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Old 08-31-2013, 06:30 PM   #1
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Default Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

Nolan touched on this darker authoritarian side of Batman in The Dark Knight-- what do you think of Batman as a vehicle for the modern surveillance state?

Will we see bat-drones flying around Gotham? Will Batman have a surveillance satellite? Will this be the crux of the conflict between Batman and Superman?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
At the end of Man of Steel, Superman destroys a surveillance drone, so we know that this Superman stands against such technologies.

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Old 09-02-2013, 12:18 AM   #2
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

Nolan's Batman represented how the world see's America.

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Old 09-02-2013, 12:21 AM   #3
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

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Nolan's Batman represented how the world see's America.
That's right. People think America quits when it's girlfriend dies.

(Joke, people, a joke.)

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Old 09-02-2013, 02:34 PM   #4
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

Well Joke or no Joke... He did quit when his girlfriend died. So its not even that funny. He was a quitter....

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Old 09-29-2013, 12:32 PM   #5
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

Batman could have bat themed ornithopter drones or fixed wing drones (or both).

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Nolan's Batman represented how the world see's America.
Only 1% of America is in the 1%...

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Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
I don't like Batman symbolizing the surveillance (police?) state just yet.

Maybe in a Kingdom Come movie where all the characters are extreme/fully-realized versions of themselves but not in Batman/Superman or a World's Finest movie.

Before Batman is driven to extremes to lock down Gotham completely he's just a lone renegade crusading for justice in a corrupt wasteland.

He's the idealistic rebel who later becomes a hardened dictator. People need to see the full evolution from the beginning, which means hints of draconian/Orwellian beliefs rather than a full display of them.
This Batman has been confirmed to be middle aged and well into his career under the mask.


Last edited by thorstone; 09-29-2013 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 09-30-2013, 05:45 PM   #6
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

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Nolan's Batman represented how the world see's America.
The world sees America as the hero it deserves, but not the one it needs? Or is it the other way around? Honestly, as that movie came out during the Bush years, either way it would be more flattering than the real international image we were then maintaining.

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Old 10-08-2013, 08:46 AM   #7
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

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The world sees America as the hero it deserves, but not the one it needs? Or is it the other way around? Honestly, as that movie came out during the Bush years, either way it would be more flattering than the real international image we were then maintaining.

What do you mean the image 'you' were maintaining "then?" America's image has not gotten any better since then.

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Old 09-02-2013, 02:37 PM   #8
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

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Originally Posted by thorstone View Post
Nolan touched on this darker authoritarian side of Batman in The Dark Knight-- what do you think of Batman as a vehicle for the modern surveillance state?

Will we see bat-drones flying around Gotham? Will Batman have a surveillance satellite? Will this be the crux of the conflict between Batman and Superman?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
At the end of Man of Steel, Superman destroys a surveillance drone, so we know that this Superman stands against such technologies.
What was that satellite for. Good tv reception? :P

I don't like the idea of Batman using drones. I think his ego stands in the way. Also, he'd probably be paranoid of being hacked.

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Old 09-02-2013, 02:41 PM   #9
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Also, he'd probably be paranoid of being hacked.
Batman: "People must never find out my dirty secret... That Wertham was right all along (deletes pictures of bare chested men)"

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Old 09-04-2013, 08:59 AM   #10
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

I don't like Batman symbolizing the surveillance (police?) state just yet.

Maybe in a Kingdom Come movie where all the characters are extreme/fully-realized versions of themselves but not in Batman/Superman or a World's Finest movie.

Before Batman is driven to extremes to lock down Gotham completely he's just a lone renegade crusading for justice in a corrupt wasteland.

He's the idealistic rebel who later becomes a hardened dictator. People need to see the full evolution from the beginning, which means hints of draconian/Orwellian beliefs rather than a full display of them.

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Old 09-29-2013, 12:53 PM   #11
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

I much prefer Frank Miller's anti-authority rebel Batman to Nolan's Right Wing Batman.

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Old 09-30-2013, 11:05 AM   #12
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

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I much prefer Frank Miller's anti-authority rebel Batman to Nolan's Right Wing Batman.
Um, Miller is considered a right wing nut (Randian actually, as I understand it,) and his Batman in TDKR is viewed as the embodiment of his views.

This is one thing I never fully got, regarding this "interpretations" of Nolan's Batman; He's not at all "right wing." He is the clear contrast to the rest of the "1%" in Rises. Not that being considered in the "1%" makes one "right wing."

The "extraordinary rendition" parallel in TDK is certainly relevant to the comparisons with the Nolan/Bale Bat, but this also brings up the HUGE difference between PRIVATE actions, and STATE actions.

Not that an action suddenly becomes moral, or immoral, solely based around whether it is the government committing it, or a private individual.
Kidnapping is still kidnapping, theft is still theft.

The BIGGEST difference between Batman and ANY government wing/party/action is principle. Batman acts on principle, doing his best to never betray what he is fighting for. Batman fights on principle, for justice.
The state is EXACTLY the opposite.

As the Joker says, he truly is incorruptible.

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Old 09-30-2013, 05:48 PM   #13
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

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I much prefer Frank Miller's anti-authority rebel Batman to Nolan's Right Wing Batman.
Miller didn't see Batman as anti-authority. He sees Batman as the ULTIMATE authority. Batman essentially becomes Gotham's dictator at the end of the series until Superman "takes him out." And even then, he goes underground to build up a whole army, waiting until the time is right to take control. In many ways, his Batman is closer to Nolan's Bane than Nolan's Batman. Scary, but true.

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Old 10-10-2013, 02:18 AM   #14
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

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Miller didn't see Batman as anti-authority. He sees Batman as the ULTIMATE authority. Batman essentially becomes Gotham's dictator at the end of the series until Superman "takes him out." And even then, he goes underground to build up a whole army, waiting until the time is right to take control. In many ways, his Batman is closer to Nolan's Bane than Nolan's Batman. Scary, but true.
Bane put the city in a state of chaos and tried to blow it up with a nuclear bomb. You're wrong.

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Old 11-15-2013, 12:58 PM   #15
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Daniel Alter @DAlter007 Follow Can't wait for #BatmanvsSuperman.. #batfleck semi-retired/not speaking to Robin anymore.. Controlling drones from the batcave.

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Old 09-29-2013, 02:26 PM   #16
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Batman looks like a libertarian and Superman looks like a republican that's my thoughts on this.

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Old 09-29-2013, 02:57 PM   #17
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In TDK Returns Batman looks like a fascist i don't know if he's a fascist but he looks like a fascist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtfHyzgNQPA

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Old 09-30-2013, 11:06 AM   #18
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

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Nolan touched on this darker authoritarian side of Batman in The Dark Knight-- what do you think of Batman as a vehicle for the modern surveillance state?

Will we see bat-drones flying around Gotham? Will Batman have a surveillance satellite? Will this be the crux of the conflict between Batman and Superman?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
At the end of Man of Steel, Superman destroys a surveillance drone, so we know that this Superman stands against such technologies.
I don't think we "know" that at all. The only thing we can know for certain is that he is against such being used against HIMSELF.

We MIGHT be able to ASSUME that he is similarly against such being used against the populace in general.

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Old 09-30-2013, 05:42 PM   #19
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

I feel like we've been down this road before...



Oh, poor Lucius Fox. Only a few years away from finding out that Batman was just the beginning...

I actually love parallels and rich subtext in art. And I think Nolan proved many snobs wrong when The Dark Knight proved to be one the most interesting post-9/11 films ever made. However, after watching how clumsily--to the point of being nearly insulting--Goyer and Snyder handled such themes themselves in Man of Steel, complete with Superman shrugging as skyscrapers collapsed and Zod's machine causing planes to crash into buildings...

Yeah, let's not go down there. I'm all for making Batman's methods murky or morally ambiguous. Nolan toyed with it. Frank Miller and Alan Moore fully embraced it (though for different means). Snyder is too tone deaf to pull that off with finesse.

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Old 09-30-2013, 11:30 PM   #20
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However, after watching how clumsily--to the point of being nearly insulting--Goyer and Snyder handled such themes themselves in Man of Steel, complete with Superman shrugging as skyscrapers collapsed and Zod's machine causing planes to crash into buildings...

Yeah, let's not go down there. I'm all for making Batman's methods murky or morally ambiguous. Nolan toyed with it. Frank Miller and Alan Moore fully embraced it (though for different means). Snyder is too tone deaf to pull that off with finesse.
I think you should wait for the sequel before you reserve judgement for how Snyder and Co. handle those sorts of themes.

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Old 10-05-2013, 04:10 PM   #21
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Goyer and Snyder handled such themes themselves in Man of Steel, complete with Superman shrugging as skyscrapers collapsed and Zod's machine causing planes to crash into buildings
What did you expect him to do-- use his magic rebuild-the-wall-of-China powers to stop the buildings from falling?

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I don't think we "know" that at all. The only thing we can know for certain is that he is against such being used against HIMSELF.

We MIGHT be able to ASSUME that he is similarly against such being used against the populace in general.
That would make him a hypocrite. "Freedom is good enough for me but not the slaves."

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Old 10-08-2013, 09:01 AM   #22
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. . .
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I don't think we "know" that at all. The only thing we can know for certain is that he is against such being used against HIMSELF.

We MIGHT be able to ASSUME that he is similarly against such being used against the populace in general.


That would make him a hypocrite. "Freedom is good enough for me but not the slaves."

Yes, but that's exactly the mentality of a HUGE portion of people in america.
Many people COMPLETELY support the use of Drones ("on" ANY "soil") to monitor, and even kill, government labelled "potential threats."

What they refuse to accept is that means they can, and WILL use those same drones to spy on you.

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Old 10-09-2013, 04:00 PM   #23
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

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I feel like we've been down this road before...



Oh, poor Lucius Fox. Only a few years away from finding out that Batman was just the beginning...

I actually love parallels and rich subtext in art. And I think Nolan proved many snobs wrong when The Dark Knight proved to be one the most interesting post-9/11 films ever made. However, after watching how clumsily--to the point of being nearly insulting--Goyer and Snyder handled such themes themselves in Man of Steel, complete with Superman shrugging as skyscrapers collapsed and Zod's machine causing planes to crash into buildings...

Yeah, let's not go down there. I'm all for making Batman's methods murky or morally ambiguous. Nolan toyed with it. Frank Miller and Alan Moore fully embraced it (though for different means). Snyder is too tone deaf to pull that off with finesse.
Excellent post. Totally agree concerning Snyder's capabilities/limitations as a director. Nolan made it look so effortless, alas...

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Old 09-30-2013, 06:20 PM   #24
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

Miller took a heavy conservative stance post 9/11, I still think his Batman works as an anti-authority figure. There's a heavy revolutionary theme in all his works, in DKSA Batman is in full on terrorist mode. Miller uses Batman as a way to shake up the established order, whether it be a crime riddled Gotham or a future dystopia. I guess I see Miller's Batman as a symbol of change, while his Superman is the ultimate protector of the status quo.

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Old 09-30-2013, 07:39 PM   #25
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

The left wing Batman, imo, is a very dangerous character.

Miller had him become the law, his law. If he continued down that path, he would've become like the Punisher.

That's not Batman to me. It's like a corrupt Judge Dredd or something!

He's supposed to abide by the law to keep himself from becoming something like that.
Of course he bends the law, but he doesn't proclaim himself above and beyond it.

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