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Old 11-26-2012, 07:23 AM   #1
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Default HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

I think one of these is way overdue. You know what I'm talking about -- that last edge of fanboy nitpick that somehow gives way to a logic and insight so absurd you feel a bit silly just for thinking about it: the Arkham inmate in TDK is really The Mad Hatter?! Mr. Reese is really The Riddler?! But those are just the tip of the ice-berg. There are some theories that transcend normal logic; those which if taken to a place that's more than just a rancid suggestion, those which if devoted into an ideology, which have the potential to become legendary...

I'm talking about those. Unchecked by reason but still somehow rational in your mind.

There are a few suggestions on the "What did you notice after multiple views" thread, but damn it if the Bat-thread's reputation for being insane has any place than we need to push it up to a sixty. I'll start off with the more bizarre ones, but I want the ideas to be put up here and contested with the same level of Bat-zeal and Bat-devotion. Don't go telling the other guy that "it's really reaching" because that's sort of the point of the thread -- to be reaching, but still just believable.

#1

Chris Nolan's The Dark Knight has a subtle allusion to Stanley Kubrick's movies:

The Bat-Garage is an upside-down reflection of the chamber from 2001: A Space Odyssey



Nolan just might've slipped us a very clever (and subtle) reference to his favourite film. Note the visual/aesthetic similarity:

In Stanley Kubrick (one of Nolan's self-confessed inspiration)'s film 2001: A Space Odyssey, the central human figure, Dave, wakes up at the climax of the film in a room that has a strange floor of tiled white lighting. It's bright, iridescent, and illuminates the entire chamber. The room is perhaps one of the most important -- let alone memorable -- scenes in the entire film.




In The Dark Knight , the Bat-Cave is replaced by a chamber/garage/warehouse that is aesthetically similar, at least on its edges.




Whereas in Space Odyssey the tiled/white lights make up the FLOORING, in Bruce's garage, it occupies the CEILING, but the design is curiously the same.



The warehouse is said to replace the Batcave and therefore stores all of Batman's most memorable gear, including his vehicles such as the Bat-pod, the Bat-mobile, the bat-computer, and of course, that sexy (red?) bike.

In A Space Odyssey, Dave sees in the chamber, among other things, the vehicle he uses to transport across space:



[I continued the comparison in this post look it up if you're interested]

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THE JUSTICE BULLETIN published some of my thematic analysis on the symbolism in Nolan's superhero saga.
I call it Heroic Archetypes. You can read the parts on Batman Begins in the following links:
(pt 1; pt 2; pt 3; pt 4; pt 5; pt 6; pt 7)


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Old 11-26-2012, 07:26 AM   #2
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

Interesting read, thanks for posting.

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Old 11-26-2012, 07:52 AM   #3
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe View Post
Interesting read, thanks for posting.
no dude i really wanna extend this madness throw in your own zany theories

I'll give another:


#3 Rachel Dawse is essentially the Barbara Gordon of this series (too crazy you ask? Sorry but Dr. Crane isn't here...)





We essentially have....

A strong-willed, red-headed female character who's part of the group of characters making up the "ordinary people of Gotham," is street-smart, part of the middle-class but still a confidant and independent woman who socializes with the elite citizens of Gotham...







sometimes sports really short hair...






is in an on-again off-again relationship with our "hero" leading to unrequited love and really embracing her namesake from Friends.

Batgirl's been the ultimate "cute girl to have a crush on" for Grayson (and a lot of the fans) for all these years, just as Rachel's the same for Bale-Bats.




and most importantly... is linked with the Joker by a tragic moment that effects her--and by extension Bruce--forever:





[(The Killing Joke -- in the comics it doesn't effect Jim Gordon and drive him over the edge, but in the film, it drives Harvey over his edge]

Did I mention they both have red-hair? Okay so I know what you'll say -- but Barbara already exists in Nolanverse, and Rachel's not exactly Oracle OR Batgirl. Or Bruce's apprentice.

Well my answer to that is .... well... I ... shut up!

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THE JUSTICE BULLETIN published some of my thematic analysis on the symbolism in Nolan's superhero saga.
I call it Heroic Archetypes. You can read the parts on Batman Begins in the following links:
(pt 1; pt 2; pt 3; pt 4; pt 5; pt 6; pt 7)



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Old 11-26-2012, 03:02 PM   #4
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

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Did I mention they both have red-hair?
Rachel is a brunette. Her hair is not red, it's dark brown.

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Old 11-26-2012, 07:33 AM   #5
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

#2 The Kubrickean analogies continue with the Joker -- no not just in the very obvious design and anarchist influences of Alex DeLarge, but in the other idea about the Joker's past.

He tells us a frightening story about how his father was a drinker... and one night he gets crazier than usual...



'Mom' got the knife from the kitchen...





But he doesn't like that... not one bit.

(spoiler tags for an F bomb - the scene has the father threatening mom to stop pointing the damned knife at his face)
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


"Why So Serious"
is essentially the theme of The Shining, and the story about the traumatised little Joker-boy with Ledger is actually this kid:

seeing this:

WHo... yes... happens to be the son of the same guy who played the Joker in the last good Batman film series. I always agreed to the notion that Ledger's Joker is spiritually a bastardized son of Nicholson's Joker.

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THE JUSTICE BULLETIN published some of my thematic analysis on the symbolism in Nolan's superhero saga.
I call it Heroic Archetypes. You can read the parts on Batman Begins in the following links:
(pt 1; pt 2; pt 3; pt 4; pt 5; pt 6; pt 7)


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Old 11-26-2012, 08:10 AM   #6
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment' View Post
#2 The Kubrickean analogies continue with the Joker -- no not just in the very obvious design and anarchist influences of Alex DeLarge, but in the other idea about the Joker's past.

He tells us a frightening story about how his father was a drinker... and one night he gets crazier than usual...



'Mom' got the knife from the kitchen...





But he doesn't like that... not one bit.

(spoiler tags for an F bomb - the scene has the father threatening mom to stop pointing the damned knife at his face)
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


"Why So Serious"
is essentially the theme of The Shining, and the story about the traumatised little Joker-boy with Ledger is actually this kid:

seeing this:

WHo... yes... happens to be the son of the same guy who played the Joker in the last good Batman film series. I always agreed to the notion that Ledger's Joker is spiritually a bastardized son of Nicholson's Joker.


Funny, I watched The Shining recently and couldnt help to notice Ledger's Joker shared some mannerism with Jack (particularly in the bar scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbLB21If2YA)

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Old 12-02-2012, 04:15 PM   #7
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

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Originally Posted by Shedhut View Post
Funny, I watched The Shining recently and couldnt help to notice Ledger's Joker shared some mannerism with Jack (particularly in the bar scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbLB21If2YA)
Same thing happened to me about 2 years after TDK was released. I had never seen the Shining and it was on tv one night so I checked it out with my wife. When that bar scene came up I told her that his mannerisms and just his general acting in that scene reminded me exactly of Ledger's Joker. Glad someone else saw it too.

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Old 12-02-2012, 04:47 PM   #8
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

The shot in TDKR of Batman and Catwoman flying in the Bat over Gotham at night is taken straight from Bladerunner .

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Old 11-26-2012, 01:01 PM   #9
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment' View Post
#2 The Kubrickean analogies continue with the Joker -- no not just in the very obvious design and anarchist influences of Alex DeLarge, but in the other idea about the Joker's past.

He tells us a frightening story about how his father was a drinker... and one night he gets crazier than usual...



'Mom' got the knife from the kitchen...





But he doesn't like that... not one bit.

(spoiler tags for an F bomb - the scene has the father threatening mom to stop pointing the damned knife at his face)
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


"Why So Serious" is essentially the theme of The Shining, and the story about the traumatised little Joker-boy with Ledger is actually this kid:

seeing this:

WHo... yes... happens to be the son of the same guy who played the Joker in the last good Batman film series. I always agreed to the notion that Ledger's Joker is spiritually a bastardized son of Nicholson's Joker.
First story a reference to The Shining, and Jokers second story (to Rachel) a reference to Harley?

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Old 12-02-2012, 03:05 PM   #10
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment' View Post
#2 The Kubrickean analogies continue with the Joker -- no not just in the very obvious design and anarchist influences of Alex DeLarge, but in the other idea about the Joker's past.

He tells us a frightening story about how his father was a drinker... and one night he gets crazier than usual...



'Mom' got the knife from the kitchen...





But he doesn't like that... not one bit.

(spoiler tags for an F bomb - the scene has the father threatening mom to stop pointing the damned knife at his face)
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


"Why So Serious"
is essentially the theme of The Shining, and the story about the traumatised little Joker-boy with Ledger is actually this kid:

seeing this:

WHo... yes... happens to be the son of the same guy who played the Joker in the last good Batman film series. I always agreed to the notion that Ledger's Joker is spiritually a bastardized son of Nicholson's Joker.
I think you're really onto something here. There is no way in hell that this is a coincidence.

Good job!

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Old 12-15-2012, 02:54 PM   #11
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment' View Post
#2 The Kubrickean analogies continue with the Joker -- no not just in the very obvious design and anarchist influences of Alex DeLarge, but in the other idea about the Joker's past.

He tells us a frightening story about how his father was a drinker... and one night he gets crazier than usual...



'Mom' got the knife from the kitchen...





But he doesn't like that... not one bit.

(spoiler tags for an F bomb - the scene has the father threatening mom to stop pointing the damned knife at his face)
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:



Sorry to burst your bubble, but it was a baseball bat she was swinging at him in that scene.

Theory debunked.


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"The Dark Knight Trilogy" is such a pretentious title, I'm leaning more towards "RISES: The Dark Batman Knight Begins".

That's much better.
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:58 PM   #12
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

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Sorry to burst your bubble, but it was a baseball bat she was swinging at him in that scene.

Theory debunked.

But she dropped it and then picked up the knife when she got back to the room. When he axed the door she had the knife.

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Old 11-26-2012, 09:58 AM   #13
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

This thread is trippy. I like it.

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Old 11-26-2012, 10:36 AM   #14
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

What's the Mad Hatter theory?

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Old 11-26-2012, 10:45 AM   #15
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

REAL good thread, but why is this in the TDKR area?

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Old 11-26-2012, 11:03 AM   #16
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

AMAZING thread. The Shining theory is cool as ****!

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Old 11-26-2012, 11:22 AM   #17
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

My mind cannot conceive this level of craziness...

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Old 11-26-2012, 01:35 PM   #18
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

Freud said that our life memories are all pearls in a necklace, and like in a necklace they are all tied to each other.


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Old 11-28-2012, 04:48 AM   #19
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

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First story a reference to The Shining, and Jokers second story (to Rachel) a reference to Harley?
Why not right? I mean sure The Killing Joke essentiallyhas the same origin story but ftn

And of course, who doesn't love thinking about Harl?

Quote:
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Freud said that our life memories are all pearls in a necklace, and like in a necklace they are all tied to each other.

That's ... actually really interesting about the symbolism that grips Batman not just in Nolan-verse but in every incarnation. I think people tend to not look too much into the Freudian implication of hero-myths and stories about heroism a lot these days because Freud's theories have become so much a staple of 20th Century thinking. But it's there, and while I don't pretend to know what Nolan got influenced by or was thinking when he made these movies, I do think that there are more Freudian aspects in the trilogy than we give him credit for.

Nolan's films have always had a Jungian dimension, so there's that as well.

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THE JUSTICE BULLETIN published some of my thematic analysis on the symbolism in Nolan's superhero saga.
I call it Heroic Archetypes. You can read the parts on Batman Begins in the following links:
(pt 1; pt 2; pt 3; pt 4; pt 5; pt 6; pt 7)


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Old 12-15-2012, 08:28 PM   #20
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment' View Post
Why not right? I mean sure The Killing Joke essentiallyhas the same origin story but ftn

And of course, who doesn't love thinking about Harl?



That's ... actually really interesting about the symbolism that grips Batman not just in Nolan-verse but in every incarnation. I think people tend to not look too much into the Freudian implication of hero-myths and stories about heroism a lot these days because Freud's theories have become so much a staple of 20th Century thinking. But it's there, and while I don't pretend to know what Nolan got influenced by or was thinking when he made these movies, I do think that there are more Freudian aspects in the trilogy than we give him credit for.

Nolan's films have always had a Jungian dimension, so there's that as well.
The three movies are pretty archetypical, that's maybe the most important thing about them.

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Old 12-23-2012, 12:23 PM   #21
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

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The three movies are pretty archetypical, that's maybe the most important thing about them.
Still working on that archetypal article on TDK and TDKR here

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THE JUSTICE BULLETIN published some of my thematic analysis on the symbolism in Nolan's superhero saga.
I call it Heroic Archetypes. You can read the parts on Batman Begins in the following links:
(pt 1; pt 2; pt 3; pt 4; pt 5; pt 6; pt 7)


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Old 12-16-2012, 04:48 PM   #22
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

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Freud said that our life memories are all pearls in a necklace, and like in a necklace they are all tied to each other.


Also to re-iterate on this fine observation.

Bruce gave his mother's pearl necklace to Selina, his, presumably future wife.

Isn't there a concept in Freudian theory regarding men that are frozen in time (an arrested development) who are seeking their mothers again in the form of their wives?

Thoughts?

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"The Dark Knight Trilogy" is such a pretentious title, I'm leaning more towards "RISES: The Dark Batman Knight Begins".

That's much better.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:08 PM   #23
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the Arkham inmate in TDK is really The Mad Hatter?!
You mean Thomas Schiff?

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Old 11-26-2012, 02:27 PM   #24
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Blade Runner
The narrows was based on Kowloon( which is pretty much LA from BR).

Rachel Dawes is named after Rachel from BR, and Sean Young was supposed to play Vicky Vale in B89 and then later Catwoman in BR.

The Tumbler is based on the Police Speeder from BR (no front axel & etc).

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Old 12-04-2012, 02:11 PM   #25
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Default Re: HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

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Blade Runner
The narrows was based on Kowloon( which is pretty much LA from BR).

Rachel Dawes is named after Rachel from BR, and Sean Young was supposed to play Vicky Vale in B89 and then later Catwoman in BR.

The Tumbler is based on the Police Speeder from BR (no front axel & etc).
Also the scenes of the Bat landing on a rooftop reminded me a lot of the scenes in Blade Runner with that Police vehicle landing.

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