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Old 05-22-2013, 04:57 PM   #1
BenKenobi
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Default *Spoilers* Problems caused by the MCU

Now I just want to start by saying I liked this movie, and I am simply trying to explain how the MCU has lead to the Iron Man series inability to live up to the initial installment.

When Iron Man came out back in 08, one reason people connected with it so well was because, despite some superheroics, for the most part it was rather grounded. The superpowers in the films universe were high tech and the whole thing seemed like it could happen. S.H.I.E.L.D. was a bunch of guys in black suits, Tony had a long trial and error process with the suits, people reacted accordingly. I remember sitting in the theater and thinking that it was like they were trying to do what Nolan had done (at this point) with Batman Begins, but in a more fun adventurous way.

Now the franchize was in a position to inevitably have to connect with the likes of the magic universe of Thor and the giant green monster the Hulk, and this sense of realism would have be adjusted accordingly. One of the big things I noticed immediately with Iron Man 2, was not only how much it was setting up with cameos, but with tone. Things were much larger in scale and much more over the top, right from the beginning with the completely ridiculous in scale Stark Expo. Of coarse they had to change the dynamics of the world in order for us to believe that Thor could coexist with Iron Man, but it has been a bit detrimental to the series.

No longer is there a technopunk kind of vibe on the screen but rather just that of another flashy comic book movie. It has become more difficult to believe whats going on, hence it has become more difficult to as effectively connect with the hero. Anyway am I alone in this observation or has anyone else come to a similar conclusion as well?

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Old 05-22-2013, 05:04 PM   #2
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I know the first thing I thought when the Mark 1 crashed down and flew apart with Stark just fine was, "Wow! There's some realism! Thank goodness this is a realistic movie! This could totally happen! I could build that thing IN A CAVE! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS! I could fly around in a super powered tin can and crash without the horrible side effect of painful, squishy death! Yay, realism!"

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Old 05-22-2013, 05:13 PM   #3
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I know the first thing I thought when the Mark 1 crashed down and flew apart with Stark just fine was, "Wow! There's some realism! Thank goodness this is a realistic movie! This could totally happen! I could build that thing IN A CAVE! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS! I could fly around in a super powered tin can and crash without the horrible side effect of painful, squishy death! Yay, realism!"
Oh yeah and when Bruce Wayne climbed the mountain and was trained by the league of shadows as a ninja, and proceeded to be selected as the groups new leader for the sole purpose of being the title character I was thinking "oh yay realism". Not many movies are strict to the laws of real world physics but compared to Spider-Man, Superman, almost any other superhero film that had been released that I can think of. It is pretty down to earth. Theres no superpowers or spandex, just someone who's very intelligent and wealthy who is capable to putting both to a good use. Picking at plot holes doesn't change my point.

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Old 05-22-2013, 05:22 PM   #4
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Eh, it was made clear that Iron Man was part of a superhero world. It was shown in the film that SHIELD was trying to keep the events secret, and it was also stated that other heroes existed. The "realism" just kinda worked with the particular origin story they were telling. The hints were already there that weirder things had happened in that particular universe.

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Old 05-22-2013, 05:23 PM   #5
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Eh, it was made clear that Iron Man was part of a superhero world. It was shown in the film that SHIELD was trying to keep the events secret, and it was also stated that other heroes existed. The "realism" just kinda worked with the particular origin story they were telling. The hints were already there that weirder things had happened in that particular universe.
that's not the point of his initial post... I think you should re-read it. I think his man issue is Iron Man himself became too large scale and fantastical. Not the universe itself but the solo films. They became less sciency fiction and more comicy fiction

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Old 05-22-2013, 05:24 PM   #6
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Default Re: *Spoilers* Problems caused by the MCU

Since when did "realism" because such a big deal?

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Old 05-22-2013, 05:29 PM   #7
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Since when did "realism" because such a big deal?
It's not about realism. it's about good fiction. Some comics even suffer from terrible writing and departures from source where readers are like "How the eff did that even happen?"

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Old 06-09-2013, 02:19 AM   #8
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Since when did "realism" because such a big deal?
Because in this day and age a filmmaker could make a film about a 50 foot tall fire breathing baby and by saying the key words : "Realistic or grounded" automatically convinces fanboys of the movie's quality.

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Old 06-09-2013, 02:23 AM   #9
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Because in this day and age a filmmaker could male a film about a 50 foot tall fire breathing baby and by saying the key words : "Realistic or grounded" automatically convinces fanboys of the movie's quality.


Thank you for that...sometimes I think I'm the only one..

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Old 06-09-2013, 02:31 AM   #10
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Thank you for that...sometimes I think I'm the only one..
my take is this...I like MOS and I plan on being there thursday night to see it but you can't really throw around realistic or grounded in a movie about Superman...sure they can say its more about the world Superman is in but which Superman movie didn't take place in a similar world to ours?

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Old 06-09-2013, 02:39 AM   #11
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my take is this...I like MOS and I plan on being there thursday night to see it but you can't really throw around realistic or grounded in a movie about Superman...sure they can say its more about the world Superman is in but which Superman movie didn't take place in a similar world to ours?
Wait for it...somebody is gonna take a long, hard tug at the straws with this one.

I've said it in another thread earlier today, but realism is not a selling point for a feature film. In and of itself, it doesn't make a film superior, but in the case of this genre we're all fond of, what you said is spot on - there isn't much realism in the first place, despite what the producers try to hammer into our brains.

I feel like it's as much of a cop out to praise a movie by lauding its realism as it is to criticize another film for its 'campy, cheesy, humor'


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Old 05-22-2013, 05:29 PM   #12
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I really don't think that's true, though. Iron Man 3 may have been "more flashy", but that's more of a combination of the source material they were adapting and the director/writer. Iron Man 1 was just as much a "comic book movie" that wasn't incredibly realistic. It was just adapting a slightly more plausible part of the Marvel Universe.

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Old 05-22-2013, 05:30 PM   #13
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I really don't think that's true, though. Iron Man 3 may have been "more flashy", but that's more of a combination of the source material they were adapting and the director/writer. Iron Man 1 was just as much a "comic book movie" that wasn't incredibly realistic. It was just adapting a slightly more plausible part of the Marvel Universe.
I have no problem with Iron Man either, I just like to be D.A. sometimes and try and understand both sides of the argument

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Old 05-22-2013, 05:39 PM   #14
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I remember sitting in the theater and thinking that it was like they were trying to do what Nolan had done
...aaaaand, I'm out.


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Old 05-22-2013, 05:41 PM   #15
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...aaaaand, I'm out.

I bet Nolan is eating this all up! lol..... such worship

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Old 05-22-2013, 08:22 PM   #16
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...aaaaand, I'm out.

That wasn't a good comment about Nolan, in fact he's one of my least favorite directors. He's brilliant but it's wasted because he seems to have no grasp of the concept of fun. His movies strive to be deep and profound at the expensive of being fun and up lifting. Any man who thinks Batman could improve from taking away his cape takes themselves far too seriously.

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Old 05-22-2013, 06:03 PM   #17
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Default Re: *Spoilers* Problems caused by the MCU

I disagree with Iron Man having much at all in common with Nolan's approach to Batman. Iron Man is really fantastical in nature (and I mean really).

I really like Nolan's trilogy but one of the things I don't think work that well are the blend of the overall "realism" (in lack of a better brief description) and the more comic elements. The latter stand out as less plausible, while in Iron Man it starts off very comic inspired right from the start so I'm much more inclined to buy into whatever they are throwing out.

That's why I think Iron Man is perfectly in line with the MCU as a whole. All of that really embraces the comic genre and make every fantastical element seem natural to it's own internal logic.

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Old 05-22-2013, 06:12 PM   #18
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Default Re: *Spoilers* Problems caused by the MCU

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Now I just want to start by saying I liked this movie, and I am simply trying to explain how the MCU has lead to the Iron Man series inability to live up to the initial installment.

When Iron Man came out back in 08, one reason people connected with it so well was because, despite some superheroics, for the most part it was rather grounded. The superpowers in the films universe were high tech and the whole thing seemed like it could happen. S.H.I.E.L.D. was a bunch of guys in black suits, Tony had a long trial and error process with the suits, people reacted accordingly. I remember sitting in the theater and thinking that it was like they were trying to do what Nolan had done (at this point) with Batman Begins, but in a more fun adventurous way.

Now the franchize was in a position to inevitably have to connect with the likes of the magic universe of Thor and the giant green monster the Hulk, and this sense of realism would have be adjusted accordingly. One of the big things I noticed immediately with Iron Man 2, was not only how much it was setting up with cameos, but with tone. Things were much larger in scale and much more over the top, right from the beginning with the completely ridiculous in scale Stark Expo. Of coarse they had to change the dynamics of the world in order for us to believe that Thor could coexist with Iron Man, but it has been a bit detrimental to the series.

No longer is there a technopunk kind of vibe on the screen but rather just that of another flashy comic book movie. It has become more difficult to believe whats going on, hence it has become more difficult to as effectively connect with the hero. Anyway am I alone in this observation or has anyone else come to a similar conclusion as well?
Almost all sequels do this though, it uses the formula that worked last time and up the stakes. However, I didn't think the tone of the movie was changed all that much, how were the dynamics changed? It was still Tony being pretty much an egomaniac, he was a bit more of a loose cannon in Iron Man 2, but it was part of the plot, he was pretty much in screw it attitude, I'm gonna die soon so let's go out with a bang.

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Old 05-22-2013, 06:15 PM   #19
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Default Re: *Spoilers* Problems caused by the MCU

There have been Nolan influences from day one with Iron Man.

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Old 05-24-2013, 09:40 PM   #20
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There have been Nolan influences from day one with Iron Man.
Please ..... by all means, speak more of this absolute nonsense.


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Old 05-27-2013, 01:00 AM   #21
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Please ..... by all means, speak more of this absolute nonsense.

Favreau himself said so back in 2008. His first IM movie had been inspired by Batman Begins.

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Old 06-08-2013, 11:39 PM   #22
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Favreau himself said so back in 2008. His first IM movie had been inspired by Batman Begins.
Where is everyone getting this?

All I've been able to find is that Favreau commended him for his contributions to the genre; never have I seen a quote where he explicitly claims that IM took direct influences from BB.

Nolan gets way too much reverence on these boards.

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Old 06-08-2013, 11:57 PM   #23
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Default Re: *Spoilers* Problems caused by the MCU

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Nolan gets way too much reverence on these boards.
Yes, you get used to it after a while. Accepting it is a different story though...

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Old 05-22-2013, 06:33 PM   #24
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^Yes there have. Favreau even said so. But even more than that there was a set goal to start out small/more grounded and gradually get more comic book fantastical. Favs said that as well. Where as Nolan pretty much kept it all in line throughout his films and chose not to expand, the Iron Man franchise had a different goal all along. I would argue that Nolan after BB could have done the same as well, had he chosen to do so.

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Old 05-22-2013, 06:42 PM   #25
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Default Re: *Spoilers* Problems caused by the MCU

If they intended to not be really fantastical they failed in my eyes. Building a world-changing invention, that Stark Industries can't build with all their resources, with a box of scraps in a cave isn't exactly a grounded start.

Then basically going from a couple of small tests to trying out the suit as soon as it's ready in an extremely dangerous text, with all but perfect results, isn't exactly grounded either. Of course Stane, who hadn't even built anything, also got his Iron Monger suit to work perfectly the first time he tested it as well. Not to mention that the whole Iron Man suit concept isn't at all realistic to begin with as there's a ton of things about it that are impossible in real life.

It all works very well in the movie but in my opinion it's because it seemingly never tries to be something that's plausible in real life. It's a comic book movie through and through in my eyes.

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