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Old 09-06-2013, 01:39 PM   #1
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Old 09-06-2013, 01:39 PM   #2
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Old 09-06-2013, 01:39 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by DChero View Post
The first comment was just tongue in cheek, sir.
I know. :cwink:

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I agree that people saying that he needed to kill to learn that it's wrong is not an accurate way of looking at it. I'm not sure why that would be considered as a reason.

In the original version of the script he just got zapped into the Phantom Zone. David [Goyer] and I had long talks about it, and Chris [Nolan] and I talked long about it, and I really feel like we should kill Zod, and I really feel like Superman should kill him. The why of it was for me - I go - if it's truly an origin story, his aversion to killing is unexplained, it's just in his DNA. I felt like we needed him to do something just like him putting on the glasses or going to the Daily Planet, or any of the other things that your sort of seeing for the first time that you realize becomes his sort of his thing. (http://movies.cosmicbooknews.com/content/man-steel-ending-superman-kills-zod#eDqK1B3rFt64ZqvX.99)

The original script to Man of Steel didn’t include Superman killing General Zod to save an innocent family from incineration. In that draft, Zod was sent back into the Phantom Zone and that was that. It was Snyder who pushed for Supes to kill the movie’s big villain, because the hero’s “aversion to killing [was] unexplained.” (http://comicsalliance.com/man-of-steel-christopher-nolan-disagreed-ending-zod-killing/)

Also...

If there were more adventures for our Superman to go on, you’re given this thing where, you don’t know 100 percent what he’s going to do. When you put in stone the concept that he won’t kill, and it’s totally in stone, it really erases an option in the viewer’s mind…you’ll always have in the back of your mind, ‘How far can you push him?’ If he sees Lois get hurt, or his mother get killed, you just made a really mad Superman that we know is capable of some really horrible stuff, if he wants to be. That’s the thing that’s cool about him, in some ways. The idea that he has the frailties of a human emotionally. But you don’t want to get that guy mad. (http://insidemovies.ew.com/2013/06/1...-steel-ending/)

Still can't believe he said that.

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Old 09-06-2013, 01:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 1

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Originally Posted by The Boy Scout View Post
Also...

If there were more adventures for our Superman to go on, you’re given this thing where, you don’t know 100 percent what he’s going to do. When you put in stone the concept that he won’t kill, and it’s totally in stone, it really erases an option in the viewer’s mind…you’ll always have in the back of your mind, ‘How far can you push him?’ If he sees Lois get hurt, or his mother get killed, you just made a really mad Superman that we know is capable of some really horrible stuff, if he wants to be. That’s the thing that’s cool about him, in some ways. The idea that he has the frailties of a human emotionally. But you don’t want to get that guy mad. (http://insidemovies.ew.com/2013/06/1...-steel-ending/)

Still can't believe he said that.
Not so hard to believe if you watch the animated series, read the books or watch some of the movies.

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Old 09-06-2013, 02:21 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
That means if the main character does something which he believes to be right, than the audience is supposed to believe that it is right as well, correct?
Yes.

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What happens when you are telling the story about an adolescent?
Depends.

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What happens when you are telling a story about someone out for revenge?
Depends.

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What happens when you are telling a story about shady people(typical tarantinto protagonists)?
Depends.

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What happens when you are giving hitlers side of things?
Probably not.

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What happens when you are telling the story of a young superhero finding his way...
Depends.

You need to realize that I was speaking generally.

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Most stories aren't about perfect people...
I never said they were.

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The audience can often agree or disagree at their own discretion.
Which I acknowledged. But most people seem to agree that Superman killing Zod was the right thing to do.

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When did the movie say superman made the right decision?
As soon as he did it and saved the entire planet.

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Maybe I should watch it again.
Maybe you should.

Though if you're looking for the film to spell it out for you in an obvious and heavy-handed manner, then I'm afraid you'll be watching it forever.

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Superman doesn't end world hunger even though he can.
He can?

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Superman believes that's the best decision so that means we the audience are supposed to as well right?
You're supposed to, yes. But you don't have to.

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You are suggesting that anything a protagonist does, as long as he thinks he's in the right we as an audience are supposed to sympathize.
Yes.

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There's a difference between sympathizing with the story lead, and the story telling us something is right or wrong.
Typically, the former leads to the latter.

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Apply this to the topic at hand, whether superman feels he did a bad thing in killing a Zod going forward, says little about whether it was right or wrong.
It kind of does.

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If he decides to do different in the future, that won't mean squat when it comes to the reality of the zod decision. It will just mean he doesn't want to kill anymore.
Right.

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Not so hard to believe if you watch the animated series, read the books or watch some of the movies.
Maybe, but that comment rubbed me the wrong way. It almost sounds to me like he wants us to think of Superman as a ticking time bomb or something.

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Old 09-06-2013, 02:57 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by The Boy Scout View Post
Which I acknowledged. But most people seem to agree that Superman killing Zod was the right thing to do.
Who is most people?
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As soon as he did it and saved the entire planet.

Maybe you should.

Though if you're looking for the film to spell it out for you in an obvious and heavy-handed manner, then I'm afraid you'll be watching it forever.

He could save the planet every day by killing lex and all the rest of the bad guys with a neck snap.
It will take more than him "saving the world" for a simpleton like myself to take this as "the right thing to do".

My measure goes beyond is the world saved or not.
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He can?
That and more. Even faster when he employs the help of the League.
Again, the comics.
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Typically, the former leads to the latter.
Conveniently you choose to base your argument on a "typically".
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Right.
Looks like we have our common terms.
This is the point where I quit due to being ahead.
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Maybe, but that comment rubbed me the wrong way. It almost sounds to me like he wants us to think of Superman as a ticking time bomb or something.
That's the problem with the majority of detractors. There are many ways to take many things about this film and the character. Choosing the most drastic seems to go to for some of ya'll.

Captain America can kill at anytime if pushed to it. He's hardly a "ticking time bomb"

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Old 09-06-2013, 01:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 1

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Originally Posted by The Boy Scout View Post
I know.


In the original version of the script he just got zapped into the Phantom Zone. David [Goyer] and I had long talks about it, and Chris [Nolan] and I talked long about it, and I really feel like we should kill Zod, and I really feel like Superman should kill him. The why of it was for me - I go - if it's truly an origin story, his aversion to killing is unexplained, it's just in his DNA. I felt like we needed him to do something just like him putting on the glasses or going to the Daily Planet, or any of the other things that your sort of seeing for the first time that you realize becomes his sort of his thing. (http://movies.cosmicbooknews.com/content/man-steel-ending-superman-kills-zod#eDqK1B3rFt64ZqvX.99)

The original script to Man of Steel didn’t include Superman killing General Zod to save an innocent family from incineration. In that draft, Zod was sent back into the Phantom Zone and that was that. It was Snyder who pushed for Supes to kill the movie’s big villain, because the hero’s “aversion to killing [was] unexplained.” (http://comicsalliance.com/man-of-steel-christopher-nolan-disagreed-ending-zod-killing/)

Also...

If there were more adventures for our Superman to go on, you’re given this thing where, you don’t know 100 percent what he’s going to do. When you put in stone the concept that he won’t kill, and it’s totally in stone, it really erases an option in the viewer’s mind…you’ll always have in the back of your mind, ‘How far can you push him?’ If he sees Lois get hurt, or his mother get killed, you just made a really mad Superman that we know is capable of some really horrible stuff, if he wants to be. That’s the thing that’s cool about him, in some ways. The idea that he has the frailties of a human emotionally. But you don’t want to get that guy mad. (http://insidemovies.ew.com/2013/06/1...-steel-ending/)

Still can't believe he said that.
I knew about the original ending, and I agree that it was anticlimactic. That's why I put the update in earlier to better explain what I was discussing.

The thing is, Superman is capable of doing some terrible stuff physically. I believe that's the point of what you have in bold. It's not about making him into a bad person. If that's the impression that you got from watching the movie, then I don't know what to tell you. It's not a common opinion.

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Old 09-06-2013, 02:12 PM   #8
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 1

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I knew about the original ending, and I agree that it was anticlimactic. That's why I put the update in earlier to better explain what I was discussing.
You said you weren't sure where people were getting the idea that Superman needed to kill to learn that killing was wrong. There's your answer.

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The thing is, Superman is capable of doing some terrible stuff physically.
Sure. But we know that he would never do any of that stuff because of his moral compass. Snyder is basically saying that this is a Superman who is capable of anything when he's mad and that it's not necessarily unlikely that he'll kill again. And if you're okay with that, that's fine.

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It's not about making him into a bad person.
I never said it was.

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Old 09-06-2013, 02:19 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by The Boy Scout View Post
You said you weren't sure where people were getting the idea that Superman needed to kill to learn that killing was wrong. There's your answer.



Sure. But we know that he would never do any of that stuff because of his moral compass. Snyder is basically saying that this is a Superman who is capable of anything when he's mad and that it's not necessarily unlikely that he'll kill again. And if you're okay with that, that's fine.



I never said it was.
I'm not going to go through the point-by-point structure here. There isn't a connection between some people's belief that Superman needs to kill to know that it's wrong and Superman killing Zod to save people. One is a lame justification and another has to do with telling a compelling story.

You're paraphrasing what you believe Snyder's message is. That's not how I read it. I read it as him strictly talking about the physical damage that Superman could do, not that he can't control himself. I don't believe that his moral compass was off in the movie. The way that the story presented the situation, I found it to e a powerful ended but in writing and with the performances.

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Old 09-06-2013, 01:48 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by The Boy Scout View Post
Superman is the main character. If he believes that what he did was wrong, then the audience is supposed to believe it as well.
That means if the main character does something which he believes to be right, than the audience is supposed to believe that it is right as well, correct?
What happens when you are telling the story about an adolescent?
What happens when you are telling a story about someone out for revenge?
What happens when you are telling a story about shady people(typical tarantinto protagonists)?
What happens when you are giving hitlers side of things?
What happens when you are telling the story of a young superhero finding his way...

Most stories aren't about perfect people, they tend to often be about people doing what they think is best. The audience can often agree or disagree at their own discretion. Ben Affleck's Gone Baby Gone, fun movie, especially the ending.

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Wow. Maybe you should watch it again, then.
When did the movie say superman made the right decision? I must have missed that part. I've been firmly on the side that he made the best decision given the circumstance but I had no idea there was a point there near the end(I assume) when the movie specifically said he did. Maybe I should watch it again.

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I'd quit while you're ahead.
I'd rather you just try your best.
It was a simple question.
Superman doesn't end world hunger even though he can. Superman believes that's the best decision so that means we the audience are supposed to as well right?
Cause I don't.

Quote:
And again: Superman, being the main character, is supposed to be the one we sympathize with and we are supposed to believe that the decisions he makes are the right ones. We don't have to agree, of course; but we're supposed to.
You are suggesting that anything a protagonist does, as long as he thinks he's in the right we as an audience are supposed to sympathize.

There's a difference between sympathizing with the story lead, and the story telling us something is right or wrong.
This was almost the point of that 3 little pigs story told from the Bad Bad Wolf's perspective.

Apply this to the topic at hand, whether superman feels he did a bad thing in killing a Zod going forward, says little about whether it was right or wrong. What's right and wrong will never change, how he feels and how we sympathize will. Don't see a problem with that. If he decides to do different in the future, that won't mean squat when it comes to the reality of the zod decision. It will just mean he doesn't want to kill anymore.

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Old 09-06-2013, 03:06 PM   #11
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Old 09-06-2013, 03:17 PM   #12
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Stop all this positive thinking. Only negativity is allowed in here.
When it comes to Superman.....Make mine CAVILL
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Old 09-06-2013, 03:31 PM   #13
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At least we're playing nice.

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Old 09-06-2013, 03:40 PM   #14
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

You guys do realise this isn't a Man of Steel discussion thread right? Either you liked the ending or you didn't, can we please talk about the actual point of the thread please, the Batman/Superman movie.

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Old 09-06-2013, 03:48 PM   #15
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

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You guys do realise this isn't a Man of Steel discussion thread right? Either you liked the ending or you didn't, can we please talk about the actual point of the thread please, the Batman/Superman movie.

Actually the point of the thread is an open discussion on both characters.

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Old 09-06-2013, 04:10 PM   #16
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I dunno. This is the quote: Snyder and Goyer revealed that the original version of the script had General Zod being sent back into the Phantom Zone. “But David, Chris and I had long talks about it, and I said that I really feel like we should kill Zod, and that Superman should kill him,” said Snyder. “The ‘Why?’ of it for me was that if was truly an origin story, his aversion to killing is unexplained…"

EDIT: Here's a longer version: “I guess for me–and in the original version of the script he just got zapped into the Phantom Zone–David and I had long talks about it and Chris and I talked long about it and it was like, ‘I really think we should kill Zod and I really think Superman should kill him,’” Snyder explained. “And the why of it was, for me, that if it’s truly an origin story, his aversion to killing is unexplained. It’s just in his DNA. I felt like we needed him to do something, just like him putting on the glasses or going to the Daily Planet or any of the other things that you’re sort of seeing for the first time that you realize will then become his thing. I felt like, if we can find a way of making it impossible for him–like Kobayashi Maru, totally no way out–I felt like that could also make you go, ‘Okay, this is the why of him not killing ever again, right?’ He’s basically obliterated his entire people and his culture and he is responsible for it and he’s just like, ‘How could I kill ever again?’”

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Old 09-06-2013, 04:12 PM   #17
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My real problem (in terms of adaptation) is an iteration of Superman who willingly kills is not a good iteration of the character, as Grant Morrison said "Batman fights death, Superman fights the impossible" it's central to their characters.

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Old 09-07-2013, 12:31 AM   #18
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My real problem (in terms of adaptation) is an iteration of Superman who willingly kills is not a good iteration of the character, as Grant Morrison said "Batman fights death, Superman fights the impossible" it's central to their characters.
He did because he had no choice... He chose the family. We saw the reaction that Superman won't do that again and will search the best option... Snyder himself said that...

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Old 09-07-2013, 08:47 AM   #19
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He did because he had no choice... He chose the family. We saw the reaction that Superman won't do that again and will search the best option... Snyder himself said that...
That has no relevance to my point of "Batman fights death, Superman fights the impossible", because..... Superman can do the impossible!

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Old 09-07-2013, 11:14 AM   #20
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That has no relevance to my point of "Batman fights death, Superman fights the impossible", because..... Superman can do the impossible!
Maybe in All Star Comics but not on day one.
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Expectations for this character seem to be based on the breadth of his career.
Seems fickle imo.

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Old 09-07-2013, 05:32 PM   #21
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Maybe in All Star Comics but not on day one.
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Expectations for this character seem to be based on the breadth of his career.
Seems fickle imo.
Yes on day one, read Action Comics #9. One of the best single issues of Superman ever, and it deals in a world where Superman isn't real, per se, and is just an idea, a character or as he is referred to in story "made up messiah". It also deals with what happens when people who only want to make a mass appeal version of the character, and create a brand over anything else and how it pollutes the essence of him.

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Old 09-06-2013, 04:27 PM   #22
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

It's from the Empire interview. Here's the rest of the quote. I can see where you're getting the idea that this is meant to be the ultimate catalyst, but I don't take this as a primary reason (if that makes sense). He also cites the original ending being lackluster, puts a lot of story into Clark's parents (all of them) and there's the idea that adds to Zod's character, the "death by cop" quote.

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“The ‘Why?’ of it for me was that if was truly an origin story, his aversion to killing is unexplained… I wanted to create a scenario where Superman, either he’s going to see [Metropolis' citizens] chopped in half, or he’s gotta do what he’s gotta do.”

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Old 09-06-2013, 04:41 PM   #23
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It's from the Empire interview. Here's the rest of the quote. I can see where you're getting the idea that this is meant to be the ultimate catalyst, but I don't take this as a primary reason (if that makes sense).
Not to be rude, but...it doesn't. I mean...it's right there for you to read.

Quote:
He also cites the original ending being lackluster...
They could've easily rewritten it to make it more satisfactory, but without having Superman kill him.

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puts a lot of story into Clark's parents (all of them)
Sorry if you think I'm being intentionally obtuse, but what do they have to do with anything?

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...and there's the idea that adds to Zod's character, the "death by cop" quote.
That was just icing on the cake.

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Old 09-06-2013, 04:41 PM   #24
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

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It's from the Empire interview. Here's the rest of the quote. I can see where you're getting the idea that this is meant to be the ultimate catalyst, but I don't take this as a primary reason (if that makes sense). He also cites the original ending being lackluster, puts a lot of story into Clark's parents (all of them) and there's the idea that adds to Zod's character, the "death by cop" quote.
Funny enough Zod never attemped to kill any humans up until that family in the train station.

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Old 09-06-2013, 04:49 PM   #25
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Funny enough Zod never attemped to kill any humans up until that family in the train station.
So I guess him destroying most of the people in Metropolis with Black Zero didn't count then huh?

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