fight, when they are on the same side in fact, vs Hela's army. Also in regards to that army, I could be wrong but I dont recall anything coming out about what the opposing army looked like in Iceland, and I would think if it were the elves something would have come out describing them. So I think the armies fighting there might look all like the Bourne woods guys, and possibly meant to be a war taking place on Niflheim since the landscape described for that scene would seem to make perfect sense for that realm.

So the stuff about Hela's army there, yes. I am thinking that more and more, still not so sure about Surtur showing up yet, but a possibility. But I'm still thinking he should wait for Thor 3, there is enough going on here. With Hela's army, Malekith and Kurse, plus definitely Jane Thor and Loki stuff to deal with, and probably at least some Odin and Frigga stuff as well, I mean, this movie is jam packed already. It won't be 3 hours, that's for sure.

The Fandral rumor that he has there, that's the first I'd heard of that. certainly possible A LOT of characters will die. The films alternate name is "Thursday Mourning" after all...


I have more I could post but I think that's probably enough to start with... novel that it is...

thoughts?
Okay. Since I don't know what should be seen or not, I am just going to spoiler the rest of my post :P

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Oh boy Elizah, where to start, where to start..

Alright. First of all, I am not entirely sure I agree with multiple characters dying. I don't think we will see any of the warrior's three die. I hope not. As for the matter regarding the goofy looking army, so, you think that due to the bifrost being destroyed, that there is a battle going on between realms? I assume one thing that leads you in that direction is the pictures of the troll looking creatures, dead creatures, and creatures wearing helmets? Certainly a possibility. Especially if we are going to see the 9 realms. I can honestly say, I don't really have an opinion on who the army/armies are. But you believe that these two are fighting, and thor and the asgardians intervene, correct?

While that is a possiiblity, I am not entirely sure I am onboard with that, yet. It seems like there is a lot going on. Having Karnilla in there MAY be a bit much.

So lets take a look at the 3 most logical theories right now.

1. Karnilla's kingdom is fighting Vanaheim or Niflheim. This being the difference in the two armies. One of the armies she is fighting being Hela and her undead army. Which IS plausible

2. It is Hela's army entirely, battling Thor and whoever

3. It is an army of people from the universe formed by Thanos to infiltrate the 9 realms for Loki and Asgard. A bit of contradiction here. Thanos does have other motives, so I don't think him taking the time to build an army is something he would do. If he appears in this movie, which I am not doubting, I think it will most likely be just him, and The Other.

as for the whole Loki Frost giant thing, I personally like to assume it is Odin's magic that physically made him Asgardian.

As for Surtur. I prefer Thor 3 as well. But there is no doubt, his presence WILL be felt through out this movie. and more than likely, ultimately, the major plot of this movie will be because of Surtur.

Don't forget the synopsis, "a shadowy enemy that predates the universe itself" and "an enemy that not even Odin and Asgard can withstand.....A shadowy enemy...AN enemy. In the comics, Surtur is one of the oldest beings in the universe, although he doesn't predate it, he is as old as it. That certainly can be altered. And an enemy that not even odin and asgard can withstand. When I think of a single enemy capable of taking on Odin and Asgard, story wise, it is Surtur. Given the fact that this SOUNDS like Surtur, and the fact that the exact arc this movie is based on ends with Surtur, I think it is safe to say that Surtur WILL have a presence in the movie. Now whether he appears at the end of the movie, or an after credit scene to set up a Surtur saga for Thor 3, I don't know, but I would bet my but that Surtur's presence will be felt



and that is how I feel about that

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Old 11-16-2012, 02:33 PM   #15
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by American Maid View Post
Regarding the casting of Alice Krige:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Reading through Hela's profile on Marvel.wikia, it doesnt' look like possession is in her wheelhouse. It also seems like she wouldn't prefer to possess someone anyway, since her own form would be a lot more powerful than what she would borrow from a Midgardian (the page says she can go toe-to-toe with Thor!!!)
I think it's a power that they can certainly add to the character, if they want, even if it's not in there to start with. And I think also that if Hela is related to Loki as she is in the comics, then more sneaky ways of getting what she wants, could certainly be used than just pure power. and this could certainly be a sneaky way of getting inside info on the Asgardians and how to defeat them.

Quote:
Regarding breaking Thor's heart:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Here's a piece that I haven't yet fit into the overall narrative. Feige clarified for us in April that they are not in love; this is a quick crush over three days in the desert. Deciding whether they know/like/love each other will be on the agenda for Thor2. (So I have always been careful to characterize Thor's feelings for Jane at present as "sincere".) People seem to think these spoilers all occur really early in the story. So Jane must get possessed before she and Thor would have gotten very far in the know/like/love conversation. So certainly Thor cares for her and would be distraught at her peril. But I'm not certain her suffering (and potential demise) would be the kind of life-altering heartbreak that we've speculated on in the past. The relationship would need to be further along than it is likely to be at the point of the possession. (As I'm sure you'd guess, I think the relationship is capable of getting there, and has in the books. But I don't think it would be there at the beginning of the movie.)

So I wonder if Jane is possessed for only part of the movie, and the second half of the movie is digesting that experience and having that experience inform the know/like/love conversation. But it's not clear to me when she would shake off the malevolent spirit.
or this happens to her half way through or towards the end, after they have had a chance to meet up again, and maybe spend some time together. Although I'm having trouble coming up with an excuse for him to be down there for that, with everything hitting the fan everywhere else.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
and actually if Malekith makes a play for her early on, (if he's able to find out about her somehow, through Loki or some magical way) and then he tries to kidnap her to use as bait just as he grabs Lorelei, but Thor stops him or gets her back, then that might be a legit reason for him taking her back to Asgard with him for a while. And this could be what the current fighting scenes being filmed are about also. Maybe... although I was thinking some of the shadow boxing stuff was against a CGI Kurse, which I think will be late in the movie. Plus I think that Malekith is more likely to grab Jane in a sneaky way, as I think he does Lorelei in the comics, and not come down with a huge army destroying stuff to do it. They actually have a shapeshifting elf pose as Lorelei in the comics for a time I guess, so that certainly could be what the "possession" is in reference to, actually, now that I've found that out. But then that would mean there would be some scenes with Jane, not Jane at all, and Jane is actually with Malekith through much of this. That could certainly lead into a "moral sacrifice" situation, if there ever was one.


Quote:
One more twist of the knife for Thor:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
elizah put forward the idea in one of the other threads that maybe Thor is ordered by Odin to focus on defending Asgard and let the Dark Elves run amok on Midgard, The supposition continues that maybe he defies the order and defends Midgard.

The knife-twist is this: suppose the palace in Asgard City is overrun while Thor is away, and that's when Frigga is killed? Certainly everyone will have an opinion about Thor's decision, to paraphrase something that Tom Hiddleston said.
Yes, I have wondered about that, or...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
This is when Odin is killed. Now here is a crazy idea, but I'll be curious what jaqua99 thinks especially. What if, Surtur does appear, in addition to Hela and Malekith, and Thor is on Earth defending Earth, and it's just Odin and Loki and the Asgardians vs Surtur and Hela's armies, and Odin is killed (probably taking out Surtur in the process, so a BIG death). This would be a MAJOR twist on the comics. And since the Asgardians have not read the comics, they dont know that Surtur kills Odin anyway (neither would Thor know this for that matter), so they could easily blame and shun Thor for not being there when he was needed most on Asgard. And most interesting of all, if Odin is dead, and possibly Frigga dead, and Thor being shunned by the people of Asgard, who is the only successor to the throne left? BINGO. Particularly if he chooses to fight beside Odin and the other Asgardians.

Now I know Tyr is supposed to be in there, so there may be him as an option too, but I thought it was more interesting if it were Loki. also I'm sort of thinking Tyr may not be a brother to Thor in this, possibly of Odin though, and I'm also thinking he may be already dead and involved with the Valhalla forces, so not a likely successor for that reason.


crazy idea I know but it would sure as hell be a surprise twist to the comics fans!


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Old 11-17-2012, 12:52 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
I think it's a power that they can certainly add to the character, if they want, even if it's not in there to start with. And I think also that if Hela is related to Loki as she is in the comics, then more sneaky ways of getting what she wants, could certainly be used than just pure power. and this could certainly be a sneaky way of getting inside info on the Asgardians and how to defeat them.
I think you're right--they could do this.

This next quote is out of context but applicable here, too:

Quote:
Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
crazy idea I know but it would sure as hell be a surprise twist to the comics fans!
You're right--they do have to change it up, otherwise, it's just a flip-book for the original comic.



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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
This is when Odin is killed. Now here is a crazy idea, but I'll be curious what jaqua99 thinks especially. What if, Surtur does appear, in addition to Hela and Malekith, and Thor is on Earth defending Earth, and it's just Odin and Loki and the Asgardians vs Surtur and Hela's armies, and Odin is killed (probably taking out Surtur in the process, so a BIG death). This would be a MAJOR twist on the comics. And since the Asgardians have not read the comics, they dont know that Surtur kills Odin anyway (neither would Thor know this for that matter), so they could easily blame and shun Thor for not being there when he was needed most on Asgard. And most interesting of all, if Odin is dead, and possibly Frigga dead, and Thor being shunned by the people of Asgard, who is the only successor to the throne left? BINGO. Particularly if he chooses to fight beside Odin and the other Asgardians.

Now I know Tyr is supposed to be in there, so there may be him as an option too, but I thought it was more interesting if it were Loki. also I'm sort of thinking Tyr may not be a brother to Thor in this, possibly of Odin though, and I'm also thinking he may be already dead and involved with the Valhalla forces, so not a likely successor for that reason.


crazy idea I know but it would sure as hell be a surprise twist to the comics fans!
It's really hard to let go of the "For Asgard!"/"For Midgard!"/"For Myself!" moment, though. BUT

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I've seen people write that at the same time Surtur is fighting with Odin and the boys, his army is attacking Midgard at--where else?--New York. The Asgardian army is down there fighting them. So what you propose is actually not as big of a leap as it might originally appear, aside from moving away from that one iconic page in the book.

Also, as I understand, Surtur smashes the Bifrost with Twilight to cut off the army from coming back to aid Odin & Sons. I had earlier quipped that they have to hurry up and repair the Bifrost so that it's ready for Surtur to smash. But maybe they just won't bother--lol.


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since the Asgardians have not read the comics, they dont know that Surtur kills Odin anyway (neither would Thor know this for that matter),
Hee hee--funny you should mention that. I saw a panel one time in which Sif says to Thor something to the effect of, "I'm hoping that the fact that my actions in the Ragnarok and those of the Warriors Three are not attested to in the Poetic Edda means that we still have some freedom to affect the outcome."

Also, there's a side story (ie, not 616 continuity) called Thor: The Mighty Avenger. When Jane first meets Thor and pulls out a book of Norse mythology to show him, the image that is in the book is from the 616 comics, Kirby-era Thor.

Finally, I heard that someone is going to tease Tony Stark in Iron Man 3 about being in the "Superfriends".

More seriously, I recall that Hemsworth said in an interview one time that Vikings took their dreams very seriously. If they dreamt they would die in the next battle, they were certain it would happen. Conversely, if they didn't dream it, not gonna happen. He asserted that gave them the fearlessness for which they were famous in battle. Presumably the Asgardians would reflect that to some extent. So if no one (especially Frigga) dreamt of bad things from Surtur, then they probably would assume it would all work out (although I do recall in that famous For Asgard/Midgard/Myself page, Odin does say something to the effect of, "what better way for a god than to die with his sons by his side?")

Quote:
Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
and actually if Malekith makes a play for her early on, (if he's able to find out about her somehow, through Loki or some magical way) and then he tries to kidnap her to use as bait just as he grabs Lorelei, but Thor stops him or gets her back, then that might be a legit reason for him taking her back to Asgard with him for a while. And this could be what the current fighting scenes being filmed are about also. Maybe... although I was thinking some of the shadow boxing stuff was against a CGI Kurse, which I think will be late in the movie. Plus I think that Malekith is more likely to grab Jane in a sneaky way, as I think he does Lorelei in the comics, and not come down with a huge army destroying stuff to do it. They actually have a shapeshifting elf pose as Lorelei in the comics for a time I guess, so that certainly could be what the "possession" is in reference to, actually, now that I've found that out. But then that would mean there would be some scenes with Jane, not Jane at all, and Jane is actually with Malekith through much of this. That could certainly lead into a "moral sacrifice" situation, if there ever was one.
Okay, I guess I need a little help connecting the dots here. Sorry to be slow on the uptake.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
What exactly is the moral sacrifice to which you are referring? Are you suggesting that Thor might want to kill the not-Jane-elf? I'm a little confused.


Quote:
Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
<A spoiler about Jane>
or this happens to her half way through or towards the end, after [Thor and Jane] have had a chance to meet up again, and maybe spend some time together. Although I'm having trouble coming up with an excuse for him to be down there for that, with everything hitting the fan everywhere else.
That could be, if we think that Andrew Lawden's spoilers could involve plot points from later in the movie. However,
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
he went on to say that Jane, Thor, and Loki go on the journey to the Dark World. So the possession can't come so late in the film. since there seem to be so many events that come after it.


But the main point I wanted to make here was an idea I have about this Greenwich University footage.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
So, we have a big pile of rocks, and the dark elves are marching up the staircase on the backside of the rocks and then up over the pile and onto the set. I think they might be coming out of a space ship that has crashed onto the green of the university. (*Sadly*, not a crater or a trench that Thor or Kurse or some other heavy hitter made Have to hope for a crater in some other fight!) I had also previously observed that it looks like they are going to stage it so that two pillars from one of the university buildings gets knocked out and onto the lawn. I suppose the ship clips the pillars as it lands.

The spoiler from September that marvel_freshman had posted discussed a space ship that crashed into a palace. Presumably this is not the same crash as this Greenwich University set--there'd be no need to duplicate it in green screen.

SOOOOOOOOOOO

Maybe the dark elves attack *both* places *simultaneously*!! And maybe even both ship crashes are simultaneous to the army attack out in the sticks at Bourne Woods. (Yes, Thor is in the Bourne Woods scene, and he's at Greenwich University too, but maybe he's in one place and then flies to the other).

The other conclusion we could draw is that the dark elves are *really* lousy pilots! Either that or they haven't bothered to design landing gear--lol. So not enough Midgardian influence on their culture .

As for how Thor is able to get down there, maybe Jane & Co are finally able to get a portal open (the university recruited her to set up the Center for Interdimensional Studies, with grant money from Stark Industries, etc.) The dark elves have a lot of sleeper agents on Midgard (yielding the influence of the two realms on each other that marvel_freshman speculated about). There would have been a lot of preliminary tests, so they knew in advance this was coming. So when the dark elves were ready to move on Asgard, they figured they should hit Earth too. Because clearly they are ready for a higher form of war.

I think Natalie Portman was only on set on Tuesday. (Her trailer was labeled "Jane" on Monday and by Wednesday it was labeled "Malekith"). So maybe Thor flies through the portal and tells them to get up to Asgard where it is safer, not realizing that the other attack is coming.

Hmmm, that doesn't quite fit with the Bourne Woods scene, though. Okay, new idea: the army attack at Bourne Woods is completely uncoordinated with the two ship attacks. The dark elves see that that is going down, and they decide this is a good moment to pile on too. So then they launch their ships. The one headed for Midgard gets there before the one that gets to Asgard.


Okay, that's plenty I'm sure.

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Old 11-16-2012, 03:13 PM   #17
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Has so much information about the plot been leaked?

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Old 11-16-2012, 03:15 PM   #18
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Has so much information about the plot been leaked?
some, not A LOT, but based on what has leaked, and pictures and what happens in the comics we are just speculating. most of this is really speculation, but the involvement of spoilers so heavily in the speculation is why the tags.

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Old 11-16-2012, 03:38 PM   #19
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ANd I'm just going to stick this stuff I posted about "moral sacrifice" from the Thor thread in here, since Marvel Freshman just brought this subject up in the Spoilers/Pictures/News thread. In case anyone wants to talk about this here too...

Something interesting I've been considering. There is a bus on the new set pics with a movie clearly titled "Moral Sacrifice" advertised on it. This is very very likely something that is a hint as to what is in store for Thor to deal with in Thor 2. I would be very very surprised if it wasn't. How do you think that "moral sacrifice" might influence the story for Thor in Thor 2?

And I dont believe it's just a random movie title, "self sacrifice" was clearly a theme for Thor in Thor 1, so seems like a story about "moral sacrifice" is a likely follow up. My theory with some recent spoilers so tags...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
at the moment the theory I have, explains why Thor is alone fighting the Dark Elves and Malekith in these new scenes filming now. If he is asked by Odin to let the Dark Elves have Midgard, because there is so much bad going on in Asgard and the other realms. With the fighting in Bourne Woods shown a while back, it seems like there may be another non elf army threatening everyone else as well, and so it's seen as "for the greater good" that Thor just stay on fighting for Asgard and to help fight off this army, and ignore for now what happens to Midgard. But this is not a "moral sacrifice" Thor can accept. He vowed to defend Midgard and wont stand by and let it be taken over or destroyed, and so he deserts Asgard willingly, and defies father again, and goes down to defend Earth against the Dark Elves anyway. This would certainly make Odin less likely to make him King if he seems he's more invested in saving and protecting another realm than staying and defending Asgard and getting the other threat back under control. but at the same time, I can't see Thor doing any less than trying to defend Earth in such a situation. So... thoughts?

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Old 11-16-2012, 05:03 PM   #20
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ANd I'm just going to stick this stuff I posted about "moral sacrifice" from the Thor thread in here, since Marvel Freshman just brought this subject up in the Spoilers/Pictures/News thread. In case anyone wants to talk about this here too...

Something interesting I've been considering. There is a bus on the new set pics with a movie clearly titled "Moral Sacrifice" advertised on it. This is very very likely something that is a hint as to what is in store for Thor to deal with in Thor 2. I would be very very surprised if it wasn't. How do you think that "moral sacrifice" might influence the story for Thor in Thor 2?

And I dont believe it's just a random movie title, "self sacrifice" was clearly a theme for Thor in Thor 1, so seems like a story about "moral sacrifice" is a likely follow up. My theory with some recent spoilers so tags...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
at the moment the theory I have, explains why Thor is alone fighting the Dark Elves and Malekith in these new scenes filming now. If he is asked by Odin to let the Dark Elves have Midgard, because there is so much bad going on in Asgard and the other realms. With the fighting in Bourne Woods shown a while back, it seems like there may be another non elf army threatening everyone else as well, and so it's seen as "for the greater good" that Thor just stay on fighting for Asgard and to help fight off this army, and ignore for now what happens to Midgard. But this is not a "moral sacrifice" Thor can accept. He vowed to defend Midgard and wont stand by and let it be taken over or destroyed, and so he deserts Asgard willingly, and defies father again, and goes down to defend Earth against the Dark Elves anyway. This would certainly make Odin less likely to make him King if he seems he's more invested in saving and protecting another realm than staying and defending Asgard and getting the other threat back under control. but at the same time, I can't see Thor doing any less than trying to defend Earth in such a situation. So... thoughts?

I just realized I should ask you for clarification. When you say "moral sacrifice", it sounds like you mean allowing someone to perish through inaction or neglect. Is that right?

As I mentioned in the other thread, I did a little Googling and found the phrase to mean slightly different things to different people. But it tended to mean "justified killing" or "justified murder". So the sacrifice concerns somebody actively slaying someone under very specific circumstances.

By contrast, it sounds like what you are describing is someone dying due to someone else's inaction. Is that what you are referring to by a "moral sacrifice"?

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Old 11-16-2012, 05:26 PM   #21
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I just realized I should ask you for clarification. When you say "moral sacrifice", it sounds like you mean allowing someone to perish through inaction or neglect. Is that right?

As I mentioned in the other thread, I did a little Googling and found the phrase to mean slightly different things to different people. But it tended to mean "justified killing" or "justified murder". So the sacrifice concerns somebody actively slaying someone under very specific circumstances.

By contrast, it sounds like what you are describing is someone dying due to someone else's inaction. Is that what you are referring to by a "moral sacrifice"?
Yes, It could mean either, I believe, but I am thinking more sacrificing your morals for the greater good. for instance allowing 1 person to suffer or die, in order to save many from the same fate, even though you feel it is morally wrong to stand by and let even one person die under any circumstances.

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Old 11-16-2012, 05:38 PM   #22
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By the way, from that same site I linked in the first post, in another article mentions " The sequel will be mostly set in Asgard and other worlds with the cast of Asgardians being doubled according to Kevin Feige." I have not been able to find the original article to reference for that. Has this been mentioned here before and confirmed? If so anyone have a link to the original interview? Idris I think said something like this too about the cast coming in (not doubled but a new cast of characters). But it seems like we're missing A LOT from the IMDB and cast list if this is so.

If true that the Asgardian cast will be doubled (and I'm assuming he means main speaking cast) then to start with we have:
Odin, Frigga, Thor, Loki, Sif, Heimdall, Hogun, Volstagg, & Fandral

So 9 more than that? Really???? Because, if that's right, man that's A LOT! And there are only two definite (for likely speaking roles) so far: Tyr and Einherjar Captain

edit: Idris said in a vid interview recently: "We got a great set of new characters coming in" and in another previous interview said "In the new film we’re going to get to know Heimdall the Asgardian a bit better, and we’re going to get to know Asgard a bit better,” Elba said. “I can’t say too much, but the expansion of Thor in his world is going to be huge.


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Old 11-16-2012, 06:33 PM   #23
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Hm.. more than a little worried now that they cram too much in it :/

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Old 11-16-2012, 07:42 PM   #24
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Hm.. more than a little worried now that they cram too much in it :/
If referring to my post above. Yup that is a worry. However, again I'm curious about the wording from the original interview, if Feige specifically said "Asgarian cast" or just the cast in general, since that would make a big difference.

As for the possible Asgardian Cast additions, there are two definite as named above. I suspect that the majority of others would have to do with support for the original Asgardian characters, and support in fighting for Asgard, and also to set up family and friend relationships to help keep the Asgardians "human" and relatable to the audience. (such as someone's sister or brother, or mentor or spouse...) So it might quite small parts mostly, just a few lines here and there to set up relationships prior to any fighting.

And as speculated heavily already in this thread there is at least one (technically) Asgardian villain that seems extremely likely to be making an appearance.

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Old 11-16-2012, 08:12 PM   #25
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By the way, from that same site I linked in the first post, in another article mentions " The sequel will be mostly set in Asgard and other worlds with the cast of Asgardians being doubled according to Kevin Feige." I have not been able to find the original article to reference for that. Has this been mentioned here before and confirmed? If so anyone have a link to the original interview? Idris I think said something like this too about the cast coming in (not doubled but a new cast of characters). But it seems like we're missing A LOT from the IMDB and cast list if this is so.

If true that the Asgardian cast will be doubled (and I'm assuming he means main speaking cast) then to start with we have:
Odin, Frigga, Thor, Loki, Sif, Heimdall, Hogun, Volstagg, & Fandral

So 9 more than that? Really???? Because, if that's right, man that's A LOT! And there are only two definite (for likely speaking roles) so far: Tyr and Einherjar Captain

edit: Idris said in a vid interview recently: "We got a great set of new characters coming in" and in another previous interview said "In the new film were going to get to know Heimdall the Asgardian a bit better, and were going to get to know Asgard a bit better, Elba said. I cant say too much, but the expansion of Thor in his world is going to be huge.
I remember writing up an article on CBM about that. Kevin Feige never said it, but it was included in exclusive reports that Brian Kirk was in talks to direct. The article I wrote up took quotes from Variety & Movie Web.

Quote:
The "Thor" sequel is expected to feature a large cast of Aasgardians and creatures in the Norse mythology-set world.
http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...NBrY2Y.twitter

Thor 2 is expected to double its cast of larger than life Aasgardians and mythical Norse creatures, making it one of the largest scale Marvel adventures to date, second only to The Avengers
http://www.movieweb.com/news/thor-2-...iations?page=4

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