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View Poll Results: How do you feel about Goyer writing the script for the first Superman Batman film
His work on MOS was VERY GOOD. He'll do GREAT. 27 20.45%
His work on MOS was OKAY. I am Skecptical. 30 22.73%
His work on MOS was POOR. I feel dread. 32 24.24%
He NEEDS Affleck's help and guidance to deliver a great script 43 32.58%
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-24-2013, 10:59 PM   #1
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Old 10-24-2013, 11:00 PM   #2
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:00 PM   #3
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

No, I'm actually acting like if the Donner films didn't exist, and to a greater point if this was reviewed objectively and not in relation to preconceptions we'd be seeing a different reception. I do assert that the donner films continuity have the greatest impact going in to his era given the demographic and the piece of media most celebrated in american cinema, modern or otherwise.

This tangent is interesting. To compare our modern audiences' recollection of the 60's colour batman(often spoofed in popular media, music et all) with our modern audiences recollection of the 50's black and white Reeves show(personally don't remember the music) is something. I know the modern TAS was compared to the 40's TAS but I'm not so sure how much more people think that as opposed to the donner picture as it pertains to mos. Who's to say.

Still, you won't get an argument from me about those installments having at least some bearing on some people. I do have my suspicions about Mara, she seemingly graduated and started working around the same time I did. If she's my age, I find myself wondering just which superman she was citing in her comparisons. But that's conjecture.

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Old 10-24-2013, 11:35 PM   #4
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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No, I'm actually acting like if the Donner films didn't exist, and to a greater point if this was reviewed objectively and not in relation to preconceptions we'd be seeing a different reception. I do assert that the donner films continuity have the greatest impact going in to his era given the demographic and the piece of media most celebrated in american cinema, modern or otherwise.

This tangent is interesting. To compare our modern audiences' recollection of the 60's colour batman(often spoofed in popular media, music et all) with our modern audiences recollection of the 50's black and white Reeves show(personally don't remember the music) is something. I know the modern TAS was compared to the 40's TAS but I'm not so sure how much more people think that as opposed to the donner picture as it pertains to mos. Who's to say.
I see your point about the importance of objective reviewing for movies with a huge nostalgic factor, but how does one actually excise the Donner films entirely from the discussion? The success of S:TM prompted Singer to recreate the magic in Returns, whose less-than-successful reception prompted the making of MoS. In short, no S:TM, no MoS.

I don't think you can use a ceteris paribus reasoning here, that if S:TM didn't exist, all other things being equal, MoS will be reviewed more objectively.


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Old 10-24-2013, 11:25 PM   #5
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2


zack synder's superman? lol

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Old 10-24-2013, 11:55 PM   #6
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

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zack synder's superman? lol
The sad reality is how it actually went down in truth.
-From the begging aspect(don't remember stamp asking for anything short of mercy)
-The present danger aspect(powers vs no powers)
-The secondary begging aspect(superman)
-The after the fact reaction (Reeve vs Cavil)

Still, I have little bout that's the way people see things. A shame really.

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Old 10-25-2013, 12:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

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zack synder's superman? lol
The Superman you know and love sends powerless villians down a chasm and grins while they die.

Or is he actually talking about the comics

It's funny, but I don't see people get nearly as defensive about other characters as Superman.

If someone is forced to kill as a last resort, does that mean that he/she is a bad person?

I don't think so. I think it was too early to have Superman kill before many audiences had a chance to invest emotionally in the character over multiple movies.

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Old 10-24-2013, 11:44 PM   #8
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

people should compare MOS to STM, Cavill to Reeve.

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Old 10-25-2013, 01:56 AM   #9
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

What....

It's the complete opposite of that.

That's a shame.

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Old 10-25-2013, 07:11 AM   #10
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

The funny thing is that "The Superman you know and love" is not described as "Donner Superman" or "Reeve Superman".

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Old 10-26-2013, 09:53 AM   #11
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

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The funny thing is that "The Superman you know and love" is not described as "Donner Superman" or "Reeve Superman".
When you have a point to make(to fans in particular) why miss out on the opportunity to use suggestive/manipulative epithets.
Moreover, donner superman I suppose would be a bad example here, for obvious reasons.
Lastly, I suppose not everyone is enamored with the Donner superman, he can make a greater point with the epithets.

Your point isn't lost on me, but those three elements just outlined are what they are.

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Old 10-25-2013, 07:27 AM   #12
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

The Superman fanbase said that Superman Returns was a bad movie because Superman "didn't land a single punch". We then got MoS. Now, the Superman fanbase is saying that MoS is a bad movie because "Superman killed". I don't think think that this is a correct criticism of MoS.

The problem is not the death but how it's handled and integrated into the story. And even that, I'm pretty sure, is not the biggest failing of the film.

But, the fanbase has spoken, the next movie will probably be a response to the fan's biggest complaint with MoS, that Superman killed, and also possibly that he didn't save enough people.

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Old 10-25-2013, 08:12 AM   #13
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

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The Superman fanbase said that Superman Returns was a bad movie because Superman "didn't land a single punch". We then got MoS. Now, the Superman fanbase is saying that MoS is a bad movie because "Superman killed". I don't think think that this is a correct criticism of MoS.

The problem is not the death but how it's handled and integrated into the story. And even that, I'm pretty sure, is not the biggest failing of the film.

But, the fanbase has spoken, the next movie will probably be a response to the fan's biggest complaint with MoS, that Superman killed, and also possibly that he didn't save enough people.
Lol, as if they would give a damn about the fanbase.

It's the market.

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Old 10-25-2013, 08:57 AM   #14
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

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Now, the Superman fanbase is saying that MoS is a bad movie because "Superman killed". I don't think think that this is a correct criticism of MoS.
That's an extremely broad generalization. There are plenty of members of the Superman fanbase that have never said such a thing. In fact, there a plenty of members who would argue the opposite.


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Old 10-26-2013, 01:37 AM   #15
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

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That's an extremely broad generalization. There are plenty of members of the Superman fanbase that have never said such a thing. In fact, there a plenty of members who would argue the opposite.
Yes, of course I'm making generalization, unless you want me to delineate the view of every individual fan, one by one.

The generalization of the fanbases' reaction to SR is quite representative, not of everybody but of a significant number of people. A lot of people have said it's a bad movie because he doesn't land a single punch, look up some reviews online and some subsequent analysis, or better yet:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=superman+return...a+single+punch

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And I'm not sure the fanbase is saying mos was a 'bad movie because he killed'. By fanbase I assume you mean superman fans and not the GA?

Like you said there are other problems, so I'm curious where you derived these conclusions other than the sentiments of a few, loud(like waid) or others.
It was a huge controversy in the weeks following the release and the number one thing talked about in general news outlets. It was the first plotline I found out about prior to reading the movie, even though I tried to avoid spoilers. For me, anyway, that's unfortunate, as I don't think it's the most impactful decision made in the writing process. I think it would be a very similar movie if Zod had just fallen into the phantom zone.

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Moreover, weren't you going on about how wb(goyer/snyder specifically) probably won't take the criticism but rather just do what they want(maybe that was tobias).
I'm not sure on the exact process as to how GA reactions percolate in, but I'm pretty sure they do and we often see movies that are responses to the reactions to previous films.

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one difference between returns and mos is the basic superman tropes of old such as the daily planet stuff, costume changes and excuses, luthor, a superman that waved to people..etc. This stuff puts returns in a more 'superman film' category than returns which simply chose to go in a fresh, prequelesque route. I think some people that want to see that 'stuff' may have been put off by this non superman film which might have lead to some of the criticism about some stuff missing. I see that changed next time around. When someone said the fun was missing, I suspect at least some of that has to do with no classic shirt rip or things of that sort.

All that being said, I personally think this team has a way with sequels.
There are plenty of Superman tropes and fan-service scenes in MoS, as there should be, and this movie would be a lot worse if Goyer had inserted every possible trope in a 2 hour movie.

Die hard superman fans got to see:
- Keel-ex in live action for the first time;
- Jor-El and Zod wear nonsensical suits that "look cool";
- the fortress of solitude;
- Flying treated as the most significant superpower, it's the power he learns right after meeting Jor-El, and it's the first power he shows off when meeting General Swanwick;
- The ending scene at the Daily Planet;
- The entire Lois and Clark relationship;
- Lois kind of naming Superman;
- Adult Clark wearing glasses;

There are plenty of Superman tropes in MoS, I think that whatever subset of tropes had been included there would have been some complaints that it was the wrong ones, and I'm not particularly caring about things like the shirt rip or the glasses.

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Old 10-26-2013, 10:02 AM   #16
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

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It was a huge controversy in the weeks following the release and the number one thing talked about in general news outlets. It was the first plotline I found out about prior to reading the movie, even though I tried to avoid spoilers. For me, anyway, that's unfortunate, as I don't think it's the most impactful decision made in the writing process. I think it would be a very similar movie if Zod had just fallen into the phantom zone.
With alot of these movies comes loud initial talking point controversy. I'm sure there was talk of 911isms/violence "controvery" post TDK in 'general news outlets'. That being you explanation I still don't see how it correlates to: the Superman fanbase is saying that MoS is a bad movie because "Superman killed"

If your statement about what the fanbase is literally saying, as a whole is true, it stands to reason the fanbase is lame

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Old 10-26-2013, 01:31 PM   #17
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

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Yes, of course I'm making generalization, unless you want me to delineate the view of every individual fan, one by one.

The generalization of the fanbases' reaction to SR is quite representative, not of everybody but of a significant number of people. A lot of people have said it's a bad movie because he doesn't land a single punch, look up some reviews online and some subsequent analysis, or better yet:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=superman+return...a+single+punch
I wasn't disagreeing with that. I was referring to your generalization that the fanbase is arguing that MOS is bad film because Zod being killed. There is a certain contingent, yes, but an entire fanbase, no.

Now regardless of size of the negative reaction, a response to the killing in the sequel is an obvious given. A major plot point and character choice like that is introduced with the intent of it informing the story and character going forward.

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Old 10-25-2013, 08:17 AM   #18
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

Quoteriginally Posted by*The Guard*Did we ever see Clark change into Superman in MAN OF STEEL?

I don't think we did.oh ya, we didn't even see the most ironic shirt-ripoff scene. and we didn't even see how the public reaction to the powerful flying blueman.*this is so against the expectation of the general audience. did they do it in purpose???

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Old 10-25-2013, 08:29 AM   #19
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

DA
I'm sure the 'fanbase' has said these statements, but not sure where you get the idea that the 'fanbase' said "returns was a bad movie because..land a single punch".
And I'm not sure the fanbase is saying mos was a 'bad movie because he killed'. By fanbase I assume you mean superman fans and not the GA?

Like you said there are other problems, so I'm curious where you derived these conclusions other than the sentiments of a few, loud(like waid) or others.
Moreover, weren't you going on about how wb(goyer/snyder specifically) probably won't take the criticism but rather just do what they want(maybe that was tobias).

My point is, you are making generalizations about why 'people' think films are good or bad as a whole. I personally think if mos had major failings, between the 4 creative people attached to the film, at least some of those things will be addressed, nolan doesn't seem like one to not be even a little keen on such things, even in a suggestion capacity. The only concern is if WB sees more money to be made in spite of what is a proper decision. The fact of the matter is unlike GL they have a hit on their hands, more than ASM/Ironman in respective categories. Had they played it safer and not taken a few bold chances they probably would have had a safer score tbh.

one difference between returns and mos is the basic superman tropes of old such as the daily planet stuff, costume changes and excuses, luthor, a superman that waved to people..etc. This stuff puts returns in a more 'superman film' category than returns which simply chose to go in a fresh, prequelesque route. I think some people that want to see that 'stuff' may have been put off by this non superman film which might have lead to some of the criticism about some stuff missing. I see that changed next time around. When someone said the fun was missing, I suspect at least some of that has to do with no classic shirt rip or things of that sort.

All that being said, I personally think this team has a way with sequels.

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Old 10-25-2013, 09:56 AM   #20
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

Considering how closely we know Snyder and Goyer would have studied the comics, taking lines from them etc, I'm really surprised we didn't see a shirt rip.

I'm pretty sure that most of what people felt was missing in MoS when it came to their idea of Superman will be present in BvsS. After all, he has to be distinguished from Batman.


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Old 10-25-2013, 10:01 AM   #21
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

I think the shirt rip comes with Clark Kent with glasses as a reporter and transforming into Superman. Since he didn't become that version of Clark Kent till the end we didn't get a shirt rip.

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Old 10-25-2013, 10:05 AM   #22
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

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I think the shirt rip comes with Clark Kent with glasses as a reporter and transforming into Superman. Since he didn't become that version of Clark Kent till the end we didn't get a shirt rip.
Yeah absolutely. I remember before the film was released, we had no idea for how much of the film he would be a reporter. Beforehand I thought the film might actually end on a shirt rip, right into the credits. It did end on a great line though.

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Old 10-25-2013, 10:07 AM   #23
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

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Considering how closely we know Snyder and Goyer would have studied the comics, taking lines from them etc, I'm really surprised we didn't see a shirt rip.

I'm pretty sure that most of what people felt was missing in MoS when it came to their idea of Superman will be present in BvsS. After all, he has to be distinguished from Batman.
I think like batman but even moreso, they are really sticking to the "building upto" character type of deconstruction. If they had their way I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even call him superman in this.
Sort of like a condensed smallville approach. That series literally ended on the shirt rip if I recall correctly.

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Old 10-25-2013, 10:24 AM   #24
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

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I think like batman but even moreso, they are really sticking to the "building upto" character type of deconstruction. If they had their way I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even call him superman in this.
Sort of like a condensed smallville approach. That series literally ended on the shirt rip if I recall correctly.
Pretty sure he'll be formally called Superman, given the title of the movie. I think the "building up to character" was already done in MoS, and the scene of him confronting General Swanwick in the desert showed a Superman confident in his own suit. If anything, BvS will be a building up to mythology.

Agree with Starman in that the shirt rip is more synonymous with Clark Kent the reporter, so there's a good chance we could see it in BvS.


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Old 10-25-2013, 11:17 AM   #25
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

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Pretty sure he'll be formally called Superman, given the title of the movie. I think the "building up to character" was already done in MoS, and the scene of him confronting General Swanwick in the desert showed a Superman confident in his own suit. If anything, BvS will be a building up to mythology.

Agree with Starman in that the shirt rip is more synonymous with Clark Kent the reporter, so there's a good chance we could see it in BvS.
I was talking about mos.

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