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Old 04-18-2013, 10:42 AM   #1
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 8

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Old 04-18-2013, 10:42 AM   #2
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 7

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Old 04-18-2013, 10:42 AM   #3
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 8

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I think WW could be great 80/100 for The Flash.
If Nolan's ways are used lol

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Old 04-18-2013, 10:45 AM   #4
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 9

I'm just making sure, after seeing the Man of Steel trailer I think it's clear Zack Snyder is going to direct Justice League. Agree?

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Old 04-18-2013, 10:47 AM   #5
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 9

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I'm just making sure, after seeing the Man of Steel trailer I think it's clear Zack Snyder is going to direct Justice League. Agree?
With Goyer writing and Nolan Producing.

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Old 04-18-2013, 10:49 AM   #6
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With Goyer writing and Nolan Producing.
Meh on Goyer writing. If Jonathan Nolan or Chris is helping him I'm cool. I think Goyer is ok but his best work comes from when he has someone with him like Nolan.

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Old 04-18-2013, 10:51 AM   #7
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 9

Just thought I'd share this:

http://insidemovies.ew.com/2013/04/1...new-trailer/3/

It seems that Goyer and co will already be hinting at this ancient alien idea with this film (MoS). Food for thought for a potential JL or even WF.

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Old 04-18-2013, 11:01 AM   #8
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 9

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Just thought I'd share this:

http://insidemovies.ew.com/2013/04/1...new-trailer/3/

It seems that Goyer and co will already be hinting at this ancient alien idea with this film (MoS). Food for thought for a potential JL or even WF.
Darkseid I hope

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Old 04-18-2013, 10:45 AM   #9
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These cycles are getting shorter and shorter. We had what, 16 years with RotJ and TPM from 83' to 99'. Indy 4, which was just a sequel, 19 years later. 8 years from BnR to BB. 5 years for the Hulk and Spidey reboots. I don't think it is sustainable.

The studios have to buy time if they really want to maximize profits. I think 2015 is too soon for Star Wars, but they plan on bringing back the original cast in more than cameo appearances. In that regard, I can forgive it. Right now, I don't touch Batman until after the Superman trilogy, UNLESS they had a story with Bale. I just think you are cutting it too close and audiences will get the "same old" feeling. You want the next set of movies to be watched by the children of predecessors within the audience. If you target the same generation, there is no way you can come close to recouping that box office haul from the previous set of films.

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Old 04-18-2013, 11:06 AM   #10
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 9

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These cycles are getting shorter and shorter. We had what, 16 years with RotJ and TPM from 83' to 99'. Indy 4, which was just a sequel, 19 years later. 8 years from BnR to BB. 5 years for the Hulk and Spidey reboots. I don't think it is sustainable.

The studios have to buy time if they really want to maximize profits. I think 2015 is too soon for Star Wars, but they plan on bringing back the original cast in more than cameo appearances. In that regard, I can forgive it. Right now, I don't touch Batman until after the Superman trilogy, UNLESS they had a story with Bale. I just think you are cutting it too close and audiences will get the "same old" feeling. You want the next set of movies to be watched by the children of predecessors within the audience. If you target the same generation, there is no way you can come close to recouping that box office haul from the previous set of films.
Absolutely man. I agree 100 %.

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Just thought I'd share this:

http://insidemovies.ew.com/2013/04/17/man-of-steel-mysteries-new-trailer/3/

It seems that Goyer and co will already be hinting at this ancient alien idea with this film (MoS). Food for thought for a potential JL or even WF.

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Old 04-18-2013, 11:07 AM   #11
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 9

Why sacrifice a rebooted Batman in a shared universe, and go for a Batman that the director is saying
"He doesn't work in a shared superhero universe"?

Nolan has stated his Batman shouldn't be in a shared universe. He believes it. He doesn't mind other directors ignoring his sentiments that heroes should be confined to their own unique settings. He's only producing somebody else's vision.

He doesn't want his vision and belief tampered with.

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Old 04-18-2013, 11:16 AM   #12
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 9

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Why sacrifice a rebooted Batman in a shared universe, and go for a Batman that the director is saying
"He doesn't work in a shared superhero universe"?

Nolan has stated his Batman shouldn't be in a shared universe. He believes it. He doesn't mind other directors ignoring his sentiments that heroes should be confined to their own unique settings. He's only producing somebody else's vision.

He doesn't want his vision and belief tampered with.
Nolan and Snyder said the same exact thing about Superman, and now they're playing a completely different tune. Trust me when I say that if all right the cards fall in place, Nolan will come around on Batman as well. It all depends on the story and its execution. Hook Nolan on the story, and you got yourself a deal.

I think the reason why we're hearing Nolan being hesitant about all of this is because of Interstellar. El mayimbe and others are assuming that he doesn't want his trilogy tampered with - I actually don't buy that (although there may be some truth to it). Nolan is completely focused on Interstellar right now, and he probably doesn't even want to consider thinking about getting involved with JL until that film is out of the way.

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Old 04-18-2013, 11:11 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Shikamaru,
You're putting so much emphasis on the potential of the Nolanverse Batman that you completely forget about the potential of comic book Batman that far outclasses it. CAN you somehow make a JL movie with Nolan's Batman that doesn't suck total monkey diarrhea? Probably. But this is what you're forgetting: You have 2 options for Batman in the shared universe. The first is to use Nolan's Batman and the second is to use a rebooted Batman that is more like the one in the comics AKA one that fits better with the JL and is actually the world's greatest detective, a genius, etc. Those are your only two options. Maybe both have some level of potential but which one has MORE potential? Are you trying to argue that Nolan's Batman has more potential for JL than comic book Batman? If you are, I find that disrespectful to the Batman character, the comics, the writers that worked on them over the years, and overall to the essence of Batman.
How is that disrespectful to the Batman mythos? The only thing WB has made clear so far with their DC movie plans is that they intend to continue with the grounded approach of TDKT and MoS. To reboot Batman, in order to satisfy comic book purists (which I consider myself to be), would be completely pointless, and it would simply be a retread of Nolan's take. There is no need for a more fantastical Batman in a grounded JL (you're assuming that JL is going to be more fantastical, it most likely will not be), and I bet you money that audiences will not be receptive to a new Batman unless a considerable amount of time has passed. I would say 7 years at the minimum. If JL comes within the next 5 years, people are going to want to see Bale as Batman, not someone else. It's too soon for a reboot.

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Do I think Bale's Batman wouldn't do anything if there was an alien invasion? To be honest with you, yes. I believe he wouldn't do anything. I don't want to start another TDKR debate in this thread but Bruce in TDKR has become the exact opposite of the Bruce in the comics. A man more dedicated to his work than any other superhero created has been turned by Chris Nolan into one that quits and gets over his Batman persona. Whatever happens after TDKR, whether it's with Bruce or Blake, is NOT Batman and I am not interested in seeing Quitterman or Blakeman in JL as substitutes for Batman and standing next to Superman and the rest.
Let's agree to disagree on this one.

Quote:
Whether or not Nolan's Batman would do something in spite of an alien attack is irrelevant to begin with because he is not a Batman that can hold his own against such a threat. This Batman is not the world's greatest detective or anywhere close to the strategist/mastermind he is in things like the comics, Batman TAS, and the Arkham games. Having Bruce as the strategist/mastermind is exactly why Batman needs to be rebooted.
Training is nothing, the will is everything. The Batman of TDKT, when he can muster the will, can accomplish anything he puts his mind to.

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You also realize that once you put a 40 year old Batman in a team full of people in their 20's, his entire dynamic with them changes, right? Especially his dynamic with Superman. They would no longer be like brothers to each other because Batman would be almost old enough to be Superman's dad. So not only is there no proper Batman past TDKR but an age gap like that also alters a major part of the dynamics between the team
You're making way too many assumptions about what the rest of the team will be like. If MoS is any indication, the other DC characters will also undergo changes to fit in this new, realistic take. You make it sound like Bruce is an old fart - he is not. 40 is not old, especially in today's day and age.

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One thing you all seem to forget is that whether or not you believe there is a story to tell after TDKR, Nolan does not. He has went on record multiple times to say that his Batman exists in an isolated world with no other superheroes present and that he believes Batman & Superman shouldn't exist in the same world to begin with. Whether or not you believe you can continue the story (and whether or not WB decides to continue the story), you are already going against Nolan's wishes.
Nolan has changed his mind before, and he can change it again. The man is human, after all. As shauner said, he works one film at a time.

And I am positive that if his brother or Goyer pitched him a good story that works, he would definitely come on board. Nolan is a story oriented director first and foremost, and if you convince him that the story is worth it, then why not?

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You need to think long term as opposed to short term. Suppose that you integrate the Nolanverse in the shared universe and you do your JL film. What do you do after that? Superman and the rest will continue to have ongoing movies featuring their greatest villains, supporting characters, and stories while Bruce as Batman will only be able to appear in the JL films since he can't go back to Gotham and continue being Batman there. The only way to continue stories with Batman in Gotham is with Blake and I guarantee you those won't be anywhere as successful as great Batman movies with Bruce Wayne. It might seem like a good decision NOW but in the long run, a reboot is a better decision because you can continue the Batman franchise outside of just JL.
I AM thinking long term. WB seems intent on getting JL out within the next few years. MoS will initiate the shared universe, and who is involved? The very same creative elements that gave this generation its Batman. You have Goyer, Zimmer, and both Nolans. By not connecting MoS to the Nolan trilogy, you're bringing about a sense of creative disjointedness. There are too many connections in place for this not to happen, and in addition to all the others reasons I've stated countless times, rebooting Batman with such similar creative elements would be A WASTE OF TIME. And I am confidant that WB knows this.

We don't need more solo-Bat movies, and the audiences sure as hell won't need them for many years. The market is oversaturated with superhero films as it is, and team up movies seem to be the new big thing now, which WB is trying to capitalize on.

The Nolan films were very successful in part because they spoke to contemporary society's concerns; those films had something to say. And it seems that MoS will potentially make that same connection with audiences. What will a rebooted Batman do? What's the point of rebooting if there is nothing new to say or contribute? If you ask me, there is no point, and I'm standing by that. You are more than free to feel differently.


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Old 04-18-2013, 02:43 PM   #14
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 9

Wow. SO many things to respond to. Prepare for a set of long essays, people.

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How is that disrespectful to the Batman mythos?
You trying to argue that Nolan's Batman has more story potential than comic book Batman is disrespectful to the mythos.

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The only thing WB has made clear so far with their DC movie plans is that they intend to continue with the grounded approach of TDKT and MoS. To reboot Batman, in order to satisfy comic book purists (which I consider myself to be), would be completely pointless, and it would simply be a retread of Nolan's take. There is no need for a more fantastical Batman in a grounded JL (you're assuming that JL is going to be more fantastical, it most likely will not be), and I bet you money that audiences will not be receptive to a new Batman unless a considerable amount of time has passed. I would say 7 years at the minimum. If JL comes within the next 5 years, people are going to want to see Bale as Batman, not someone else. It's too soon for a reboot.
Except that MOS is nowhere as grounded as TDKT was. "Grounded" is completely subjective. What Nolan considers grounded is different from what Marc Webb, Snyder, or Joss Whedon would consider grounded.

MOS does not look or feel like TDKT at all. It is a different type of grounded. It looks like a mixed bag of everything. It seems to have the maturity and complexity of the Nolan films with the heart of Iron Man & Donner's Superman with the fun action feel of The Avengers. Even the way they were filmed is completely different. Nolan was all about making everything look like the real world, not a lot of CGI, and certain camera angles while there MOS does look stylized. We know Zack Snyder added CGI buildings in Metropolis that don't actually exist in real life whereas Nolan's Gotham was literally Chicago.

Thus they're 2 different types of "grounded" approaches. MOS is grounded in the sense of how the characters act and how the world around Superman reacts but you can STILL have your Superman, aliens, GL corp, unique looking Metropolis, and the rest of the DCU in this universe. You are not limited outside of things all movies can't done. TDKT was grounded in the sense that they took characters from the comics and convinced them that they could exist in real world, going as far as to even remove Bane's Venom and Ra's immortality to achieve that (not saying this was bad). Thus the defense that MOS and JL will be like TDKT so they shouldn't reboot Batman is false. With that said, you can still have a Batman reboot in line with MOS that is unique. It can still keep the maturity and complexity of the Nolan films while not being limited to anything (Clayface, Mr Freeze, having Batman be world's greatest detective, etc.). Do a "grounded" Batman going by MOS' definition of grounded, not TDKT's definition of grounded, and you won't get a rehash.

Audience won't be receptive to a new Batman? I highly disagree. History proves you wrong. The difference between Batman and Spider-Man is that prior to the Spider-Man reboot, a new version of Spidey with a new actor was something the GA hasn't seen before. Raimi's version was the only version of Spidey that made it big prior to TASM. EVERY single generation so far has had to adapt to the idea of a new version of Batman/new actor playing Batman within a short difference of time. It is not anything new for Batman. He has had multiple different versions that made it mainstream including the Arkham games which were popular simultaneously with the Nolan films. Batman is not defined by the Nolan films. I would say Batman is in fact the first superhero that has reached Bond status (meaning it won't be a problem). If Bond can have like a different actor/take every 5 years, Batman will be fine as long as the reboot still keeps the dark serious tone and smart storytelling of the Nolan films.

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Let's agree to disagree on this one.
Very well.

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Training is nothing, the will is everything. The Batman of TDKT, when he can muster the will, can accomplish anything he puts his mind to.
Training is everything. You need the will to get the training though but it is far too late for Bruce to get that because 1) he is happily retired AKA his will is gone and 2) his body is broken and if he wasn't able to become the world's greatest detective for the 7 years he traveled and then the 8 years retired, it is absolutely pointless by now and will just be a stupid plot contrivance to make Batman smart for JL. "Oh BTW I just happen to be comic book Batman now!"

Quote:
You're making way too many assumptions about what the rest of the team will be like. If MoS is any indication, the other DC characters will also undergo changes to fit in this new, realistic take. You make it sound like Bruce is an old fart - he is not. 40 is not old, especially in today's day and age.
I already explained why MOS is clearly not the same as TDKT. See above paragraphs.

40 is not old but it is old in comparison with Superman who is in his late 20's. His relationship with Superman changes from a brother/brother relationship (close in age) to a father/son relationship or a much older brother/much younger brother relationship. Plus, Nolan's Batman has over 10 years of experience on top of Superman. That would already make Batman look like a mentor as opposed to a equal partner to Superman. Another thing interesting about their dynamic is that they started out around the same time and grew into the people they are now simultaneously. The grew together despite being completely different. That element would also be gone.

Quote:
Nolan has changed his mind before, and he can change it again. The man is human, after all. As shauner said, he works one film at a time.

And I am positive that if his brother or Goyer pitched him a good story that works, he would definitely come on board. Nolan is a story oriented director first and foremost, and if you convince him that the story is worth it, then why not?
Nolan has consistently been against his Batman in a shared universe since 2005. He went as far as to interfere with the production of the last JL film (Justice League: Mortal) when he found out it had his Batman in it even though he wasn't even played by Bale and looked like a different Batman visually. The chances of Nolan being ok with his Batman used in JL are extremely low. You guys are literally praying for a miracle to happen that would make Nolan change his mind. That is what it has become. You are trying to convince yourself so hard that he may change his mind that it has become a false sense of hope for you guys. I agree with JMC that it is getting pathetic.

Quote:
I AM thinking long term. WB seems intent on getting JL out within the next few years. MoS will initiate the shared universe, and who is involved? The very same creative elements that gave this generation its Batman. You have Goyer, Zimmer, and both Nolans. By not connecting MoS to the Nolan trilogy, you're bringing about a sense of creative disjointedness. There are too many connections in place for this not to happen, and in addition to all the others reasons I've stated countless times, rebooting Batman with such similar creative elements would be A WASTE OF TIME. And I am confidant that WB knows this.
You can still get out JL within the next few years. Reboot Batman for 2016 and then have JL in 2017. It took Marvel 5 years to from Iron Man to The Avengers.

This is not the work of the Nolans; it is mainly the work of Snyder. Nolan himself has said this multiple times and that it is mainly Snyder's movie. He even said that Snyder and one of the writers from 300 did a few changes to the script. Goyer is still there, that's true, but he doesn't count because he is a writer for superhero stories in general. He wrote a story for the Nolan films that fit into Chris Nolan's vision and now he is writing a story for MOS that is meant to fit into a shared universe.

Also, I never thought I would say this but for once I am confident WB knows better than some of the fans by rebooting.

Quote:
We don't need more solo-Bat movies, and the audiences sure as hell won't need them for many years. The market is oversaturated with superhero films as it is, and team up movies seem to be the new big thing now, which WB is trying to capitalize on.
You underestimate Batman's iconic status to the GA. Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man have far transcended the superhero genre at this point. They are equally as iconic as characters like James Bond, Sherlock Holmes, and Mickey Mouse (maybe even a bit more iconic). They may come a time when the GA grows tired of superhero movies but these 3 characters have become so iconic that they will live on. The superhero genre no longer solely defines them. You may have a time when the GA grows tired of a specific version of these characters but they'll never grow tired of Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man in general.

Quote:
The Nolan films were very successful in part because they spoke to contemporary society's concerns; those films had something to say. And it seems that MoS will potentially make that same connection with audiences. What will a rebooted Batman do? What's the point of rebooting if there is nothing new to say or contribute? If you ask me, there is no point, and I'm standing by that. You are more than free to feel differently.
I just love how you seem to think that the Nolan films speaking to contemporary society's concerns is something new that Nolan integrated into Batman that now it made him cool. It isn't. That has been the norm in Batman comics since the 1980's. A lot of Batman stories are a lot heavier and deeper with those messages than any of the Nolan films.

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Old 04-18-2013, 11:21 AM   #15
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 9

Well until the day WB confirms they don't want anymore solo Batman films, which is still the opposite at this point, I'm not sure.

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Old 04-18-2013, 11:54 AM   #16
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 9

I tend to doubt Nolan will come around on JLA as far as it connecting to TDK triligy. That said , I think his idea of MOS being its own universe, isolated from the exisistance of other heroes is a non-starter for WB . It looks like they're willing to respect Nolan's standpoint on TDK films , but as far as MOS, no so much.

I think as far as WB is concerned ,that film will open the door to a wider DCU on film regardless of whatever the original intention was with making MOS. If Campa's source's info comes to fruitition , that's a sign to me that WB is saying "We want this project done, Nolan or not . Full steam ahead". This project has more lives than Freddy Kruger.

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Old 04-18-2013, 11:42 AM   #17
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I think Eradicator and shuaner111 have won me over. I wouldn't want it to come at the expense of the MOS franchise, but if they are absolutely intent on building towards JL... I think I'm in favor now of tying in the Nolanverse. You guys make some pretty good points. You've converted me.

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Old 04-18-2013, 12:00 PM   #18
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I don't think TDK Trilogy should be tied.

First off no more Joker. You just can't have another actor be Heaths Joker. That was Heath's Joker. He made that role is own.

Second off no fantasy villains. The way Nolan set this up has no fantasy villains. Villains like Mr Freeze, Croc, Clayface, Ivy and others can't work.

Third no more Two-Face. He died in TDK you can't bring him back.

Fourth no more Ra's. The Lazarus Pit doesn't exist.

Fifth no Dick Grayson.

Sixth the ending of TDKR. You can't change that. You can't have Bruce come back.

Seventh the Wayne Manor is full of kids.

Eighth Wayne has no money. He gave it all away.

Ninth, no one wants John Blake.

Tenth people want a Batman more like the Arkham games. If you can do that then it can work and people will love it.

Eleventh, Batman's sacrifice for Gotham doesn't seem as epic.

Twelve, Batman had trouble fighting dogs so you really expect for him to take on Darkseid?

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Old 04-18-2013, 01:08 PM   #19
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 9

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I don't think TDK Trilogy should be tied.

First off no more Joker. You just can't have another actor be Heaths Joker. That was Heath's Joker. He made that role is own.

Second off no fantasy villains. The way Nolan set this up has no fantasy villains. Villains like Mr Freeze, Croc, Clayface, Ivy and others can't work.

Third no more Two-Face. He died in TDK you can't bring him back.

Fourth no more Ra's. The Lazarus Pit doesn't exist.

Fifth no Dick Grayson.

Sixth the ending of TDKR. You can't change that. You can't have Bruce come back.

Seventh the Wayne Manor is full of kids.

Eighth Wayne has no money. He gave it all away.

Ninth, no one wants John Blake.

Tenth people want a Batman more like the Arkham games. If you can do that then it can work and people will love it.

Eleventh, Batman's sacrifice for Gotham doesn't seem as epic.

Twelve, Batman had trouble fighting dogs so you really expect for him to take on Darkseid?
The stuff I highlighted...what the hell does that have to do with anything? We're talking about Justice League.

You cant have Bruce come back? Why not? Until it's confirmed that we have a new actor in place for a bat reboot, I say you can.

What does Wayne Manor have to do with anything? Irrelevant.

Lucius said they'd be able to get there money back in the long run.

No one wants John Blake? For what? He doesn't have to show up in JL.

Fanboys want Batman like Arkham (I do too, eventually) but the majority don't even know that exists or they do but they don't care. The GA will respond more to Bale than a new Batman that's like the comics. The general audience doesn't care about comic Batman.

Batmans sacrifice, if written well, could be enhanced. Leaving Gotham behind for good and moving on to greater things, returning as a "God" to the people even though he's human. People will believe he's immortal or a God in the way they'll look at Superman.

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Old 04-18-2013, 03:05 PM   #20
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Whatever, the end of TDKR is one of my fav endings of all time and I say this as a hardcore batman fan as well. I don't care what others think, Batman is written in the comics to never retire and always want to carry on because they have copies of comics to sell forever.
You misunderstand my point. You can like TDKR's ending as much as you want. Your opinion and I don't have a problem with that. But to say that it stays true to the essence of Batman is absurd and objectively false.

I just love how you treat Bruce's dedication to Batman as something that writers invented over the past few years of the modern era just so that they could keep Batman ongoing. It has been there since the character's inception. Another reason they don't retire Batman is because you can still tell great stories with Bruce. What would be the point to retire him? Yes, money is a reason but that is because great storytelling will determine sales and since you have so much story potential left with Bruce, there is no reason to retire him. Are you really just going to rub Bruce's devotion to Batman as meaningless and say the only thing keeping him away from retirement is sales and that his story and character means nothing?

Quote:
I don't get people who say "lackluster ending" though. The man comes in and gives a different ending, something that isn't "batman on a rooftop going on forever" which happens in every Batman movie and will continue to happen for another century. He does something different PLUS he actually gives a happy ending to Bruce so he doesn't have to return to Gotham where all the root of his pain is. A happy ending. People should want at least one story where Bruce finds happiness even for a short amount of time, if they truly care about the character's well being. It's like you want the character to suffer for eternity. Yeaaah yeaaah it's in his character. For a long period of time absolutely, but it's still a load of crap because writers don't attempt this kind of thing because they'd get fired from a job. Don't chalk it up to purely "writing choices for the character". Im not that naļve.
First, you missed an entire point I made. YOU CANNOT GIVE BATMAN A FINAL HAPPY ENDING IF YOU PLAN TO INCLUDE THAT SAME BATMAN INTO A SHARED UNIVERSE! You can't have your cake and eat it too. Batman needs ongoing solo films if you're going to have a DC shared universe because him and Superman are the characters that will have to consistently have movies. From the second you decide to bring Bruce's journey to an end to the point where you can only have him in JL films, having Batman in a shared universe is an idea that goes bye-bye.

Second, there are ways to give Batman a happy ending without destroying the essence of Batman and it has been done before. Frank Miller did this in The Dark Knight Returns. Batman has a different view on life than we do; the thing that makes him happy is knowing that he is doing good in the world. What Nolan did to Batman was a happy ending for us if we were in Batman's shoes but that wouldn't be a happy ending for Bruce. In The Dark Knight Returns, we see Bruce finally getting to leave a happy quiet life by retiring as Batman but the essence of Batman is not disrespected in the book because he plans to train all the Sons of the Batman so that they continue his legacy (unlike Blake) in the horrible Post-Cold War world of the book. Miller manages to make Bruce find happiness without abandoning his Batman side in TDK Returns. Last line of the book is even Bruce saying that this new life will be a good life for him from now on. That is far different from what Nolan did. Nolan literally went against everything Batman is about.

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And then in JL if Bale were to return after said happy ending (there's ur Batman from the comics who doesn't retire right?) Then ud still nitpick. I guess u cant win .
Because it would be stupid and forced in. It wouldn't be a natural choice for him to come out; just stupid PIS so that WB can have Bale as Batman on the team.

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I guess there's different interpretations of Batman. Not any one of us is wrong. Therefore ill stick with Nolans Superman and Batman as a pair thank you.
Interpretations is one thing. Going against the essence of the character is another thing. No goodinterpretation has ever went completely against the essence of Batman. There is no excuse whatsoever for what Nolan did. Once again, if you like the ending, fine. If you think it works for the movie, fine. But if you try to argue that it works for Batman, then that is objectively false because it doesn't for reasons I already covered.

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I'm always open to a reboot. But it's a bit too soon when Christian Bale is only 39 years old and Michael Keaton was in his 40s during Batman Returns. Im looking at RDJ and Daniel Craig in their mid to late 40s and the success theyre having with Avengers and Skyfall and YES im thinking "a reboot is too soon when u can make billions right this moment with this guy over here".
Unless the actor looks ridiculously old, age doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not you can naturally continue a version of Batman and which version of Batman would fit better for the future (which would be the rebooted version).

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Old 04-18-2013, 03:37 PM   #21
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 9

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Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
YOU CANNOT GIVE BATMAN A FINAL HAPPY ENDING IF YOU PLAN TO INCLUDE THAT SAME BATMAN INTO A SHARED UNIVERSE! You can't have your cake and eat it too. Batman needs ongoing solo films if you're going to have a DC shared universe because him and Superman are the characters that will have to consistently have movies. From the second you decide to bring Bruce's journey to an end to the point where you can only have him in JL films, having Batman in a shared universe is an idea that goes bye-bye.

Second, there are ways to give Batman a happy ending without destroying the essence of Batman and it has been done before. Frank Miller did this in The Dark Knight Returns. Batman has a different view on life than we do; the thing that makes him happy is knowing that he is doing good in the world. What Nolan did to Batman was a happy ending for us if we were in Batman's shoes but that wouldn't be a happy ending for Bruce. In The Dark Knight Returns, we see Bruce finally getting to leave a happy quiet life by retiring as Batman but the essence of Batman is not disrespected in the book because he plans to train all the Sons of the Batman so that they continue his legacy (unlike Blake) in the horrible Post-Cold War world of the book. Miller manages to make Bruce find happiness without abandoning his Batman side in TDK Returns. Last line of the book is even Bruce saying that this new life will be a good life for him from now on. That is far different from what Nolan did. Nolan literally went against everything Batman is about.
Yes you can, if Nolan says he can then he can. And don't give me that crap about Nolan doesn't want this to mix with that. Believe what you want, but I don't believe jack **** unless I see a press release about a new actor and I see some more proof on the matter. JL is years away and new deals can come up.

Batman does NOT need ongoing solo films at the same time as JL for a shared universe to work. Not if 3 films are out there already. For a reboot with a young Batman? Sure. But even then, they can get away with an exclusive Batman for JL only.

Destroying the essence of the character...you should hear yourself. You act like you know everything about the real batman and others who loved the ending of TDKR don't know what Batmans about. Give me a break.

There's nothing wrong with caring about Bruce's character enough to want something positive for his outcome in life. Giving Bruce a happy ending should be looked at as a gift from Nolan to the fans of his character. After all the crap he goes through for Gotham and torturing himself, and he saves the city from a nuke, gets to live a happy life away from the pain AND the legend lives on. It's no different than Bruce training others. It's a spin on that, because once again, it's his take (like each writer has their own) and it's film not the comics. Stop being a purist.

Nolan told a story of a Batman that could exist in our world and he's done the same with Superman. MOS is not the purist comic book Superman either.

It's emotional to see Bruce live to see a light at the end of the tunnel. We probably wont see it that again. That's wonderful imo. Batman fans should want variety and not the same old repetitive ending all the time. Thank god Nolan shook things up a bit because people like you would be boring people like me with ur endings that have no imagination.

Who says Blake wont be trained by Bruce like he does in Returns?? Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not going to happen.

And going by what ur saying...TDKReturns was different from TDKRises...well yeah..because it's a different interpretation. Get over it. People change things in the comics too to suit their needs. It's called having a creative stamp.

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Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
Interpretations is one thing. Going against the essence of the character is another thing. No goodinterpretation has ever went completely against the essence of Batman. There is no excuse whatsoever for what Nolan did. Once again, if you like the ending, fine. If you think it works for the movie, fine. But if you try to argue that it works for Batman, then that is objectively false because it doesn't for reasons I already covered.
Here we go again, going against the essence. Good is subjective. Yeah there's an excuse it's called he does what he wants and I see billions of people loving it in the process.

Your reasons haven't convinced me and never will. I thought it was not only right for the movies, it's right for Batman because not one writer owns the characters story.

If Nolan brings the character back after he gave him peace then ull have to deal with it and maybe u shouldn't watch JL then. If it's rebooted ill shut up and begin speaking about possibilities for that new interpretation.

Bruce coming back to fight alongside Superman doesn't spit on anything unless he goes back to Gotham to repeat the same things. If he does it to save the planet while Gotham needs protection from another figure, and Bruce no longer has that pain, he doesn't return to Gotham, maybe he even starts the League as his own League of Shadows...that sounds perfect. It would be a spin on the whole Batman inc concept or even the end of TDKReturns, he's scouting superheroes.

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Old 04-18-2013, 03:44 PM   #22
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 9

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Yes you can, if Nolan says he can then he can. And don't give me that crap about Nolan doesn't want this to mix with that. Believe what you want, but I don't believe jack **** unless I see a press release about a new actor and I see some more proof on the matter. JL is years away and new deals can come up.

Batman does NOT need ongoing solo films at the same time as JL for a shared universe to work. Not if 3 films are out there already. For a reboot with a young Batman? Sure. But even then, they can get away with an exclusive Batman for JL only.

Destroying the essence of the character...you should hear yourself. You act like you know everything about the real batman and others who loved the ending of TDKR don't know what Batmans about. Give me a break.

There's nothing wrong with caring about Bruce's character enough to want something positive for his outcome in life. Giving Bruce a happy ending should be looked at as a gift from Nolan to the fans of his character. After all the crap he goes through for Gotham and torturing himself, and he saves the city from a nuke, gets to live a happy life away from the pain AND the legend lives on. It's no different than Bruce training others. It's a spin on that, because once again, it's his take (like each writer has their own) and it's film not the comics. Stop being a purist.

Nolan told a story of a Batman that could exist in our world and he's done the same with Superman. MOS is not the purist comic book Superman either.

It's emotional to see Bruce live to see a light at the end of the tunnel. We probably wont see it that again. That's wonderful imo. Batman fans should want variety and not the same old repetitive ending all the time. Thank god Nolan shook things up a bit because people like you would be boring people like me with ur endings that have no imagination.

Who says Blake wont be trained by Bruce like he does in Returns?? Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not going to happen.

And going by what ur saying...TDKReturns was different from TDKRises...well yeah..because it's a different interpretation. Get over it. People change things in the comics too to suit their needs. It's called having a creative stamp.

Here we go again, going against the essence. Good is subjective. Yeah there's an excuse it's called he does what he wants and I see billions of people loving it in the process.

Your reasons haven't convinced me and never will. I thought it was not only right for the movies, it's right for Batman because not one writer owns the characters story.

If Nolan brings the character back after he gave him peace then ull have to deal with it and maybe u shouldn't watch JL then. If it's rebooted ill shut up and begin speaking about possibilities for that new interpretation.

Bruce coming back to fight alongside Superman doesn't spit on anything unless he goes back to Gotham to repeat the same things. If he does it to save the planet while Gotham needs protection from another figure, and Bruce no longer has that pain, he doesn't return to Gotham, maybe he even starts the League as his own League of Shadows...that sounds perfect. It would be a spin on the whole Batman inc concept or even the end of TDKReturns, he's scouting superheroes.
I guess Nolan wishes he would have killed Bruce instead of showing him in the cafe.

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Old 04-18-2013, 10:29 PM   #23
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 9

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The stuff I highlighted...what the hell does that have to do with anything? We're talking about Justice League.

You cant have Bruce come back? Why not? Until it's confirmed that we have a new actor in place for a bat reboot, I say you can.

What does Wayne Manor have to do with anything? Irrelevant.

Lucius said they'd be able to get there money back in the long run.

No one wants John Blake? For what? He doesn't have to show up in JL.

Fanboys want Batman like Arkham (I do too, eventually) but the majority don't even know that exists or they do but they don't care. The GA will respond more to Bale than a new Batman that's like the comics. The general audience doesn't care about comic Batman.

Batmans sacrifice, if written well, could be enhanced. Leaving Gotham behind for good and moving on to greater things, returning as a "God" to the people even though he's human. People will believe he's immortal or a God in the way they'll look at Superman.
You do realize if Nolan's Batman is canon and used in JLA, everything about that series is canon. After JLA there will be more Batman movies but because you are still using Nolan's, you can't use Joker, Bane, Talia, Ra's, Two-Face people they are either dead or nothing can top their performance.

You reboot Batman in JLA, and you can use all of these characters.

Honestly, I don't want John Blake in this universe, I want Dick Grayson.

Also the fact that Wayne doesn't have a house is kind of big. Meaning HE DOESN'T HAVE THE CAVE!!!!

Also Alfred left so he can't come back in this series.

You have to build towards the future. A reboot helps that direction more so than keeping going with Nolan's series.

Also the quote I highlighted, YOU CAN NEVER DO THAT!!!!!!! Doing that makes Batman more important than Superman. You can not have that just **** no.

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Old 04-18-2013, 10:38 PM   #24
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 9

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You do realize if Nolan's Batman is canon and used in JLA, everything about that series is canon. After JLA there will be more Batman movies but because you are still using Nolan's, you can't use Joker, Bane, Talia, Ra's, Two-Face people they are either dead or nothing can top their performance.
And your point is? What need is there to use those villains again, especially for a project like JL?

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Honestly, I don't want John Blake in this universe, I want Dick Grayson.
John Blake is the Dick Grayson of this universe, unless they decide that they want to introduce Dick later.

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Also the fact that Wayne doesn't have a house is kind of big. Meaning HE DOESN'T HAVE THE CAVE!!!!
Not that big of a deal, he can get another one somewhere else. This has moved beyond Gotham now.

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Also Alfred left so he can't come back in this series.
Where are you getting that from? That's just an assumption, nothing more.

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Also the quote I highlighted, YOU CAN NEVER DO THAT!!!!!!! Doing that makes Batman more important than Superman. You can not have that just **** no.
If the story requires that Batman is more important than Superman, then so be it. I don't see why that has to be the source for a temper tantrum. It's not about what you want or what I want, it's about what works best in terms of storytelling.

For the record, I don't think Batman or Superman will be elevated over one another in any potential team up. They both have their unique points, but one thing is for sure, those two will definitely be more important than all the other heroes in the DC pantheon.

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Old 04-18-2013, 10:57 PM   #25
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 9

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John Blake is the Dick Grayson of this universe, unless they decide that they want to introduce Dick later.
John Blake is not the Dick Grayson of this universe

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