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Old 08-08-2013, 09:03 AM   #1
Kazuki
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Default Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

If i hadnīt seen the score on RT, IMDB, MetaCritic, etc, and only read forum and blog comments, and then had to guess, i would think this movie had something like 5/10 on IMDB and 50% on RT.

Reading comments, it really seems this movie is extremely hated, wich of course doesnīt reflect the reality, because around 90% of the people actually loved this movie. Isnīt this weird?

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Old 08-08-2013, 10:14 AM   #2
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

It is weird. I feel like it gets hated a lot. Even outside of the internet. I was out with a couple friends and some of their friends brought up Bane and someone said "that movie sucked." And I'm like "...I liked it." and they were all "no it sucked." "More I watched it the more I hated it" "Bane was stupid."
I'm just all

I go to Youtube and watch a clip of it and they are all hating on it too. "Yeah Chris Nolan ****ed up Selina in this movie." "So disappointing after Dark Knight."

And I see a lot of hate here too.

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Old 08-08-2013, 10:46 AM   #3
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

I love when people say "More I watched it more I hated it"...usually code for "The more plot holes I read about on the internet, the more I felt I had to change my opinion."

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Old 08-08-2013, 11:59 AM   #4
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

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Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
I love when people say "More I watched it more I hated it"...usually code for "The more plot holes I read about on the internet, the more I felt I had to change my opinion."
Than how come I haven't changed my opinion of BB or TDK after also reading about plot holes of those films? Cause according to some Rises fans there are the same plot holes present, some suggest even more or worse.

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Old 08-08-2013, 12:05 PM   #5
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

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Than how come I haven't changed my opinion of BB or TDK after also reading about plot holes of those films? Cause according to some Rises fans there are the same plot holes present, some suggest even more or worse.
Because at this point, it's been years and our opinions are solidly formed about those films. We're more inclined to stick with our original gut feeling.

Whereas in the case of TDKR, the cement was still very wet and you had articles galore listing all these plot holes and such the very next day.

A lot of people felt that way on their first viewing, and that's fine. But I know for a fact that some people changed their opinion after reading about them...some of my own friends fit this category. And I give them crap for it, haha.

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Old 08-08-2013, 12:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

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Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
Because at this point, it's been years and our opinions are solidly formed about those films. We're more inclined to stick with our original gut feeling.

Whereas in the case of TDKR, the cement was still very wet and you had articles galore listing all these plot holes and such the very next day.

A lot of people felt that way on their first viewing, and that's fine. But I know for a fact that some people changed their opinion after reading about them...some of my own friends fit this category. And I give them crap for it, haha.
I doubt many people who liked rises decided they actually didn't after reading an article on the internet. That probably only affected those who were on the fence, or only thought it was average from the get go.

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Old 08-08-2013, 01:59 PM   #7
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

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I doubt many people who liked rises decided they actually didn't after reading an article on the internet. That probably only affected those who were on the fence, or only thought it was average from the get go.
I never said most or many. Just that there are some that are, such as possibly the people the OP referenced in his post about how "the more I watched it, the worse it got", etc.

I mean, I have a friend who liked TDKR a lot when we walked out of the theater. Then he saw it a second time with his gf and told me he loved it even more. Months later, he links me to a "Everything Wrong with TDKR in 3 minutes" video and suddenly he changes his tune. Not outright bashing it, but lowering his opinion of the film significantly.

That's the kind of thing I don't respect much. Form your own opinion and don't disregard your initial gut reaction to something. Film is always going to have a huge subjective element to it.

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Old 08-08-2013, 12:37 PM   #8
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

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Than how come I haven't changed my opinion of BB or TDK after also reading about plot holes of those films? Cause according to some Rises fans there are the same plot holes present, some suggest even more or worse.
Give it two years after we get a reboot. I promise that most of the fan base will hate those two movies too. You can count on it.

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Old 08-08-2013, 11:08 AM   #9
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

If I didn't come on here...oh boyyyyy.

I have yet to hear a bad thing about the movie. Everyone thinks it's amazing. Then I come on various messageboards where there's nothing but Batman or superhero geeks...and it's nothing but hate. It's to be expected when it's "superherohype" etc. Most of these folks are die-hard comic book readers and feel like the fans of the character need to be rewarded more than the general audience. It's not why these movies are made.

These are people who probably have the goofiest taste in movies and don't appreciate acting, cinematography, emotion. Not all, obviously, you can dislike it and still appreciate those things. But I predict the majority are like that. Ive even heard the haters rant about Michael Caine's acting in this....REALLY?? hahaha allllriiighty then.

I bet if I took a poll with all the haters of TDKR about their top 20 films of all time, we'd probably see nothing but comic book or popcorn movies, comedies, dumb action flicks. I dig those too, but I would bet ANYTHING that would be the case for most of em'.

Most of the complaints have been about plot holes (ive seen more plotholes in classic films honestly) or it being too long and boring (A.D.D much?) or they don't like the "Robin" decisions or "the ending" (obviously because theyre too stuck up on the comics).

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Old 08-08-2013, 12:34 PM   #10
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

It is a surreal disconnect. Critics loved it, the general audience liked it...but the fans? It feels like the majority hated it. My guess is if it ended with a cliffhanger for adventures ahead, it would be loved.

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Old 08-08-2013, 12:42 PM   #11
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

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It is a surreal disconnect. Critics loved it, the general audience liked it...but the fans? It feels like the majority hated it. My guess is if it ended with a cliffhanger for adventures ahead, it would be loved.
If Blake's name was revealed to be Dick Grayson and it ended with Bruce as Batman looking over the city, everyone would have loved it. This is why I get criticized when I call people purists on here. But the truth hurts.

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Old 08-08-2013, 12:44 PM   #12
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

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If Blake's name was revealed to be Dick Grayson and it ended with Bruce as Batman looking over the city, everyone would have loved it. This is why I get criticized when I call people purists on here. But the truth hurts.
I, and I bet others, would have still thought it was kind of a dumb movie and the worst of the 3.

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Old 08-08-2013, 12:56 PM   #13
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

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I, and I bet others, would have still thought it was kind of a dumb movie and the worst of the 3.
Why is it a dumb movie? And what kind of movies you donīt consider dumb? Just curious...

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Old 08-08-2013, 01:36 PM   #14
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

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Why is it a dumb movie? And what kind of movies you donīt consider dumb? Just curious...
No offense but I'd rather not get into it. I believe it has been well documented on this site what people loved/hated about the film so it would just start another back and forth.

In regards to films I think are dumb, I'll just say I have liked every other Nolan film. So I am not an anti-Nolan fan.

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Old 08-09-2013, 07:17 AM   #15
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

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If Blake's name was revealed to be Dick Grayson and it ended with Bruce as Batman looking over the city, everyone would have loved it. This is why I get criticized when I call people purists on here. But the truth hurts.
Um... that would've just reminded them of B&R, I think. And also *****. Lots of *****.

Seriously, most of the criticisms I've seen of this movie were about its cinematic qualities and how it stands up as a follow-up of TDK, not stupid nerdpick ******** like this.
I mean yes, the Robin reference has annoyed many, but I think it was more the concept of it and the in-your-face yet throwaway manner in which it was handled, not that the name was Robin.

So, what now, my truth hurts more? Whatever


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Old 08-08-2013, 01:04 PM   #16
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

I only don't like the things that aren't good.

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Old 08-08-2013, 01:53 PM   #17
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

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It's obvious you want me to say what I don't like about the movie so you could dig into why I am wrong, where I in turn would do the same and we would go around and around.
But weīre already going around and around about nothing. Wouldnīt it be better to go around about something? Iīm interested in your opinion. Instead of wasting time saying you donīt wanna talk about it, you could just waste time talking about it.

Unless youīre just one more of those people who at this point still donīt know what a plot hole is, i will have nothing to discredit.


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Old 08-08-2013, 02:02 PM   #18
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

Because it gets bitter and repetitive. I don't like the movie, but I'm glad you do.

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Old 08-08-2013, 02:05 PM   #19
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

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Because it gets bitter and repetitive. I don't like the movie, but I'm glad you do.
You saying the movie is dumb isnīt repetitive?

I was only hoping you were able to justify your opinion. Itīs obvious youīre not too confident on it.

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Old 08-08-2013, 02:10 PM   #20
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

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You saying the movie is dumb isnīt repetitive?

I was only hoping you were able to justify your opinion. Itīs obvious youīre not too confident on it.
You're right, I'm just saying this to sound cool on superherohype.com

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Old 08-08-2013, 02:20 PM   #21
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

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You're right, I'm just saying this to sound cool on superherohype.com
Well, iīm glad last year you had The Avengers to entertain you. Much easier to understand.

If you donīt, iīd just to give everyone a glimpse of how bad your understanding about the character is:

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A Batman who only cares about organized crime and allows other crime to happen in Gotham seems like the laziest Batman ever created
Youīre right. Batman shouldnīt care only about the big fish, who are actually responsible for most of the smaller fish existence. He should spend day and night catching all the criminals of a city with 10+ million people. Gotham shouldnīt even need a police. Batman takes care of everything. A kid painting a wall? Batman takes care of it.

How about SWAT Teams? Shouldnīt they be writing traffic tickets?

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Old 08-08-2013, 02:48 PM   #22
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

Eh,this happens all the time.It's the fanboy/internet culture we have.

I remember seeing Origins: Wolverine and thinking "Man,that was good.I really enjoyed it." So I run into a guy I know and I told him I liked the movie.And he was like "Yeah,it was alright." So, I kinda pressured him to tell me why he was pretty unenthusiastic about the film.He couldn't tell me.And I soon realised the "fanboy consensus" online was that the movie was a failure.

So I think the way a film is perceived online, colors the general opinion overall,eventually.People want to be one of the "cool kids",and not be seen beating the drum for what's considered a "bad movie".Me,I could give a crap what people think.I calls em as I sees em.

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Old 08-09-2013, 07:13 AM   #23
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

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Well, iīm glad last year you had The Avengers to entertain you. Much easier to understand.

If you donīt, iīd just to give everyone a glimpse of how bad your understanding about the character is:



Youīre right. Batman shouldnīt care only about the big fish, who are actually responsible for most of the smaller fish existence. He should spend day and night catching all the criminals of a city with 10+ million people. Gotham shouldnīt even need a police. Batman takes care of everything. A kid painting a wall? Batman takes care of it.

How about SWAT Teams? Shouldnīt they be writing traffic tickets?

It swings both ways: on the one hand, what drove this Batman, in this universe, to become active, was the organized crime and the effects it had on the city's crime in general; and it was established as early as in part 2 that he generally believed in "democracy" and was only willing to do what he did as long as the system was still dysfunctional.
Once the bigger fish was gone, and the economy improved I guess (maybe a bit thanks to his help in the aftermath), his retirement was consistent with his character, as well as with his growing frustration with the lines he had to cross in the process... of dealing with the big fish - it wasn't the happy retirement he had wished for (and thus set up as his character trait) in DK, but apart from that still more or less the retirement he had been planning to go into (or was it!).

On the other hand, robberies like the Joe Chill one always happen even without three mafias running a town, because the police, no matter how diligent and functional, isn't always there for prevention/justice - and it wouldn't at all be illogical for *a* Batman (not necessarily the Nolan one) to keep going regardless with that as his primary motivation. And that's where the problem with your frivolous, strawman-filled comment comes in - unless you're a firm believer in the system / "no man should have so much power" principle, there's really no particular reason why you SHOULDN'T continue patrolling the streets even with a perfectly functional police at the ready.
No, it's not about beating up jaywalkers and graffiti maestros - it's about preventing assaults, batteries, murders and worse things (mayor's not talking about wallpainters in his opening speech, you know), and doing his part in this in ADDITION to the police, rather than instead of them. Also, not hunting 1000 of them at once for goodness' sake - just intervening as much as he could, intimidating the rest through (you guessed it) fear... which is exactly what you see happening in TDK's opening montage

Plus he's got no jurismydiction to worry about, and can get away with hacking apart way more poisoned trees than Dirty Harry ever could - and... he's got his superior equipment and technology that he doesn't trust the police with... as established in this very movie, TDKR... WHILE its plot is already running!
So this (new - possibly inspired by the sonar thing in addition to the bomb thing) character trait of his, not trusting the already cleaned up police force, can easily work as a counterbalance to his previous retirement aspirations.
He's sitting there in his cave... still not trusting the cops... hiding precious tools from them... that he could totally use to aid crime prevention, but instead he's sitting in his basement/attic and mopes around in clinical, self-neglecting depression.

Hey, could it be that maybe... he really gave up due to said depression, and not because he thought the naughty wall painters weren't worth the effort? Interpretation!!

And that brings us right back to the problems with this film - one of those, if not the central one every other is dripping and sliding down the hill from, being Bruce's retirement. However, not because "Batman would never give up, man" as that possibility had clearly been set up previously... but because it hadn't been set up previously.
Not this kind of retirement - the depressed, meaningless one, the motivations for which clearly came about way after the TDK credits rolled. The failed energy project, the war wounds that came out of ****ing nowhere. The premature retirement, accepted long before the system became good enough for Bruce to declare that the city didn't "need Batman" now (=in his mind; if it actually was good enough, he might be overcautious, and be guilty of exactly the kind of flaw some people here claim he'd be guilty of if he were continuing stalking the streets; but we're just talking about character motivations here).

Last movie he did talk about leaving, yes - but that's not how the movie ended; while it isn't clearly stated whether the Joker's chaos or Dent's death changed his attitude regarding this issue or not, the tone of that ending montage DEFINITELY spelled something totally different from "goes into sad retirement". Energetic, action packed, darkly optimistic - things still aren't fixed, streets probably need cleaning up, and the police hunting down Batman with evil dogs; and yet he'll be there, the outcast, hated by the population, but still doing what needs to be done.
Who wasn't pumped to see some of that, if not a whole delicious bunch, carried over into the sequel? But no - apparently, a few weeks later, real life intervened, as it does, that enthusiastic fever slowly wayned once Bruce returned back home, realized there was kind of nothing to do really, and depression / daily life (and then depression) took over.

Unrealistic? Certainly not. But this is me filling in the gaps that the movie shouldn't just have filled, but filled up with some good, effective "show don't tell" storytelling and character development, not just kinda thrown at the wall to make the new arc work.
Now, suddenly, Batman is old and weak, and has to "rise up" again - not from the exile so tastily set up in TDK (that one is treated very marginally thoughout the whole movie), but from this new plot device that apparently developed off-screen. Chances are he only loses to Bane for that reason, and not because this scary guy is a force of furious nature menace who's risen from hell (he hasn't), and whose drive and determination trump even Batman's (the best apprentice of Ra's al Ghul!!), enabling him to easily challenge the previously invincible super-apprentice of Ra's al Ghul (just roll with it, it's from the first movie).
You see his speed... his ferocity... comes from the same place as the superhuman strength Bruce was able to develop; the ancient conspiracy society (again, just roll with it) who has learned to use a combination of mental, psychobabbelogical drive and secret techniques, moullded by time and success, in order to make its members excel at combat, strategy and stealth to a degree possibly unmatched by anyone else in the world - and he's been born in darkness to boot! Surely Bat's no match for that... so he needs to fall again, and find new, previously undiscovered strenght in himself, in the same dark place where Bane gained his, in order to rise up to his level, and find a yet even new source of will and vigor in order to finally do the impossible and defeat this demonbear of a man (in video game terms: LoS training = better than everyone, + strong personal motivation = best of the LoS, + moulded by darkness = Bane, + ticking bomb or whatever = TDKR!!) and save Gotham from its darkest day yet... oh wait, he's just old and weakened, and only has to rediscover his survival instincts (which he lost off-screen), in order to do that.

Oops! Apparently, this retirement atrocity doesn't only let down the 2nd movie, but also kinda ruins the impact of its own central conflict... feel the drama and excitement slowly oozing out of your soul yet?


It was stuff like this, along with Alfred's sudden concern for his safety (extending beyond the singular threat of Bane apparently) and reluctance to support him, resulting in their extremely poorly set up fallout, the ending twist doing as much damage to the main plot and Bane's character as it kinda gave it all a new interesting angle, the lazy-feeling "rookie cop takes on an elite ninja's job, uplifting music" conclusion, the phoned-in, again hardly set up not-threeway-romance and, not to forget, a whole bunch of awkward line delivery and hackneyed plot devices such as the "clean slate" that made it an inferior sequel to TDK.
Not worthy of hate by any means, very well-made in general as well as engaging and entertaining (mostly), it was just simply a disappointing, inferior follow-up with some weak, alieanating story decisions - probably in need of a rewrite / retool or two.

Yes, just my opinion obviously, but let's do a thought experiment here - let's imagine the movie HAD been rewritten, rectifying the rough bulk of problems I just rattled down, and making it flow naturally from TDK in really exciting ways (feel free to fill in the blanks here), and the real final version would've been released as an early draft that you could read.
Would you go "aww, what a shame they didn't stay with that one", or would you just kinda acknowledge it with a "yea, still cool, but certainly no TDKR!"? Rounding it off with a quip about how this is the devill while that was practice, maybe?

I kinda strongly feel it'd be the latter - but then again, I'm just some dude.

((Edit: cleaned up sloppy language, and cleared up a few points while at it))


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Old 08-08-2013, 02:16 PM   #24
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

To me it was really good until the last 30 minutes or so.

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Old 08-08-2013, 10:20 PM   #25
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

I believe it is due to something called "the vocal minority".

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But Captain America: The Winter Soldier wins. Everything. My first born son, even. It's the unicorn of the MCU.
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