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Old 05-23-2013, 11:38 AM   #1
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Default Race changes that wouldn't bother you

What are race changes that wouldn't bother you.

Personally i could care less if they changed up Wonderman


what are your suggestions?

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Old 05-23-2013, 11:42 AM   #2
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M.o.d.o.k.

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Old 05-23-2013, 12:17 PM   #3
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Given that minorities were considered to be outside of the mainstream in US society when many of our most popular superheroes were created, some degree of colorblind casting has to take place. This is not only to be fair to actors and actresses of color, but also to better reflect the viewing audience, and also to attract foreign viewers in a market has become more and more dependent on international box office receipts. Personally, I have a sliding sale from least risky to most:

1) Villain (e.g. Kingpin, Electro, Mandarin, Bane), Supporting Character (e.g. Perry White, Alicia Masters, Harvey Dent, Heimdall), Underused Hero (e.g. Nick Fury, Wonderman) - Go ahead and make the change. No problems here.

2) Fully masked Iconic Hero (e.g. Spiderman, Deadpool) - Riskier than the first group, But given that the look of the character remains the same regardless of the person's race, it's ok so long as you have a damn good reason.

3) Cowled Iconic Hero (e.g. Batman, Captain America, Daredevil) - More difficult than the prior category, and easier for a character like Daredevil who is less well known and has yet to have a successful film.

4) Unmasked Iconic Hero (e.g. Superman, The Human Torch) Casting Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm would change the look of a character that has existed as both human and robot since 1939. You would have to have an extremely good reason to make a change under these circumstances

5) Race or Ethnic Specific Iconic Hero (e.g. Luke Cage, Black Panther, Tonto) Given the dearth of minority comic book heroes, under no circumstances should you change the race of these classic characters.

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Old 05-23-2013, 01:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

I actually don't think race changes would bother me at all most of the time, or ever probably. I remember hearing that Michael Clarke Duncan was going to play Kingpin, and that Cuba Gooding Junior wanted to play Daredevil, I thought that would have been cool. Plot would have still been bad though. It wouldn't have bothered me if Donald Glover played Peter Parker (Parker being my favorite superhero, and one I relate to the most). The one time I can remember getting upset was when I heard Laurence Fishburne was going to play Doc Ock in Spider-Man 2. I was upset because I thought Doc Ock was this older German sortof fat guy. And I was seeing them change him into Morphius from the Matrix, not necessarily because of his race though.
And seeing how Fishburn looks as Perry White now, and if he did a German accent I would have been fine.
The rare occassions is when the character's ethnicity is a big part of who they are, Black Panther is African, so is Storm (although she grew up elsewhere), Gambit is Cajun, Banshee is Irish, Wolverine is Canadian, The last three maybe their race could change but their accents shouldn't.
With the majority of characters being white I don't mind them changing the race, but I don't think they should change a character's race if in the comics they are "a minority." Because there aren't as many characters like that.

I'm more upset at changes like making Dr. Doom a CEO instead of a dictator, or giving him electric powers and metal skin instead of a suit of armor. Or cluttering up a movie with too much stuff like in Daredevil, making what could have been a good film bad by trying to do everything in the first movie. Or over explaining things like in Ang Lee's Hulk.

I'd be fine with changing the race of Bruce Banner, Peter Parker, Ted Kord/Blue Beetle, even Johnny Storm as long as Sue Storm was the same race since they are brother and sister. Batman, Superman, wouldn't bother me.

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Old 05-23-2013, 04:52 PM   #5
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

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Originally Posted by Zarex View Post
5) Race or Ethnic Specific Iconic Hero (e.g. Luke Cage, Black Panther, Tonto) Given the dearth of minority comic book heroes, under no circumstances should you change the race of these classic characters.
You make very good arguments but I have an issue with this last point.
Why is it not okay to change the race of of an established ethnic Hero, but it is okay to do so for a Villain? Villains can be as iconic as their Hero counterparts, sometimes more so. Yet from your #1 you were okay with the Madarin being played by someone not of Asian ethnicity...

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Old 05-23-2013, 05:44 PM   #6
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You make very good arguments but I have an issue with this last point.
Why is it not okay to change the race of of an established ethnic Hero, but it is okay to do so for a Villain? Villains can be as iconic as their Hero counterparts, sometimes more so. Yet from your #1 you were okay with the Madarin being played by someone not of Asian ethnicity...
I feel the same way about Bane, Electro and The Kingpin. In comic book movies most villains are of the "one and done" category, and the viewer gains little insight into their ethnic backgrounds. Also, villain types have fewer fans who are insistent on racial consistency. An Asian Mandarin is preferred, but I think Black and company provided some solid reasoning for the change.

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Old 05-23-2013, 06:43 PM   #7
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

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You make very good arguments but I have an issue with this last point.
Why is it not okay to change the race of of an established ethnic Hero
Isn't everyone ethnic?

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Old 05-24-2013, 05:19 PM   #8
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

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Isn't everyone ethnic?
Yes, but I was paraphrasing his words to talk about that last point he made.
How does your question contribute to the conversation?

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Old 05-24-2013, 06:59 AM   #9
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

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You make very good arguments but I have an issue with this last point.
Why is it not okay to change the race of of an established ethnic Hero, but it is okay to do so for a Villain? Villains can be as iconic as their Hero counterparts, sometimes more so. Yet from your #1 you were okay with the Madarin being played by someone not of Asian ethnicity...
When the ethnicity of a character is important only as a racist caricature, I think it's actually *wise* to move away from that. I'm not a fan of Political Correctness at all, but there are definitely certain stereotypes that are way, way over the line, and comic-book Mandarin was one of them.

IM3 made a good case --- two of them, in fact --- for Mandarin not having to be Chinese at all. And Shane Black wasn't the first to come up with that notion, anyway. Hell, the animated version of Mandarin in the 1990s Iron Man toon wasn't even *human,* much less Chinese.

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Old 05-24-2013, 05:30 PM   #10
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

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When the ethnicity of a character is important only as a racist caricature, I think it's actually *wise* to move away from that. I'm not a fan of Political Correctness at all, but there are definitely certain stereotypes that are way, way over the line, and comic-book Mandarin was one of them.

IM3 made a good case --- two of them, in fact --- for Mandarin not having to be Chinese at all. And Shane Black wasn't the first to come up with that notion, anyway. Hell, the animated version of Mandarin in the 1990s Iron Man toon wasn't even *human,* much less Chinese.
The only thing that is perhaps a 'racist caricature' about the comics Mandarin is his physical appearance from when he was first conceived.
That appearance can be changed without changing his race.

If we're talking about changing characters races to appeal to the modern audience and to level the playing field for actors and give those struggling minority actors a chance at getting good roles then I don't see how this particular example is not a bigger deal. Hero roles aren't the only coveted parts for actors. Villain roles can sometimes be more successful in launching someone's career to the next level. Look at what playing a serial killer did to Anthony Hopkins and Charlize Theron's careers.
Why wasn't an asian actor given the opportunity of playing a great character with so much history? Because it's "racist"? It only would've been racist if Mandarin had been written as a joke of a character.
Replace the part played by Pierce in IM3, exactly as it was written, with an Asian actor and then tell me that would've been racist.

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Old 05-25-2013, 12:36 AM   #11
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

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The only thing that is perhaps a 'racist caricature' about the comics Mandarin is his physical appearance from when he was first conceived.
That appearance can be changed without changing his race.

If we're talking about changing characters races to appeal to the modern audience and to level the playing field for actors and give those struggling minority actors a chance at getting good roles then I don't see how this particular example is not a bigger deal. Hero roles aren't the only coveted parts for actors. Villain roles can sometimes be more successful in launching someone's career to the next level. Look at what playing a serial killer did to Anthony Hopkins and Charlize Theron's careers.
Why wasn't an asian actor given the opportunity of playing a great character with so much history? Because it's "racist"? It only would've been racist if Mandarin had been written as a joke of a character.
Replace the part played by Pierce in IM3, exactly as it was written, with an Asian actor and then tell me that would've been racist.
I agree that Killian didn't have to be white. They could've made him "Dr. Qi Lin" instead of Killian, made him a brilliant Chinese scientist and otherwise told Killian's story word for word, and making "Dr. Qi Lin" the actual Mandarin wouldn't have been racist, imho. But with Disney/Marvel walking on eggshells around their supposed Chinese benefactors, such a portrayal could've been seen as a lot more problematic to the Hollywood bigwigs.

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Old 05-24-2013, 08:37 AM   #12
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

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5) Race or Ethnic Specific Iconic Hero (e.g. Luke Cage, Black Panther, Tonto) Given the dearth of minority comic book heroes, under no circumstances should you change the race of these classic characters.
I'm sorry, I keep seeing Luke Cage's name pop up on character's who's race shouldn't change, but how is his race specific to his character? How would his back story be altered if he were white or Hispanic?

There aren't any people other than black living in Harlem?

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Old 05-24-2013, 03:50 PM   #13
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I'm sorry, I keep seeing Luke Cage's name pop up on character's who's race shouldn't change, but how is his race specific to his character? How would his back story be altered if he were white or Hispanic?

There aren't any people other than black living in Harlem?

Agreed. You can't just say "Well Luke Cage is well-known as a prominent black hero". I say to that "Spiderman is well-known as a prominent white dude".


Personally, I think all races should stay how they are in the books as much as possible. I find it kind of lazy of Marvel to change a well known character's race to appeal to minority readers. JUST MAKE SOME NEW COOL MINORITY CHARACTERS!

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Old 05-24-2013, 04:11 PM   #14
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

I think the thing is,Marvel in particular already has a lot of black heroes/characters in their roster-most of which have been in films or soon will be.The problem only seems to come back to FF where there's no real black character in that series.So it seems they're determined to somehow alter any character in the series to cast a black actor.

The same thing is the case with Perry White in Superman.There's no real memorable black character in Supes history,so they have to resort to race changing to make a prominent role for a black character. That's the race changing that is the most offensive to me.

There's no race changing usually when a series has a prominent black character involved (Batman has Fox for example.)

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Old 05-29-2013, 10:55 AM   #15
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

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Superman.There's no real memorable black character in Supes history,so they have to resort to race changing to make a prominent role for a black character. That's the race changing that is the most offensive to me.
There are some. There is probably no room in this movie for them, though. A movie's got a limited amount of time to tell it's story, and I think shoehorning John Henry Irons in there just to have a black guy is not better than changing a preexisting character to a black guy. At least if Laurence Fishbourn played "Superman's boss" it doesn't significantly change the story, except that Superman's boss now happens to be black. Unless Superman and Perry White are famous for their racial discussions.

Is it gimmicky? A little. But it's not like their changing Krypton to be future Earth or something. Back when I was a kid they made Harvey Dent black and it turned out okay. But then they made Two Face white and suddenly racial accuracy's not that important.

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Old 05-25-2013, 09:35 AM   #16
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Agreed. You can't just say "Well Luke Cage is well-known as a prominent black hero". I say to that "Spiderman is well-known as a prominent white dude".
Changing a non-white character's race to white is bad because non-white characters are underrepresented.


Quote:
Personally, I think all races should stay how they are in the books as much as possible. I find it kind of lazy of Marvel to change a well known character's race to appeal to minority readers. JUST MAKE SOME NEW COOL MINORITY CHARACTERS!
It's damn near impossible to create a popular character on the fly. It takes genius and a lot of luck for a character to become a cultural icon or even have any staying power.

How many cultural icons have been invented from comics in the last ten years?

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Old 05-25-2013, 09:41 PM   #17
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Changing a non-white character's race to white is bad because non-white characters are underrepresented.




It's damn near impossible to create a popular character on the fly. It takes genius and a lot of luck for a character to become a cultural icon or even have any staying power.

How many cultural icons have been invented from comics in the last ten years?
Regarding your first comment, if race IS a big deal, you can't change any races. If race ISN'T a big deal, than why worry about race to begin with? Its meaningless political correctness. Its asinine to say one character's race is more important than anothers'. Race either matters or it doesn't. You can't have both.

Regarding your second comment, is anyone really trying? How often in the last ten years has Marvel or DC said 'Hey, we've got a new hero that we're releasing, check out __man issue 1!" If Marvel put the time and effort in creating a new character instead of killing off Peter Parker in the Ultimate Universe, maybe they would have had something. I'm sorry, but Spiderman IS Peter Parker. He's not a legacy character. And Peter Parker IS white. Just like Falcon IS black. Or everyone in Big Hero 6 IS Japanese.

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Old 05-24-2013, 05:41 PM   #18
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I'm sorry, I keep seeing Luke Cage's name pop up on character's who's race shouldn't change, but how is his race specific to his character? How would his back story be altered if he were white or Hispanic?

There aren't any people other than black living in Harlem?
White comic book heroes outnumber their black counterparts by an enormous degree. It is, in my opinion, profoundly stupid to change the race of the few who do exist.

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Old 05-24-2013, 06:08 PM   #19
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White comic book heroes outnumber their black counterparts by an enormous degree. It is, in my opinion, profoundly stupid to change the race of the few who do exist.

Its profoundly stupid to the change the race of any character.

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Old 05-24-2013, 10:05 PM   #20
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White comic book heroes outnumber their black counterparts by an enormous degree. It is, in my opinion, profoundly stupid to change the race of the few who do exist.
What's profoundly stupid is to change the race of a character just to diversify the cast. Especially characters who have been written and draw for decades a certain way. If people feel there aren't enough minorities in comics, go make some up.

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Old 05-24-2013, 11:26 PM   #21
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

Double post

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Old 05-24-2013, 08:52 PM   #22
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

hopefully more Marvel characters will become diverse, however it happens; especially in the comics.

The Inhumans is a good choice-- they were created by Celestials, "Pre-Civilization", in the ancient world, so there's no reason why they should ALL have to be perfectly Western-European in looks.

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Old 05-23-2013, 01:04 PM   #23
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That's a pretty good breakdown Zarek. There's nuances in each group. Ie, It's a lot easier to change Human Torch, a relatively minor character who's race is incidental, than it is to change Captain America, a more well known character who is at the forefront of the military in WWII.

I think the most "controversial" changes I'd be up for in the Marvel Universe are:
Any 2 members of the Fantastic Four
Daredevil
Any Done Before in other adaptations
- Janet Van Dyne
Any Aliens Really
- Mar-Vell
- Silver Surfer

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Old 05-23-2013, 01:56 PM   #24
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That's a pretty good breakdown Zarek. There's nuances in each group. Ie, It's a lot easier to change Human Torch, a relatively minor character who's race is incidental, than it is to change Captain America, a more well known character who is at the forefront of the military in WWII.

I think the most "controversial" changes I'd be up for in the Marvel Universe are:
Any 2 members of the Fantastic Four
Daredevil
Any Done Before in other adaptations
- Janet Van Dyne
Any Aliens Really
- Mar-Vell
- Silver Surfer
Personally, I would have much more of a problem with a change in Johnny Storm than either Spider-man or Daredevil. Given their backgrounds, both characters could very well have been black or hispanic if they weren't created in the 1960s. To me, the characters in the FF seems more "white" than either Peter or Matt.

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Old 05-23-2013, 01:10 PM   #25
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Default Re: Race changes that wouldn't bother you

For non-iconic villains and support characters, go ahead. Big deal. The heroes themselves, nuh-uh (I consider Fury to be a support character, not hero).

Personally, I think the notion that Zarex mentioned that "minorities were considered to be outside of the mainstream in US society when many of our most popular superheroes were created" is a copout. I'm not jumping on Zarex personally; many people have said the same thing, he just brought it up here first. Yes, racial politics in media were a lot different back then. But even today, when most people are color blind, the vast majority of characters created for film, tv, and print are still white. And even when race issues in the media were at their most controversial, we still got great black characters - Black Panther (1966), Falcon (1969), Luke Cage (1972), Storm (1975).

If WB decided they were gonna reboot Harry Potter and cast a black child, the world would throw a fit, even though it was written at end of the 20th century. Why? Because everyone knows Harry Potter is a little white boy. If someone were to make Life of Pi, and use a white kid instead of Indian, people would also be up in arms. Because the kid in Life of Pi is supposed to be an Indian boy.

And isn't it kinda insulting to minorities to change well-known characters to a different race just to placate them? It's basically them saying, "We know there's black, latin, asian superheroes out there. But instead of simply including them, we're just gonna take this white character and make him black, latin, asian so you'll feel special." That's like putting a bunch of hockey players in blackface just to get black people interested in the sport.

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