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Old 01-31-2013, 11:38 PM   #1
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 1

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Old 01-31-2013, 11:38 PM   #2
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:38 PM   #3
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 1

I would think losing the trunks would improve "balance" if anything. Now there's an expanse of blue, and an expanse of red, highlighted by the shield and the red boots.

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Old 01-31-2013, 11:48 PM   #4
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 1

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I would think losing the trunks would improve "balance" if anything. Now there's an expanse of blue, and an expanse of red, highlighted by the shield and the red boots.
It's more like an expanse of red, huge expanse of blue and another expanse of red. That arrangement of the color spaces to my eyes is imbalanced, like I said, you don't need the trunks but if ya leave them out, I'd say get rid of the red boots too then the color elements are balanced again, imho.

Another way to balance the color distribution would be to add red gloves to the costume like here, that's a balanced design too.



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Old 02-01-2013, 12:10 AM   #5
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 1

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It's more like an expanse of red, huge expanse of blue and another expanse of red. That arrangement of the color spaces to my eyes is imbalanced, like I said, you don't need the trunks but if ya leave them out, I'd say get rid of the red boots too then the color elements are balanced again, imho.
Well, the way you've described it, the MOS suit goes (from top to bottom) red, blue, red. That's sounds balanced to me seeing as as the red "bookends" it, if you will.

Also, I'm not sure how a "top heavy" Eradicator suit is considered balanced if its heavy on one side.

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Old 02-01-2013, 12:08 AM   #6
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

Then it would look like he's wearing feetie pajamas. It's not really that huge an expanse of blue, because there's the red and yellow S-shield on his chest that draws the eye. The red cape being big enough to drape behind the whole thing kind of inherently balances it all out. It's a constant visual presence behind the blue.

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Old 02-01-2013, 12:28 PM   #7
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Then it would look like he's wearing feetie pajamas. It's not really that huge an expanse of blue, because there's the red and yellow S-shield on his chest that draws the eye. The red cape being big enough to drape behind the whole thing kind of inherently balances it all out. It's a constant visual presence behind the blue.
Agreed, that's why I would have replaced the red boots with a variation of the silver blue piping design. To me the red boots pull the eye away from the shield and if you eliminate them the only eye catcher so to speak is the Shield. With the red boots it looks to me a little bit like a nude guy wearing a pair of boots. ^^;


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Old 02-01-2013, 12:36 PM   #8
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Agreed, that's why I would have replaced the red boots with a variation of the silver blue piping design. To me the red boots pull the eye away from the shield and if you eliminate them the only eye catcher so to speak is the Shield. With the red boots it looks to me a little bit like a nude guy wearing a pair of boots. ^^;
Well if the boots are distracting you from the shield and they are 4-5 feet away, how do the trunks not become more distracting when they are half the distance?

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Old 02-01-2013, 01:30 PM   #9
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Well if the boots are distracting you from the shield and they are 4-5 feet away, how do the trunks not become more distracting when they are half the distance?
That's actually a good question, I can't say 100% but it might be that with the trunks (ore red around the abdomen) the red areas to me seem more evenly distributed across the board so it becomes more of a pattern. The red doesn't seem as much an eye draw on the classic suit while on the MOS the patches of red stand out much more from all that blue. That's why the red boots irk me visually. You got the red on his symbol that makes it pop and then you got the red boots which equally stand out but which are just empty, symbolically speaking and completely unimportant. Like I said it reminds me a bit of a nude cowboy just wearing his boots. ^^;

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Old 02-01-2013, 01:33 PM   #10
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

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That's actually a good question, I can't say 100% but it might be that with the trunks (ore red around the abdomen) the red areas to me seem more evenly distributed across the board so it becomes more of a pattern. The red doesn't seem as much an eye draw on the classic suit while on the MOS the patches of red stand out much more from all that blue. That's why the red boots irk me visually. You got the red on his symbol that makes it pop and then you got the red boots which equally stand out but which are just empty, symbolically speaking and completely unimportant. Like I said it reminds me a bit of a nude cowboy just wearing his boots. ^^;
That pattern idea makes sense. I still find my eye drawn to the trunks (in comparison to MOS), but I can see how others aren't bothered by it.

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Old 02-01-2013, 12:40 PM   #11
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

From the previous thread…
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Originally Posted by StarvingArtist
Here's the bottom line: People's misgivings about the trunks, or even the cape, the boots, or whatever....all of these issues have a common origin. That origin is very simply that Superman was conceived without compelling reasoning behind the suit. It was meant to be appreciated more on a symbolic level rather then a literal one, similar to Uncle Sam in many ways. However, the appeal of brands that draw their allure from symbolism tend to be very subjective because ultimately there in many cases is no literal real world underlying reasoning for the specifics of the aesthetic. It just kind of "is what it is." Superman was meant to be a colorful catharsis representing the unlimited potential for good and heroism in humanity. Who cares where he got the suit?
As far as I know, not even the revisionists are suggesting truly radical revisionism (e.g., Superman in a track suit - because, hey, that’s way more realistic than ye olde tights and cape.) I think most folks (the general public, as well as fans) accept the “symbolism” and the genre convention of the (super)hero donning some manner of distinct and outré uniform. Moreover, and notwithstanding modernization, there’s almost always some allegiance to tradition. E.g., Burton’s “new” Batman costume still retains the cape, the eared cowl, etc. Ditto for Thor, CA, Green Arrow, etc. And while there will always be debates about where the right “tradition/modern” balance is, most seem to accept that a balance - of some kind - is necessary.

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This poses interesting problems 70 years later. Superman's power as a symbol has waned over the years, and lots of other heroes, while owing their existence to Superman, still are honestly better conceived and more creative. Such is the territory that comes with building upon and refining an original idea. The ideas behind a lot of the newer heroes make more sense in a real world context. We love these characters and want them to exist so badly that we've made them uber-realistic. Regardless though, Superman still appeals to people and imprints like a hot brand on young kids. Children don't give a crap that he wears his underwear on the outside. And when they grow up, they seem to generally fall into 1 of 3 categories: a.) they grow out of comics altogether, b.) they continue to love superman as they first saw him, or c.) having become conscious of social trends, other interests, and education begin having a tough time taking the character seriously and become critical of him, demanding he evolve with them so that they can hang onto their appreciation.
I still go back to this foundational principle: Superman was conceived as a dashing, romantic, “cool” hero. S&S weren’t going for laughs or doing satire; in their minds, the classic Supes costume was supposed to be impressive, imposing and worthy of a larger-than-life champion. In other words, the costume is merely a representation or symbol for a larger concept. So if, over the course of time, some elements of the costume (e.g., the trunks) become (for whatever reason) stigmatized, you alter them - because the first duty is to the concept and not the superficial details.


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Old 02-01-2013, 01:04 PM   #12
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

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I still go back to this foundational principle: Superman was conceived as a dashing, romantic, “cool” hero. S&S weren’t going for laughs or doing satire; in their minds, the classic Supes costume was supposed to be impressive, imposing and worthy of a larger-than-life champion. In other words, the costume is merely a representation or symbol for a larger concept. So if, over the course of time, some elements of the costume (e.g., the trunks) become (for whatever reason) stigmatized, you alter them - because the first duty is to the concept and not the superficial details.
That's a very cerebral yet accurate way at looking at changes in comics characters as a whole, but is there still really a need to eliminate the trunks as this no trunks debate never really picked up steam until Cavill's suit debuted/the new 52 BS happened? Granted, no trunks may be better for the design they went with but not overall. I mean if Superman suddenly had a pompadour how many people would like the idea?

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Old 02-01-2013, 01:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

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That's a very cerebral yet accurate way at looking at changes in comics characters as a whole, but is there still really a need to eliminate the trunks as this no trunks debate never really picked up steam until Cavill's suit debuted/the new 52 BS happened? Granted, no trunks may be better for the design they went with but not overall. I mean if Superman suddenly had a pompadour how many people would like the idea?
People have been calling for Superman to lose the trunks way before he actually did. I was not one of them, but I'm glad we got the suit we did for Man of Steel....I hate the New 52 suit. No thanks to that pos

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Old 02-01-2013, 03:24 PM   #14
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

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From the previous thread…


As far as I know, not even the revisionists are suggesting truly radical revisionism (e.g., Superman in a track suit - because, hey, that’s way more realistic than ye olde tights and cape.) I think most folks (the general public, as well as fans) accept the “symbolism” and the genre convention of the (super)hero donning some manner of distinct and outré uniform. Moreover, and notwithstanding modernization, there’s almost always some allegiance to tradition. E.g., Burton’s “new” Batman costume still retains the cape, the eared cowl, etc. Ditto for Thor, CA, Green Arrow, etc. And while there will always be debates about where the right “tradition/modern” balance is, most seem to accept that a balance - of some kind - is necessary.

I still go back to this foundational principle: Superman was conceived as a dashing, romantic, “cool” hero. S&S weren’t going for laughs or doing satire; in their minds, the classic Supes costume was supposed to be impressive, imposing and worthy of a larger-than-life champion. In other words, the costume is merely a representation or symbol for a larger concept. So if, over the course of time, some elements of the costume (e.g., the trunks) become (for whatever reason) stigmatized, you alter them - because the first duty is to the concept and not the superficial details.
The point I'm trying to make is that it's much harder to quantify good/clever/cool changes to a costume that was designed more for symbolism rather then function. The rubric for such judgements is far more subjective. For a suit that has a given purpose or function like Batman's, you can more easily judge cool changes to the suit because you can measure them against the suit's purpose. This I think is the essence of modernity in superhero costumes. The general audience puts a premium on reasoning behind everything, or at least the illusion of reasoning behind everything.

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Old 02-02-2013, 08:09 AM   #15
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

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The point I'm trying to make is that it's much harder to quantify good/clever/cool changes to a costume that was designed more for symbolism rather then function. The rubric for such judgements is far more subjective. For a suit that has a given purpose or function like Batman's, you can more easily judge cool changes to the suit because you can measure them against the suit's purpose. This I think is the essence of modernity in superhero costumes. The general audience puts a premium on reasoning behind everything, or at least the illusion of reasoning behind everything.
Of course, tastes will always be subjective and individually valid. But we can (and do) give weight to consensus - a kind of (provisional) “objectivity.”

So for instance… while you can’t call my love for disco leisure suits wrong, you can say that I’m out of step with consensus. And you can legitimately advise that if I dressed my cool hero in a disco leisure suit, I likely wouldn’t get a favorable reaction from audiences.

By the same token… (and this is entirely hypothetical ) if a majority of people think of the red trunks as passé, the object of ridicule or otherwise distracting, then this is a fact about popular opinion.

So what to do? One option is to just ignore consensus - decide that tradition is more important than popularity. The other is to adapt and evolve (in order to preserve the original, underlying “meaning” that I alluded to earlier).

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Old 02-01-2013, 12:16 AM   #16
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

How about we try this a different way.

Break the suit all the way down to just the color distribution:


Left is classic, right is MOS. Discuss.

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Old 02-01-2013, 12:18 AM   #17
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

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How about we try this a different way.

Break the suit all the way down to just the color distribution:


Left is classic, right is MOS. Discuss.
Well technically speaking, there are some form of yellow thin lines for the MOS suit.lol

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Old 02-01-2013, 12:21 AM   #18
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

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Well technically speaking, there are some form of yellow thin lines for the MOS suit.lol
True:


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Old 02-01-2013, 12:48 AM   #19
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

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True:

Excellent simplistic breakdown. I think it demonstrates that, while the MOS does look quite nice when broken down to its core-most elements, the classic suit has that intangible quality that makes it an instant classic. It's similar to what Mark Millar was saying in reference to Superman art and actors: sometimes you can just tell when an artist draws Superman properly (Curt Swan, Jose Luis Garcia Lopez, John Byrne in his prime) it freaking looks like Superman, and when one doesn't it's very obvious. "It’s just an X-factor or an understanding of the character," he says.

Cavill happens to epitomize that philosophy in a way no actor genuinely has since Routh. During his off days he looks like Superman. It's the same for the costume. The MOS one is good...but the classic is, simply, Superman.

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Old 02-01-2013, 07:10 AM   #20
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

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Excellent simplistic breakdown. I think it demonstrates that, while the MOS does look quite nice when broken down to its core-most elements, the classic suit has that intangible quality that makes it an instant classic. It's similar to what Mark Millar was saying in reference to Superman art and actors: sometimes you can just tell when an artist draws Superman properly (Curt Swan, Jose Luis Garcia Lopez, John Byrne in his prime) it freaking looks like Superman, and when one doesn't it's very obvious. "It’s just an X-factor or an understanding of the character," he says.

Cavill happens to epitomize that philosophy in a way no actor genuinely has since Routh. During his off days he looks like Superman. It's the same for the costume. The MOS one is good...but the classic is, simply, Superman.
Sorry, but I don't find that argument to be valid at all.

Of course, the classic suit looks like Superman because it's the exact suit the was created for him. That is far from being as impressive as Cavill embodying a fictional character because he wasn't created to look like Superman.

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Old 02-01-2013, 01:04 AM   #21
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

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True:

This is why I wanted to know what people meant by balanced. Looking at it this way misses something important about fashion: how it applies to the body. Having the briefs isn't really about "balance". Is a plaid shirt and solid pants "balanced"? You dont need balance for an outfit to look right. In fact, trying to balance things can mess up a look.

The only defenses for the red briefs I buy is if the costume is supposed to be flashy and over the top or for nostalgia's sake. It has nothing to do with balance nor is balance necessary.

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Old 02-01-2013, 07:06 AM   #22
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

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True:

The biggest thing for me is that with the MOS suit, my eye goes directly to the shield area. That's not the case for the classic -- my eye is distracted.

For that reason, I think the design of the MOS works and works a little better. I mean what is more Superman than the shield?


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Old 02-01-2013, 07:49 AM   #23
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

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Like so?

Like so! This is perfect, imo. It "breaks up the blue" (for which I didn't see necessary) and stays away from giving him trunks (for which stylistically and modernly aren't necessary).

So for those who feel there needs to be a break up, this is more than sufficient. And if those people can't be satisfied with this, then it's nothing more than a fan missing the trunks themselves.

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The biggest thing for me is that with the MOS suit, my eye goes directly to the shield area. That's not the case for the classic -- my eye is distracted.

For that reason, I think the design of the MOS works and works a little better. I mean what is more Superman than the shield?
I couldn't agree more. My eyes actually went to trunks with the classic. Were as with the MOS suit I went straight for the shield. From there I went to the red in the cape and boots. I love the classic Superman, don't misinterpret, but I also see the beauty in the New suit and find that it just makes more sense.

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Old 02-01-2013, 12:20 AM   #24
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

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How about we try this a different way.

Break the suit all the way down to just the color distribution:


Left is classic, right is MOS. Discuss.
The guy on the left has a mustache.

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Old 02-01-2013, 12:23 AM   #25
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Default Re: It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 2

Either or for me please....

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