"...a man who is older and wiser than Clark Kent": Does this not worry anyone else?

[skaldicpoet9]

I am a pretty open-minded person. I am not one of the Zack Snyder detractors. I actually really loved Man of Steel. It was the Superman movie that I had always wanted to see. Sure it wasn't perfect, and there could have been a bit more "lightness" but overall I think it was a great interpretation of a modern-day Superman.

However, Superman vs. Batman (ugh, such a bad title) has me worried. Ever since the initial revelation I have been a little worried. The Dark Knight Returns quote that was read before the announcement struck me as an odd quote to use for a Batman/Superman team-up movie.

Of course they said that they aren't doing an adaptation, they are just using the quote as inspiration for the feel of the movie. The thing is, this is a quote that carries a lot of weight and history with it. In the Dark Knight Returns Clark and Bruce have a lifetime of history behind them. There is a reason why Batman is slightly antagonistic towards Supes.

Although, this isn't the problem either. The real thing that worries me is this quote:

"Ben has the acting chops to create a layered portrayal of a man who is older and wiser than Clark Kent and bears the scars of a seasoned crime fighter, but retain the charm that the world sees in billionaire Bruce Wayne. I can't wait to work with him".

This worries me tremendously. I don't mind that Batman and Superman don't exactly see eye to eye in this movie. There are plenty of reasons why Batman could distrust Superman, and Batman is already inherently distrusting of most people anyways. The problem is that they are seemingly painting a version of Batman that is someone that has more years on Superman. I think this undermines the fact that Batman and Superman in the comics are generally considered equals, at least in terms of intellect and wisdom.

I think that it is going to be a big balancing act if this movie can pull off having Batman in a Superman sequel, without Batman upstaging Superman in his own sequel. People already aren't incredibly keen on Superman and I just don't think it is fair to cast Superman as this young, inexperienced boy next to a grizzled, old Batman.

What do you guys think?

[Bathead]

I think you're over-reacting.

[DA_Champion]

When it comes to this movie, we should hope for the best but expect the worst.

[TheFlamingCoco]

Originally Posted by DA_Champion

When it comes to this movie, we should hope for the best but expect the worst.

This.

I can only see a number of outcomes.

It's a Superman/Batman movie, rather then a true sequel.
Thus, it's more of a stand-alone and doesn't develop its characters as much.
Or, it's a true sequel, which happens to feature Batman (optimal, IMHO)

There are several routes that I think will lead into a good movie.

• Goyer and Snyder learn from their mistakes
• Affleck "fixes" Goyer's script
• Snyder encourages more scenes straight out of the comics.
• They both ease up on the seriousness.

This can lead to a movie that is fun to watch and less demanding of criticism. The more a movie is viewed as a big-scale drama, the more it will be held to that standard.

• Jonah signs on and 'fixes' Snyder/Goyer's script.

• Goyer looks at Zack's stuff more critically, and this motivates him to work harder on his own part of the script.

And they get a better editor

Or Zack decides to do the Last Photograph and leave Affleck with MOS2

[The Question]

I don't think they need to ease up on the seriousness, they just need to add a little bit more levity in addition to it. Forget feeling depressed or overwhelmed, having a bit of fun and comedy helps develop characters and helps make the audience like and care about them.

[Project862006]

Originally Posted by The Question

I don't think they need to ease up on the seriousness, they just need to add a little bit more levity in addition to it. Forget feeling depressed or overwhelmed, having a bit of fun and comedy helps develop characters and helps make the audience like and care about them.

the wolverine is the best example of a film that is dark and serious yet also has some levity to it but doesn't become a comedy

i dont want some film like thor was where it desperately wanted some comedy so they gave us a darcy

[Tempest]

Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco

This.

I can only see a number of outcomes.

It's a Superman/Batman movie, rather then a true sequel.
Thus, it's more of a stand-alone and doesn't develop its characters as much.
Or, it's a true sequel, which happens to feature Batman (optimal, IMHO)

There are several routes that I think will lead into a good movie.

• Goyer and Snyder learn from their mistakes
• Affleck "fixes" Goyer's script
• Snyder encourages more scenes straight out of the comics.
• They both ease up on the seriousness.

This can lead to a movie that is fun to watch and less demanding of criticism. The more a movie is viewed as a big-scale drama, the more it will be held to that standard.

• Jonah signs on and 'fixes' Snyder/Goyer's script.

• Goyer looks at Zack's stuff more critically, and this motivates him to work harder on his own part of the script.

And they get a better editor

Or Zack decides to do the Last Photograph and leave Affleck with MOS2

Catch up on your comics, love. There's plenty of scenes from MOS that were taken directly from comic books.

-- The battle of Smallville (although that was done by a kryptonite-enhanced Doomsday) where the town was leveled.

-- Pretty much the entire plot of Zod searching for Clark, his "You are not alone" speech, his attack on Metroplis, and the ensuing battle are near-direct replicas from "Earth One" Superman.

-- The idea of Clark being bullied, and a loner, is from "Earth One" Superman.

-- Jor-El's speech to Clark about what he can accomplish for humans is taken from "All-Star" Superman.

-- "Can't I just keep pretending to be your son?" "You are my son!" is taken from another comic book that I can't recall off the top of my head.

And those are just the ones I can recall at this very moment. I'm certain there are more.

.....

Anyway, as for the quote, I'm a little concerned.

I know that the most common error with writing Batman is a tendency to over-compensate his character since he doesn't have "special" powers. We end up with a Bat-god scenario, where he's always right, always does everything right, and he always wins.

Two of my favorite comics are the Superman/Batman Annuals 1 and 2, where the guys are...not super friendly with each other. At one point (Annual #2) , they're 'discussing' things, and Bruce tells off Clark that he's wasting his time playing a reporter and doing charity work, when he should be fighting crime full time, and Clark points out that Bruce could use his wealth and privilege to do more than to dress up like a rodent.

They're both right; they're both wrong. By the end of the book, Clark has learned that he could be a hero even without his powers, and Bruce has learned that he misjudged Clark as a person.

I don't need an exact replica of that situation, but I would love for the film to follow that route. That way neither one of them looks like a complete moron.

[Dusty_Lane]

Truthfully, I love the aspect of this Batman being "older and wiser" than Clark. Perhaps that is nothing more than the biased Batfan in me talking, but nevertheless Bruce has always appeared to be slightly older than Clark anyway. It just feels right that Batman would have a few years head start on Superman when you stop and think about it. Superman should be the inspiration for all of the other "superpowered" heroes that come afterwards. However, one thing we see at the end of MOS is that Kal's abit cocky.... I think Bruce is the perfect mentor in keeping him honest. A sort of "Who guards the guardians?" type of role. Kal probably feels that he's a complete indestructible force when stacked up against mere earthlings. Both Bruce and Lex are going to give him an education that even gods can die at the hands of human beings. That said in regards to the age, we're only talking about a decade inbetween them which isn't that long to honest. Most people wouldn't consider someone ten years older in the "fatherly" range. That's more of a twenty year age difference.

[skaldicpoet9]

I don't know how I really feel about Batman being a mentor to Superman. I have grown up with these characters being friends and equals. One didn't have more knowledge than the other. Different ways of looking at a situation, sure, but I never really saw Bats as being wiser than Superman. I think it would be an odd dynamic to have Superman being instructed by Batman. There is a different dynamic that exists between mentor/protege rather than partner/partner. This is my primary concern, really. It just doesn't seem right to have Superman and Batman not on equal footing.

[Shikamaru]

Originally Posted by skaldicpoet9

I don't know how I really feel about Batman being a mentor to Superman. I have grown up with these characters being friends and equals. One didn't have more knowledge than the other. Different ways of looking at a situation, sure, but I never really saw Bats as being wiser than Superman. I think it would be an odd dynamic to have Superman being instructed by Batman. There is a different dynamic that exists between mentor/protege rather than partner/partner. This is my primary concern, really. It just doesn't seem right to have Superman and Batman not on equal footing.

This.

I really hate the idea of a Batman older and wiser by about a decade next to a Year One Superman. The news that they were going that route is the main factor that killed any excitement I had for this film (though I didn't have that much to begin with). It really bugs me and just can't get over it no matter how well I see it executed. What I always loved about the Batman/Superman dynamic is the fact that they were equals and like brothers to each other - twin brothers to be specific (no older brother/younger brother dynamic). These men walked on totally different paths and became the heroes they are at around the same time. Then they grew together as their careers progressed through the JL years. All of that is gone when you put a rookie Year One Superman next to "An older, tired, and seasoned Batman". We are not talking a 2 or 3 age gap between them here. We are talking around an entire decade.

In a way I think this idea will make both Superman and Batman look bad.
-Superman will look more like Robin next to Batman instead of more like his equal.
-Batman will look bad by the time Justice League rolls around. I assume the rest of the JL will be closer to Superman's age. I really hate the idea that Batman needsan entire decade ahead of his teammates just to be on par with their young rookie versions. If that is true, what does that tell you about this Batman when he was young and in his early career? It means he was as weak as Nolan's Batman. Maybe not as weak, but still below your average Year One version of Batman. Only difference is he has more experience this time.

[Project862006]

batman and superman should not be on same intellectual level

clark was trained on a farm

[storyteller]

The do it in the comics when talking about their first meetings. Superman at the beginning sees the world in black and white. He also has some ego about his powers. His interaction with Batman teaches him to see the grey and have more faith the the potential of man.

At the same time

Bruce get's to be pulled out of his darkness so that the The Dark Knight Return Batman doesn't happen. Being equals doesn't mean thinking the same. Just because you are smart doesn't mean you have nothing to learn. Maybe Batman shows him that something like Zod need not happen again.

[smallville fan]

Originally Posted by Project862006

batman and superman should not be on same intellectual level

clark was trained on a farm

This.

This Bruce Wayne has probably seen a lot and fought off many bad guys by this point. Of course he should know a thing or too more than Clark.

However at this point in both of their careers(especially Superman's) there will be some fundamental differences I see them both clashing over where one is right about something and the other is not and vice-versa.

One example is how they would handle situations where a villain is wrecking havoc somewhere and lives would be in danger. You see, Batman would approach it from a "look before you leap" standpoint. He would be analytical about it, he'd be the type to come up with an strategic solution to take out the bad guy while sitting in his Batcave in Gotham or within the Batmobile or wherever. However with Superman, he "leaps before he looks" in a single bound and perhaps thinks faster than a speeding bullet in that situation. He'll go in all guns blazing and try to take out said bad guy quickly and save said person ASAP.

Neither method is correct and neither method is wrong. With Bruce's method, more people are likely to die because he didn't show up on time but the bad guy would eventually be taken out with a great cost(think everything Jason Todd says in Batman: Under the Red Hood). With Clark on the other hand, he'll be more likely to fall into traps and get someone or himself hurt when his abilities are used against him, a good example of this which made me realize this was Injustice: Gods Among Us, the comic. In the first couple of chapters, Joker kidnaps Lois and when Superman goes to save her he breathes in Scarecrow's Kryptonite-Infused Fear-gas and I hope most of you know how that turns out, it's very sad for Superman.

For those who know what I'm talking about, what would've happened if it was Batman who walked in? I think things would've gone very differently. However this characteristic isn't always a bad thing. Given the level of opponents Superman faces who mostly have equal or greater strength and power set like Zod, Darkseid, Doomsday etc you gotta do what you gotta do before lives are taken.

I see them clashing over stuff like this. Bruce would tell Clark to step back and see the bigger picture and understand what your enemy is trying to do, however Clark would tell Bruce to grow a pear and get away from the computer and actually do something for once.

In the context of the movies, after what went down in Man of Steel, I think it'll be Bruce initially who's the wiser one telling Clark he needs to be more strategic etc and then later towards the end of the movie, Clark would be the one telling Bruce to get out of his chair and take action.

[tomoe]

From the way Superman was portrayed in MOS, being 'wiser' than him really isn't saying much.

[Masone]

Originally Posted by tomoe

From the way Superman was portrayed in MOS, being 'wiser' than him really isn't saying much.

That would imply that we already know his level of intellect. They just didn't have the scenes to display it in the movie, like Batman's detective skills in Nolan's series. But it's not to say that it isn't there.

[Loki882]

No, you do not "hope for the best, but expect the worst" that's just absurd. CB fans are some of the most knee-jerk pessimistic people that I've encountered. As for the quote, no, it doesn't bother me at all. If Clark were already established, there'd be nowhere for his character to go, which is boring.

[Project862006]

ben affleck hardly looks old lol

[smallville fan]

Originally Posted by Shikamaru

This.

I really hate the idea of a Batman older and wiser by about a decade next to a Year One Superman. The news that they were going that route is the main factor that killed any excitement I had for this film (though I didn't have that much to begin with). It really bugs me and just can't get over it no matter how well I see it executed. What I always loved about the Batman/Superman dynamic is the fact that they were equals and like brothers to each other - twin brothers to be specific (no older brother/younger brother dynamic). These men walked on totally different paths and became the heroes they are at around the same time. Then they grew together as their careers progressed through the JL years. All of that is gone when you put a rookie Year One Superman next to "An older, tired, and seasoned Batman". We are not talking a 2 or 3 age gap between them here. We are talking around an entire decade.

In a way I think this idea will make both Superman and Batman look bad.
-Superman will look more like Robin next to Batman instead of more like his equal.
-Batman will look bad by the time Justice League rolls around. I assume the rest of the JL will be closer to Superman's age. I really hate the idea that Batman needsan entire decade ahead of his teammates just to be on par with their young rookie versions. If that is true, what does that tell you about this Batman when he was young and in his early career? It means he was as weak as Nolan's Batman. Maybe not as weak, but still below your average Year One version of Batman. Only difference is he has more experience this time.

I wouldn't be too worried about that. The super powers would definitely set him above the Robin level for sure. Clark would prove himself equal by the end of the movie I bet.

As for Batman being older and experienced, it should be considered a Benefit. Batman should be given something to set himself apart from the other god-like heroes of the Justice League, who are all probably Superman's level of being a rookie, age and experience in fighting bad guys, and being a detective etc seems like the best. Tired and weary could simply mean he's fed up and wants to retire, until a young upstart by the name of Superman inspires him to keep up the good fight. Look at it like this, which Batman cartoon do you prefer?

The young Batman who's a couple of years into his career from "The Batman" animated series



or

The older Batman from "Batman: TAS" who clearly has been doing it longer

[Dusty_Lane]

Originally Posted by smallville fan

I wouldn't be too worried about that. The super powers would definitely set him above the Robin level for sure. Clark would prove himself equal by the end of the movie I bet.

As for Batman being older and experienced, it should be considered a Benefit. Batman should be given something to set himself apart from the other god-like heroes of the Justice League, who are all probably Superman's level of being a rookie, age and experience in fighting bad guys, and being a detective etc seems like the best. Tired and weary could simply mean he's fed up and wants to retire, until a young upstart by the name of Superman inspires him to keep up the good fight. Look at it like this, which Batman cartoon do you prefer?

The young Batman who's a couple of years into his career from "The Batman" animated series



or

The older Batman from "Batman: TAS" who clearly has been doing it longer

I'm definitely a BTAS kid! That said I'm 30, so it's rather obvious right. lol! When BTAS premiered we were looking at an approximately 35 year old Batman who'd been on the job for about 10 years already. In some episodes he looks "tired and weary"....case in point the episode I Am The Night.



In the Robin's Reckoning it's revealed that Dick Grayson has been under Bruce's care for 9 years. There's a 10 year gap between the flashback in Mask of the Phantasm and present time.



I've been hoping that the Ben Affleck Batman of Snyder's new DC cinematic universe takes inspiration from BTAS and the Arkham games. Also let's not forget that the New 52 has also made reference to Batman getting a five year head start on the rest of the Justice League members operating in the shadows as an urban legend.

[Shikamaru]

Originally Posted by LEVITIKUZ

Affleck could pull it off. Besides no one minded the Batman in BTAS & Arkham Games was around 35-40ish.

Superman should look younger because he's an alien and maybe how he ages is different.

Again, people are taking this argument out of context. There is no problem with a 35-40ish Batman as long as Superman is closer to his age, which wasn't a problem in BTAS and the Arkham games. The issue lies in the two-digit age gap between the two, not in the idea of Batman being 35-40ish by itself. If Superman was also 40ish, it wouldn't be a problem.

Originally Posted by Dusty_Lane

I'm definitely a BTAS kid! That said I'm 30, so it's rather obvious right. lol! When BTAS premiered we were looking at an approximately 35 year old Batman who'd been on the job for about 10 years already. In some episodes he looks "tired and weary"....case in point the episode I Am The Night.



In the Robin's Reckoning it's revealed that Dick Grayson has been under Bruce's care for 9 years. There's a 10 year gap between the flashback in Mask of the Phantasm and present time.



I've been hoping that the Ben Affleck Batman of Snyder's new DC cinematic universe takes inspiration from BTAS and the Arkham games. Also let's not forget that the New 52 has also made reference to Batman getting a five year head start on the rest of the Justice League members operating in the shadows as an urban legend.

Batman wasn't 35 in Batman TAS. Oldest he was in the show is early 30's (not counting The New Batman Adventures). He also started his Batman career at a younger age than Comic Book Batman (early 20's as opposed to mid 20's). By the time Superman is introduced, they're still around the same age. Bruce might be a bit older than Clark by a few years, but the age gap between them isn't too huge. We are talking of an age gap of around 10 years in between Affleck's Batman and Cavill's Superman based on everything we've heard so far.

As for the New 52, you never want to source the New 52's timeline in an argument because the timeline makes no sense at all (that's a topic for another time though). Though even in the New 52, a 5-year head start is still not that big of a difference compared to an entire-decade head start. You're mixing up more years of experience with more years of being alive. Batman might have 5 years of experience on Superman in the New 52 but the age gap between them is even smaller than that. When the Justice League formed, Batman was 30 and Superman was 27 (someone on the book confirmed it; can't remember who). That's a difference of 3 years. Again, small differences like that are no biggie.

[smallville fan]

Originally Posted by Dusty_Lane

I'm definitely a BTAS kid! That said I'm 30, so it's rather obvious right. lol! When BTAS premiered we were looking at an approximately 35 year old Batman who'd been on the job for about 10 years already. In some episodes he looks "tired and weary"....case in point the episode I Am The Night.



In the Robin's Reckoning it's revealed that Dick Grayson has been under Bruce's care for 9 years. There's a 10 year gap between the flashback in Mask of the Phantasm and present time.



I've been hoping that the Ben Affleck Batman of Snyder's new DC cinematic universe takes inspiration from BTAS and the Arkham games. Also let's not forget that the New 52 has also made reference to Batman getting a five year head start on the rest of the Justice League members operating in the shadows as an urban legend.

Exactly what I've been saying.

[Shikamaru]

Originally Posted by smallville fan

I wouldn't be too worried about that. The super powers would definitely set him above the Robin level for sure. Clark would prove himself equal by the end of the movie I bet.

That's the problem. It's a lose/lose situation. If you really play up the "older and wiser" angle, you will make Superman look more like a Robin. If they become equals at the end, you will make Batman look bad. Why does Batman need an entire decade of experience to be equal to a young rookie Superman that just started out? That's really insulting to Batman IMO (I know it technically can't be since Batman is not a real person but you get my point). Superman and Batman were equals from around the very beginning of their careers, which they started at around the same time, and then they grew together up to their weary/tired/seasoned years and they were still equals even then.

If Batman needs to have 10 years of being older and of more experience, what does that say about Superman in 10 years from MOS? The current Batman would be useless to him. By the logic of an "older/weary/tired" Batman being an equal to a young rookie Superman, the only reason why he is on par with him is due to the age gap. And I find that really disrespectful to the character of Batman.

As for Batman being older and experienced, it should be considered a Benefit. Batman should be given something to set himself apart from the other god-like heroes of the Justice League, who are all probably Superman's level of being a rookie, age and experience in fighting bad guys, and being a detective etc seems like the best. Tired and weary could simply mean he's fed up and wants to retire, until a young upstart by the name of Superman inspires him to keep up the good fight.

You don't have to give Batman anything to set him apart from the rest; he already has it. The genius intellect and detective skills are not a product of him doing this for so many years but of his motivations and mental training he received prior to becoming Batman. Since the Modern Age of superheroes started in the DC universe, Batman has always been the smartest man in the room despite being the same age as Superman and the rest.

Again, it goes back to the idea that the only reason Batman can survive on the JL is due to the age gap.

Look at it like this, which Batman cartoon do you prefer?
The young Batman who's a couple of years into his career from "The Batman" animated series



or

The older Batman from "Batman: TAS" who clearly has been doing it longer

No offense, but you've brought a horrible analogy.

Batman: TAS is a show that gave it its all while The Batman was an intentionally dumbed down & poorly written Batman show that made Batman look like an idiot half the time. There are so many problems that show has that it's ridiculous, and a younger Batman is not one of those problems. If you want to argue that a young Batman simply can't work in the JL, you should source a Batman product that at least put half an effort into itself, which The Batman didn't do.

Plus, Batman is not that old in Batman: TAS. In fact, he is only a couple of years older than Batman was in The Batman (who was around 27/28). TAS' Batman is somewhere in his late 20's to early 30's; he just started his career as Batman a few years earlier than Comic Book Batman did and that gives off the impression that he is older than he really is. Plus, TAS Batman was still around the same age as TAS Superman. If there was an age gap between them, it would be very small thus the twin-brotherly relationship was still there. Not the same thing as Batfleck who is older than Superman by 10 years and has more experience than him by 10 years.

To let you know, I have zero problems with an older more seasoned Batman. In fact, it is the type of Batman I prefer. I grew up mainly with that Batman my whole life. What I do have a problem with is making Superman or Batman older than the other one by around a two-digit number. I wouldn't mind the idea of an older Batman if this universe's Superman was older too. But since this universe's Superman is young, Batman should also be younger even if he's been doing this for a few years already.

[herolee10]

I remember watching the episode where Superman appeared in "The Batman"; wow, they really emasculated him in favor for making Batman look better.

[TheNextNolan22]

It doesn't bother me in the slightest. It kind of gives off a Buddy Cop-feel to it. A younger rookie with a more seasoned, wiser veteran.

[DA_Champion]

Move over Justin Bieber, Henry Cavill has taken your role.