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Old 05-08-2013, 08:29 PM   #1
Disney Man
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Default Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

One of the reasons I love, and I mean LOVE all these movies by Marvel Studios was because what they were doing with they're characters on a paper, the way they were supposed to be made on the big screen!

Sony and Fox started that same route with both Spider-man and X-Men. Keyword: "started". Of course, until Sony released Spider-man 3 where they basically ruined one of the best Spidey villains in Venom and even fogged up Pete's own origin story. And then Fox with their X-Men 3 where they basically destroyed and killed off Cyclops, Professor X, and ruined Phoenix. Let's not even go to where both studios took Fantastic Four and Ghost Rider.

Comic book fans were alienated and have since been calling for the day both Sony and Fox would give back those rights to Marvel.

Seven Marvel Studio movies and it's still been a beautiful formula...

Until... Iron Man 3 came.

The Mandarin twist was something I'd have expect to see from Sony or Fox... but not Marvel Studios.

Kevin Feige, the biggest commandment of translating a comic book into the big screen is very simple: DO - NOT - ALIENATE - YOUR - FANS - THAT - HAVE - BEEN - READING - YOUR - BOOKS.

This is THE exact reason for the backlash Sony and Fox have been getting after their recent films.

"I think a lot of the fans may not like it if we make this character..." <--- The moment that kind of thought crosses your mind, just stop right there. Don't even think about pulling the trigger, because it's already a mistake.

We understand some changes have to be made to bring some of these characters and stories to make them more relatable to this era, something like Wolverine being 6 foot tall can't be helped, or even Spidey's organic web shooters, and that's because even if they weren't direct from the source material, they still didn't tarnish the integrity of those characters.

It's always about the CHARACTERS.

Feige knew before hand when this whole thing was being discussed about turning the Mandarin into a joke that it was going to cause a lot of controversy and even alienate some fans, but he still did it anyway... why? The twist didn't bring anything much to the story for the casual moviegoers, but it angered a lot of the fans of the book.

IM3 honestly almost felt like a Joe Quesada "One More Day" production, more so than a Kevin Feige one. It even felt more like a Shane Black "Lethal Weapon" movie than it did "The Avengers."

And yes, I've read the thread about how Captain America's quote from the Avengers basically tied the whole meaning of the IM3 film, but the point is, unless you're a philosopher dissecting every meaning of the film, all the fans saw was that of the greatest Iron Man villain basically ruined to the point that it became nothing but a JOKE. Bad enough the Mandarin wasn't a big villain, he got turned into literally a sideshow joke.

Once this trend starts, there's a good chance it's going to keep happening and even be more brazen.

Please Kevin, stay as true to not just your story, but also to your characters, both heroes and villains. Please do not turn these characters into a JOKE, a joke that other film makers in the future may not even bother using because the joke on the screen (that more of the mainstream media gets to see) got bigger than actual character on the book.

Hopefully this kind of thing won't need to happen again.

The best thing about Marvel Studios' movies have always been the fact that their stories and characters are both gratifying to the comic book fans and the general audiences as well.





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Old 05-08-2013, 08:53 PM   #2
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

Amen.

A quote from Shane Black to emphasize your point:

Quote:
I'm more interested in the idea of some critic saying, "they've chosen to do something rather interesting in a comic book movie" more than a couple fanboys saying *in a mocking voice* "I wanted space rings!"
You can hear him say this (at about the 58 minute mark) in the podcast at the following link, to me it's quite offensive and goes against everything Marvel Studios has been promising us for the past 5 years:
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Liste...ers-37355.html

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:15 PM   #3
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Amen.

A quote from Shane Black to emphasize your point:


You can hear him say this (at about the 58 minute mark) in the podcast at the following link, to me it's quite offensive and goes against everything Marvel Studios has been promising us for the past 5 years:

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Liste...ers-37355.html
Wow first time I heard of this.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:00 PM   #4
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

lol at the *****ing over the Mandarin twist. The Mandarin twist wasn't anywhere near as stupid as things Fox has done. It made perfect sense for the movie and the MCU itself and remained true to the idea of the character from the comics. The Mandarin as a concept just does not work in modern times, it's ****ing stupid.

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Old 05-08-2013, 10:54 PM   #5
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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The Mandarin as a concept just does not work in modern times, it's ****ing stupid.
This same argument was constantly used to say a live action Thor would never work... Just sayin'

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:01 PM   #6
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

Well at some point, one of their movies are gonna totally suck. All of the studios out there had a bad movie, even Pixar had bad movies. Its just a matter of time.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:04 PM   #7
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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all the fans saw was that of the greatest villain of the MCU was basically ruined to the point that it became nothing but a JOKE


Have you even read the comics or know the history of the Mandarin? He is not anywhere near one of the greatest Marvel villains. He's barely better than trash. The only reason he's somewhat well known as Iron Man's villain is because the rest of his rogues gallery is even worse. The way they portrayed the Mandarin in the film is hella more compelling than what's in the comics. Killian WAS the Mandarin. He even had Fing Fang Foom tattoos. The Mandarin is a symbol, not just a man in the MCU.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:08 PM   #8
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

Comic readers are a small fraction of the people buying movie tickets.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:10 PM   #9
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Comic readers are a small fraction of the people buying movie tickets.
Not that I don't believe you, but I bought 6 tickets for The Avengers (including the marathon premier). I paid 6 times as much as a normal viewer to see that film in theaters. And I know more comic fans who did the same than normal movie goers.

Go ahead and discount the fans' opinions. See how long that works out...

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:15 PM   #10
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Not that I don't believe you, but I bought 6 tickets for The Avengers (including the marathon premier). I paid 6 times as much as a normal viewer to see that film in theaters. And I know more comic fans who did the same than normal movie goers.

Go ahead and discount the fans' opinions. See how long that works out...
But they didn't discount fans' opinions. I think most people who have been Iron Man fans for years (not just since his movies came out) and have read a good deal of his comics would tell you that the Mandarin as a concept is trash and outdated, and what Marvel did was a good way to bring the character to the MCU and make him a villain actually worthy of being relevant in an Iron Man film. Make it an ideal, not a person. Because the magical rings, Fu Man Chu ******** was never going to fly. Sure, they could have just kept him the way we were expecting, but that wouldn't really add much to the film itself nor make the character stand out from your regular comic book villain. They had the opportunity to do something unique with the Mandarin and took it.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:18 PM   #11
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Because the magical rings, Fu Man Chu ******** was never going to fly.
But a glove with magical gems will.


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Old 05-08-2013, 09:42 PM   #12
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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But a glove with magical gems will.

First of all we don't even know if they're going to use the Infinity Gauntlet. Second, THE MANDARIN IS NOT IN THE SAME CLASS AS THANOS. Again, have you even read the comics? Not to mention using alien tech in an Iron Man movie is completely in contrast of the theme of them and why they didn't want to use alien rings in the first place.

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Old 05-08-2013, 10:11 PM   #13
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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But a glove with magical gems will.

Yes. Yes, it will.
Because Thanos is a cosmic character, and comes from a subgenre of comics where magic and spectacularly advanced alien technology are par for the course.

Iron Man comes from a subgenre of comics where it isn't. Yes, a character like Thanos *and* comic-book Mandarin fits right in with an Avengers movie, since the Avengers historically fight the over-the-top, uber-powered, cosmic villains with outlandish powersets and backstories. The Iron Man comics and movies are more concerned with "down-to-earth" nuts-and-bolts sci-fi, villains who are based on fairly credible modern technology, corporate warfare, and contemporary spy and political thrillers. That's not the milieu where a Fu Manchu with super-powered alien rings he nabbed from a dead dragon in a crashed flying saucer belongs.

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And this is the only one that turns him from "intimidating threat" to "hobo with smelly poops"
No, it turned him from "intimidating threat" to "intimidating threat with incredible superpowers, an army of similarly super-powered mercenaries, a vast amount of wealth and resources, and a genius intellect capable of providing Tony Stark with an enemy who is worthy of him."

The Mandarin is Killian. Period. Everybody who watched the movie (and plenty who haven't) knows that by now, including you. So any discussion of "zomg they raped the Mandarin" HAS to be predicated on discussion of KILLIAN as The Mandarin, NOT TREVOR SLATTERY as The Mandarin. Any argument that tries to make Trevor Slattery out to be The Mandarin is null and void and flat wrong.

And again: you know that. Don't play coy.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:20 PM   #14
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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But they didn't discount fans' opinions. I think most people who have been Iron Man fans for years (not just since his movies came out) and have read a good deal of his comics would tell you that the Mandarin as a concept is trash and outdated, and what Marvel did was a good way to bring the character to the MCU. Make it an ideal, not a person. Because the magical rings, Fu Man Chu ******** was never going to fly.
What exactly are you defending? Making Aldrich Killian The Mandarin was arguably the biggest deviation they've taken from the comics thus far in the MCU. Can you honestly say that is what you want them to continue doing? Obviously you aren't a fan of The Mandarin, fine. But what happens when they do the same to a character you prefer to The Mandarin?

It's not something I'll condone by paying for more than one ticket this time around. Sure the movie will do fine without my continued patronage, oh well. So will Fox and Sony movies.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:28 PM   #15
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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What exactly are you defending? Making Aldrich Killian The Mandarin was arguably the biggest deviation they've taken from the comics thus far in the MCU. Can you honestly say that is what you want them to continue doing? Obviously you aren't a fan of The Mandarin, fine. But what happens when they do the same to a character you prefer to The Mandarin?

It's not something I'll condone by paying for more than one ticket this time around. Sure the movie will do fine without my continued patronage, oh well.
I'm not saying I want them to continue doing it, I'm saying that they did it because the Mandarin was in a unique situation. Contrary to popular belief, the Mandarin has never been a popular or good villain. I don't know where this fairy tale about him being this great and iconic villain from the comics came from, but it's just not true and is revisionist history at best. They've done this before, in IM2, where they made Anton Vanko's son Whiplash and Crimson Dynamo, and this Mandarin thing is pretty much on par with that except done in a smarter way that is reverent to the themes of the movie.

This does not mean at all Feige is going to start signing off on turning villains and characters like Winter Soldier, Red Skull, Thanos, etc into things they aren't because Mandarin simply is not on that scale of iconography in the first place.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:35 PM   #16
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Making Aldrich Killian The Mandarin was arguably the biggest deviation they've taken from the comics thus far in the MCU.
What constitutes a "deviation" when it comes to the Mandarin, though? Dude has about a billion reinterpretations and reimaginings to his name over various mediums.

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Old 05-09-2013, 06:20 PM   #17
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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What exactly are you defending? Making Aldrich Killian The Mandarin was arguably the biggest deviation they've taken from the comics thus far in the MCU.
deviations in Iron Man, so far...

Pepper and Stark are an item
Jarvis is an A.I.

Rhodey is actual career military instead of some ex-soldier turned personal pilot

Obadiah Stane works for Stark Industries instead of being a business rival

Stark isn't kidnapped in Asia

Justin Hammer's not an old british criminal financier with an island base
Whiplash is russian and his dad was instrumental in the development of RT

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Old 05-09-2013, 06:48 PM   #18
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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But they didn't discount fans' opinions. I think most people who have been Iron Man fans for years (not just since his movies came out) and have read a good deal of his comics would tell you that the Mandarin as a concept is trash and outdated, and what Marvel did was a good way to bring the character to the MCU and make him a villain actually worthy of being relevant in an Iron Man film. Make it an ideal, not a person. Because the magical rings, Fu Man Chu ******** was never going to fly. Sure, they could have just kept him the way we were expecting, but that wouldn't really add much to the film itself nor make the character stand out from your regular comic book villain. They had the opportunity to do something unique with the Mandarin and took it.
What is this I dont even know. For some reason you keep saying Mandarin was a villian. He wasnt he was an actor. There was no unique situation. We are used to aliens, magic, and powerful weaponds because of Thor and The Avengers so bringing the real Mandarin would have been fine. They can keep all the fu chang ******** thats obv just stupid but leave his overall character with the rings and martial arts. But dont even come and tell me its okay to turn Iron mans main villian into a joke, into an annoying actor with some dumb annoying accent. Cause its just not. When I saw IM3 and the twist was revealed I was laughing at how stupod it was. My bro(no comic book fan at all) was laughing before me. Then your gonna say mandarin was a villian, he was killian. Well thats ********. If they at least they made killian a good villian maybe with some more background some people would be less mad but come on his character sucked. Oh boohoo I was an ugly scientist with great ideas an no one will listen to me and tony stark ditched me for this fine ass chick like anyone would so now i wanna destroy evryone. News flash, that girl tony got with came and worked with you real soon actually(possibly later that day) and your still bent on destroying everyone. Just real stupid.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:28 PM   #19
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Not that I don't believe you, but I bought 6 tickets for The Avengers (including the marathon premier). I paid 6 times as much as a normal viewer to see that film in theaters. And I know more comic fans who did the same than normal movie goers.

Go ahead and discount the fans' opinions. See how long that works out...
There are 40,000 members on this forum. Assuming that these are all individual and unique members (in actuality, there's probably a fair amount of people who have multiple accounts), and every single one of those people lived in the US (which many of them don't) and they all purchased 6 tickets for the Avengers (which they did not)...that would make 240,000 tickets.

Boxofficemojo's estimate of domestic ticket sales alone for The Avengers is 76,768,200.

240,000 tickets is only 0.3% of the estimated domestic tickets sales. 0.3%...and that's if every member of this forum lived in the US and bought SIX tickets.

Now, are there hardcore comic fans that aren't a member of this forum? Sure. Enough to make a significantly larger percentage of those tickets sales? Probably not.

I'm not entering into an argument about Marvel's business or creative practices. I'm simply pointing out to you that you are wholly incorrect about the buying power of the hardcore comic fan-base. We like to believe that we are voices worth listening to...and Marvel generally does listen. But they do so out of the goodness of their hearts, not because they're afraid of us cutting into their profits.

We don't mean squat when it comes to making money. Period.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:36 PM   #20
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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There are 40,000 members on this forum. Assuming that these are all individual and unique members (in actuality, there's probably a fair amount of people who have multiple accounts), and every single one of those people lived in the US (which many of them don't) and they all purchased 6 tickets for the Avengers (which they did not)...that would make 240,000 tickets.

Boxofficemojo's estimate of domestic ticket sales alone for The Avengers is 76,768,200.

240,000 tickets is only 0.3% of the estimated domestic tickets sales. 0.3%...and that's if every member of this forum lived in the US and bought SIX tickets.

Now, are there hardcore comic fans that aren't a member of this forum? Sure. Enough to make a significantly larger percentage of those tickets sales? Probably not.

I'm not entering into an argument about Marvel's business or creative practices. I'm simply pointing out to you that you are wholly incorrect about the buying power of the hardcore comic fan-base. We like to believe that we are voices worth listening to...and Marvel generally does listen. But they do so out of the goodness of their hearts, not because they're afraid of us cutting into their profits.

We don't mean squat when it comes to making money. Period.
Oh mathematics, cute.

Because there are only 40,000 comic book readers in the world. Let alone the US. And those comic book readers don't have any friends or family who they bring to the theaters (several times in some cases). And then those friends and family don't spread the word about the amazing job Joss Whedon did. Nah...

But more importantly than that, is what Feige said, "It is incredibly gratifying that people have responded to what comic fans have known for decades..."

We know what is good. We've been buying it and reading it since we were 6 years old.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:54 PM   #21
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Oh mathematics, cute.
Yes. It is cute...and irrefutable.

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Because there are only 40,000 comic book readers in the world. Let alone the US. And those comic book readers don't have any friends or family who they bring to the theaters (several times in some cases). And then those friends and family don't spread the word about the amazing job Joss Whedon did. Nah...
Did you even read my post?

I exaggerated those numbers highly in favor of the comic book fans...and they were still laughably low in terms of registering on the box office profit richter scale.

And I even said..."Now, are there hardcore comic fans that aren't a member of this forum? Sure. Enough to make a significantly larger percentage of those tickets sales? Probably not."

Quote:
But more importantly than that, is what Feige said, "It is incredibly gratifying that people have responded to what comic fans have known for decades..."

We know what is good. We've been buying it and reading it since we were 6 years old.
Again...I'm not trying to argue Marvel's business or creative practices. I'm only illustrating the the comic fan-base does not have any kind of real monetary sway in regards to profits of these films whatsoever.

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Old 05-08-2013, 10:08 PM   #22
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Oh mathematics, cute.

Because there are only 40,000 comic book readers in the world. Let alone the US. And those comic book readers don't have any friends or family who they bring to the theaters (several times in some cases). And then those friends and family don't spread the word about the amazing job Joss Whedon did. Nah...

But more importantly than that, is what Feige said, "It is incredibly gratifying that people have responded to what comic fans have known for decades..."

We know what is good. We've been buying it and reading it since we were 6 years old.
No matter how much you may want to deny it it's true: comic book fans make up between less than 1 and 1% of the box office profit. Yes, we give our opinions to our friends and families and take them to go see the movie. But even then we still don't make up that much of the profit. At the end of the day the GA is still mostly people who haven't read comics but enjoy the movies. So even if all the comic book fans boycotted the movies (which will never happen because let's face it curiosity is going to get the better of most of us) the movies will still turn out a profit.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:38 PM   #23
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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There are 40,000 members on this forum. Assuming that these are all individual and unique members (in actuality, there's probably a fair amount of people who have multiple accounts), and every single one of those people lived in the US (which many of them don't) and they all purchased 6 tickets for the Avengers (which they did not)...that would make 240,000 tickets.

Boxofficemojo's estimate of domestic ticket sales alone for The Avengers is 76,768,200.

240,000 tickets is only 0.3% of the estimated domestic tickets sales. 0.3%...and that's if every member of this forum lived in the US and bought SIX tickets.

Now, are there hardcore comic fans that aren't a member of this forum? Sure. Enough to make a significantly larger percentage of those tickets sales? Probably not.

I'm not entering into an argument about Marvel's business or creative practices. I'm simply pointing out to you that you are wholly incorrect about the buying power of the hardcore comic fan-base. We like to believe that we are voices worth listening to...and Marvel generally does listen. But they do so out of the goodness of their hearts, not because they're afraid of us cutting into their profits.

We don't mean squat when it comes to making money. Period.
This. People need to realize that the entire comic-buying fan base is small enough to be irrelevant to the issue of movie marketing and sales. That's why comics are dying as a medium.

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Old 05-11-2013, 03:14 PM   #24
starscream22
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poetic Chaos View Post
Comic readers are a small fraction of the people buying movie tickets.
I don't buy Ironman comic books but I did enjoy the cartoon from back in the 90's so I'm sure that plenty of other movie goers had and idea of who the Mandarin was. So does that make us fanboys as well?

And why is this "fanboy" term so common these days when writing people off anyway?

Is knowledge and appreciation of a comic book character a curse now?


It just sounds to me like a more classic take on the Mandarin would've cost more. So Marvel went the cheap route.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:31 PM   #25
Mr. Dent
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

^ Not to mention most people on this forum aren't actually die hard comic fans anyway.

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