Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

[the_scream]

I'm a fan of TDKR but the biggest gripe I have is a serious issue with the film. In Batman Begins, it is clear that Gotham is corrupt and both Batman and Raas take different ideological approaches to the corruption. Batman thinks it can be saved. Raas believes it is for the good of the world to allow Gotham to perish as it is beyond saving.

Fast forward 8 years or so later. Batman was right. He managed to manipulate the system and work with Gordon and Dent to make a peaceful Gotham. It required Batmans sacrifice but it demonstrated Gotham was not beyond saving.

So, why is it the reformed League of Shadows cares to destroy Gotham? The film toys with the idea that there is still evil below the surface. But this evil is the League itself. The film also toys with the idea that Talia and Bane want vengeance for Raas death. But vengeance means destroying an entire city of people who didn't have anything to do with his death?

My biggest gripe with the film. Would welcome a rational explanation for what motivates the primary villains to want to kill millions of people.

[Agent Orange]

There is mass social and political corruption. Street criminals are behind bars but men like Daggett are still manipulating those under them and aren't opposed to dealing with shady characters like Bane to get what they want.

Also, the League of Shadows is an extreme fundamentalist group. Since when do fundamentalists ever make sense? Their doctrines are always extreme and questionable. Bottomline: They still see Gotham as rotten to the core and it needs to be cleansed. Bane probably felt especially vindicated when he discovered Commissioner Gordon's speech about Dent.

[TheGuy]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

There is mass social and political corruption. Street criminals are behind bars but men like Daggett are still manipulating those under them and aren't opposed to dealing with shady characters like Bane to get what they want.

Also, the League of Shadows is an extreme fundamentalist group. Since when do fundamentalists ever make sense? Their doctrines are always extreme and questionable. Bottomline: They still see Gotham as rotten to the core and it needs to be cleansed. Bane probably felt especially vindicated when he discovered Commissioner Gordon's speech about Dent.

Well said.

[Hawkeye70000000]

The only thing that Gotham did was lock up all those involved in the mofia world. They still have a corrupt society, just that it deals in the field of white collar crime, which an be harder to prosecute. In BB, Ra's tells Bruce that they tried a different approach to destroy Gotham, economics. In the movie, Dagget's motive is about money and he uses that to obtain power. The scene where bane kills him demonstrates this when he thinks that giving bane money should give him leverage over bane. Also, his attempt to takeover Wayne enterprise with the help of bane.
Bane wanted to prove he was better than Bruce and that that Ra's was wrong by excommunicating him by destroying Gotham. Talia had the same conviction as her father and would gladly die to see come through. She and her father believed Gotham was beyond saving and no matter what Bruce or Gotham did would matter. Bane did not feel the need to sacrifice himself. I.E., when bane tells Bruce that he has too kill him and that he would just have imagine that the bomb exploded and everything; this was meant for bane to leave or find a safe place from the blast.
Lastly, the dent act was corrupt from the beginning since it based on a lie and the people would not have supported it if they knew the truth about Harvey dent.

[Mr. Todd]

Another part of the problem too, from TLOS' perspective, was that Gotham was only able to get rid of criminals en masse on the basis of a lie, which defended a man that was really a murderer.

[the_scream]

I know that Gotham wasn't perfect and that the way they abolished crime was imperfect but to decide to destroy and entire city that is now peaceful seems too much. Unlike other fundamentalist groups of today, I always saw the League of Shadows as having more honour in a strange way. Batman and Raas didn't like each other but there was mutual respect.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Mr. Todd

Another part of the problem too, from TLOS' perspective, was that Gotham was only able to get rid of criminals en masse on the basis of a lie, which defended a man that was really a murderer.

They didn't know that when they came back to Gotham. Bane only discovered the Dent cover up by accident when Gordon was brought to his lair and they found his confessional letter on him. If they knew that BEFORE they came to Gotham, then it would have made a lot more sense. There was no reason for the LOS to destroy Gotham. The city was prospering in a peace time where crime rates were so low that the Mayor was going to retire Gordon.

Greedy businessman like Daggett are everywhere all over the world. Much like how every city has some degree of crime in it like the Mayor said. I don't see the LOS targeting every city in the world. It's a pathetic reason to destroy a whole city because of that. At least Ra's in Begins was all about destroying Gotham when it was overrun with crime and corruption. I could buy into his philosophy. I couldn't take Bane's plan seriously at all. Especially after Ra's and Joker's schemes had some logic to them.

[Hicksatpd]

Originally Posted by The Joker

They didn't know that when they came back to Gotham. Bane only discovered the Dent cover up by accident when Gordon was brought to his lair and they found his confessional letter on him. If they knew that BEFORE they came to Gotham, then it would have made a lot more sense. There was no reason for the LOS to destroy Gotham. The city was prospering in a peace time where crime rates were so low that the Mayor was going to retire Gordon.

Greedy businessman like Daggett are everywhere all over the world. Much like how every city has some degree of crime in it like the Mayor said. I don't see the LOS targeting every city in the world. It's a pathetic reason to destroy a whole city because of that. At least Ra's in Begins was all about destroying Gotham when it was overrun with crime and corruption. I could buy into his philosophy. I couldn't take Bane's plan seriously at all. Especially after Ra's and Joker's schemes had some logic to them.

I agree with you mostly, but I will say that with Bane, let's remember that this guy was basically evil with a dusting of good (feeling the need to protect Talia), and his whole plan was to torture an entire city by giving it false hope before reducing its entire population and infrastructure to ashes. When I think about that, and when I also consider how smart he was, it makes me think that he took advantage of his relationship with Talia to basically be a giant mass murdering prick because he was just that effed up in the head to begin with.

He knew Talia felt similarly about Gotham as her father did, so he worked for/with her so that he could command the League of Shadows for his own sick purpose of torturing and killing millions of people because that's just what he was all about. Meaning that Bane might not have even really believed in the LoS's philosophy, but rather he was abusing it to gain the power he needed to do what he did/almost did in the movie.

The real question is why Talia felt the same as her father. I suppose it's meant to be the obvious: Same genetics, similar living, both in with the league of shadows, and once she got out of the pit at around age 10 (I'm guessing that's about the age), she was also then raised/nurtured by her father. But even still, it gets back to the problem of why Gotham STILL needed to be destroyed at the time of DKR.

I mean the LoS would be phenomenally hypocritical to begrudge someone doing a necessary evil for the greater good, thus they should have no problem with what Bruce and Jim did to get the Harvey Dent Act.

So you hate Bruce for 'killing' your father. Okay. Go kill him, then. But why go along with Bane's wishes regarding the city and its people? Is she just as dark as he is, or did she think she was still doing the greater good? Did she really think she needed to kill millions of innocent to relatively-innocent people just to wipe out the corruption in the white collar community of Gotham? Especially in a city with no organized crime and apparently a pretty clean police force? A good mayor? Just seems inexplicable to me why she would allow Bane to do what he did given the state of Gotham at that time.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Hicksatpd

The real question is why Talia felt the same as her father. I suppose it's meant to be the obvious: Same genetics, similar living, both in with the league of shadows, and once she got out of the pit at around age 10 (I'm guessing that's about the age), she was also then raised/nurtured by her father. But even still, it gets back to the problem of why Gotham STILL needed to be destroyed at the time of DKR.

I mean the LoS would be phenomenally hypocritical to begrudge someone doing a necessary evil for the greater good, thus they should have no problem with what Bruce and Jim did to get the Harvey Dent Act.

So you hate Bruce for 'killing' your father. Okay. Go kill him, then. But why go along with Bane's wishes regarding the city and its people? Is she just as dark as he is, or did she think she was still doing the greater good? Did she really think she needed to kill millions of innocent to relatively-innocent people just to wipe out the corruption in the white collar community of Gotham? Especially in a city with no organized crime and apparently a pretty clean police force? A good mayor? Just seems inexplicable to me why she would allow Bane to do what he did given the state of Gotham at that time.

These are all good questions to ask.

For me, this is why it's important to keep in mind the global scope that the LOS always has to their plans. One doesn't plan to bring "the world's greatest city" to its knees and leave the rest of the world helpless to save it, and then nuke it anyway without considering what effect this might have on the world at large. The scope of the LOS's ideals stretch far beyond Gotham, yet they're fixated on Gotham because of it's symbolic weight as the shining beacon of Western civilization. It's the same idea behind them attacking Rome, IMO.

[jmc]

I can go on forever in this thread, but I'll keep it short. Talia was an idiot who had no idea what the goals were for the LoS or what her fathers intentions were. And the whole revenge thing? I've said this before but she would not have had a strong enough bond with her father to have cared about him after their falling out. And of course all she had to do was blow up the city, so really, she's an idiot.

[Hawkeye70000000]

Talia wanted to complete her father's intentions to destroy Gotham. Killing Bruce was just a reward for not obsessing over it. She had no plans to kill Bruce before she had finished with Gotham. If that was the plan than trying to get Bruce to leave with Talia or not have Bane kill him instead of putting him in the pit would have occurred. The siege of Gotham served two purposes: 1) Too show the world savagery of people, and 2) show to Bruce that everything he had done as Batman was in vain and that the people didn't believe as he did that Gotham could still be saved. Bruce returning gave Bane and Talia a chance to kill him themselves.

In the mind of LoS, the western civilization had already reached its pinnacle. That it was time to start anew. Ra's first plan was economics, to help show the greed of people and lack of sympathy towards one another. His second plan, was to release the weaponized fear toxin to show how cruel people are to one another. Finally, Talia and Banes plan was to hold siege of Gotham with the hint that they could live if the follow the rules that they had set. There plan is like the pit that Bane lived in and Talia had been born into. Brought on by the injustice of the world where money was power and power was everything. We see this through Dagget, his hunger for more money, teaming up with Bane to take control of Wayne enterprise. The defunding of the At Risk and Orphan Children foundation that directly lend teenagers and young adults into the grip of Bane.

The mob bosses and mofia crime may have been eliminated, not white collar, not random domestics violence. There was still a job shortage and people needing to find work. The part of crime that is harder to predict are crimes of passion. Things that are dictated by the environment that society creates. The need for food, financial troubles that divide families, or even the need to keep ones public reputation clean to stay in power.

The city of Gotham is symbol of the entire western culture. The solution to that is to destroy it. In BB and TDKR, they do this, with different plans, in a way to publicly show the world the need to change, to be anew. In the TDKR, Bane is the byproduct of the corrupt and injustice of the world.

[Beanjuice]

Originally Posted by The Joker

They didn't know that when they came back to Gotham. Bane only discovered the Dent cover up by accident when Gordon was brought to his lair and they found his confessional letter on him. If they knew that BEFORE they came to Gotham, then it would have made a lot more sense. There was no reason for the LOS to destroy Gotham. The city was prospering in a peace time where crime rates were so low that the Mayor was going to retire Gordon.

Greedy businessman like Daggett are everywhere all over the world. Much like how every city has some degree of crime in it like the Mayor said. I don't see the LOS targeting every city in the world. It's a pathetic reason to destroy a whole city because of that. At least Ra's in Begins was all about destroying Gotham when it was overrun with crime and corruption. I could buy into his philosophy. I couldn't take Bane's plan seriously at all. Especially after Ra's and Joker's schemes had some logic to them.

Wait...what?

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by Beanjuice

Wait...what?

When the Joker tells Harvey he's not a schemer, he's lying to him. (You might say that's the joke.)

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Beanjuice

Wait...what?

What's your confusion? Joker wanted to break Gotham's spirit. If you believed Joker when he was saying he wasn't a schemer, or not responsible for happened to Rachel etc, then pigs fly.

[ZackBop]

It was thematically important for the LOS to return for several reasons.

1. They didn't believe Gotham could be saved. Even if there is peace in Gotham, it's just a bandage. When they say Gotham is "beyond" saving, they mean it.

2. Legacy is a major theme of TDKR. Ra's al Ghul teaches Bruce how to create a legend in BB. In TDKR, he teaches Bruce how legends can achieve immortality. Ra's lives on through Talia and Bane, just as Batman will live on through the people of Gotham and Blake.

[TheHeatKitchen]

Honestly, I don't think there was a deep ideal to this plot like their was with Ras' plan.

Ras wanted to destroy the city because he felt the corruption was beyond saving. He failed.

IMO, in Talia's mind, she just wanted to finish what he father couldn't. She didn't see the same ideals that Ras had. She just saw him fail for the first time, blamed Batman for his death and simply wanted to kill Bruce Wayne, physically and emotionally, and destroy Gotham to, in HER eyes, finish her father's work. While that would finish her father's failed mission, I don't think she saw his ideals. She was doing it for the wrong reasons.

Bane was just a pawn in the end. His only motivation was a personal feeling that Bruce betrayed the LOS. And when you consider Bane was exiled, while Bruce was seen as the perfect successor to lead the LOS, Bane was simply jealous. He worked with Talia on her plan, while trying to seek revenge based on his personal jealousy of Bruce and his Ras' view of him. Ras saw Bruce as having the tools to lead the LOS, which he never saw in Bane. I think it's quite simple.

Also remember that, because of the changes in those ideals, this wasn't the same LOS. Sure it kept the name, but without Ras leading it, the philosophies and operations have changed. Compare it to Wayne Enterprises. When Tom and Martha were killed and WE was run by the board, their operations were very very different. They basically set aside everything the Wayne's stood for, and openly said it. Remember the company deciding to go public? It wasn't until Bruce bought the majority share and essentially controlled the company again that he could get his family's name back to what it was.

Change in leadership changes the entire company. The company I work for is going through that, Apple has gone through that, Disney went through it.... it happens everywhere. If you ask me, the LOS' mentality got very clouded after Ras' death and became driven by revenge and personal gain rather than ideology, even if the ideology involved mass murder.

[CaptainStacy]

Originally Posted by TheHeatKitchen

Honestly, I don't think there was a deep ideal to this plot like their was with Ras' plan.

Ras wanted to destroy the city because he felt the corruption was beyond saving. He failed.

IMO, in Talia's mind, she just wanted to finish what he father couldn't. She didn't see the same ideals that Ras had. She just saw him fail for the first time, blamed Batman for his death and simply wanted to kill Bruce Wayne, physically and emotionally, and destroy Gotham to, in HER eyes, finish her father's work. While that would finish her father's failed mission, I don't think she saw his ideals. She was doing it for the wrong reasons.

My thoughts as well.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by TheHeatKitchen

Honestly, I don't think there was a deep ideal to this plot like their was with Ras' plan.

Ras wanted to destroy the city because he felt the corruption was beyond saving. He failed.

IMO, in Talia's mind, she just wanted to finish what he father couldn't. She didn't see the same ideals that Ras had. She just saw him fail for the first time, blamed Batman for his death and simply wanted to kill Bruce Wayne, physically and emotionally, and destroy Gotham to, in HER eyes, finish her father's work. While that would finish her father's failed mission, I don't think she saw his ideals. She was doing it for the wrong reasons.

Exactly. Which makes the whole thing even more shallow.

Bane was just a pawn in the end. His only motivation was a personal feeling that Bruce betrayed the LOS. And when you consider Bane was exiled, while Bruce was seen as the perfect successor to lead the LOS, Bane was simply jealous. He worked with Talia on her plan, while trying to seek revenge based on his personal jealousy of Bruce and his Ras' view of him.

Owtch!

That makes Bane sound really pathetic!

[TheHeatKitchen]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Exactly. Which makes the whole thing even more shallow.



Owtch!

That makes Bane sound really pathetic!

Wow, it's like you jumped into my head and saw what I was thinking while I was writing that. It was really shallow and Bane, while a dominant physical threat and diabolical speaker, was a HIGHLY overrated villain. People comparing him to Darth Vader and even putting him the same sentence with Heath Ledger's Joker is, well... a joke.

Both of those aspects just add to why I think TDKR was "good" but easily the weakest of the three films. And while I didn't agree with bringing back the LOS, they could have made it great, but they left a lot on the table and made some terrible decisions.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by TheHeatKitchen

Wow, it's like you jumped into my head and saw what I was thinking while I was writing that. It was really shallow and Bane, while a dominant physical threat and diabolical speaker, was a HIGHLY overrated villain. People comparing him to Darth Vader and even putting him the same sentence with Heath Ledger's Joker is, well... a joke.

Agreed. Shackling him to Talia and the LOS, especially after Ra's kicked him out of the LOS, and here he was trying to fulfill the work of man who couldn't stand the sight of him, really weakened the character, IMO. It seemed obvious to me he was doing it purely out of devotion to Talia. Just like how he put his life on the line to protect her in the pit when she was a child. Here he was again willing to die just so she can honor her father's work. It's easy to see why he's so often accused of being a sub servant to Talia.

Both of those aspects just add to why I think TDKR was "good" but easily the weakest of the three films. And while I didn't agree with bringing back the LOS, they could have made it great, but they left a lot on the table and made some terrible decisions.

Now you're in my head peeking at my thoughts

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by TheHeatKitchen

Both of those aspects just add to why I think TDKR was "good" but easily the weakest of the three films. And while I didn't agree with bringing back the LOS, they could have made it great, but they left a lot on the table and made some terrible decisions.

Quoted for truth. I was really against them bringing back the LOS, but I think it might have been cool if the League had become a "New" League. One that now served Bane's desires rathen then Ras' philosophy.

[BatLobsterRises]

I think it's pretty interesting that apparently the one thing Nolan knew about how he wanted to finish the story was bringing back the LOS, before they had even had decided on a villain.

“Moving on to Dark Knight Rises, I knew that the League of Shadows had to come back,” he says of the secret society of assassins led by Liam Neeson’s Ra’s Al Ghul, the violent Darwinist who recruited Bruce Wayne and taught him the tricks of the stealth-warrior trade in the first film. “I knew that we had to return to Batman Begins and those philosophical ideas of Ra’s Al Ghul, those challenges -- that all had to come back.

Source- http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/new...stopher-406444

This seems to lend more credibility to the rumors that Nolan took a hard stance against Justice League: Mortal partially because it featured Talia coming back to avenge her father, and he wanted to be able to revisit that storyline if he made a third film. Pure speculation, but it's interesting. If there's anything out there that could prove TDKR wasn't some alternative movie that they had to think up because they couldn't use The Joker, confirmation that Nolan had the idea of bringing back the LOS all along could be it.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Owtch!

That makes Bane sound really pathetic!

Then all villains who are jealous of the hero are pathetic as well?

[Hawkeye70000000]

I wouldn't call bane pathetic for attacking Gotham and Bruce in the name of Ra's goal. if you look at through a competitive perspective; Ra's saved bane from the pit and then followed him and trained with him. When Bruce came into to the fold and Ra's thought he would secede him as head of LoS and attack on Gotham. Bane wanted to show Bruce that he was better than Bruce, more deserving of the LoS. It's like to two people who make tablets or phones and sells them. They compete against each other to show who is can produce the best device. It isn't pathetic, it is competition that produces better products or better soldier.

[herolee10]

In my opinion, they missed a real chance in using something like the "Dent Act" to really milk out on what could really have been wrong with Gotham during those 8 years.

If BB showed a Gotham that was controlled by the mafia/criminals, then imagine on what they could have done with TDKR if they showed Gotham being ruled with a iron fist by the government; where due to the intense violence in the past, the system went extreme due to how they felt was the best way to prevent from crime going up like it once did, thus losing sight of what it stood for in the past, just like Bruce did with his crusade. It would have been a good parallel.