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Old 10-30-2013, 06:19 PM   #1
Keyser Soze
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Default SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

Obviously, SPOILER ALERT!

Seriously, don't look unless you want spoiled!

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Alright then.

At the end of Thor: The Dark World (the end of the main film, not including the post-credits stuff), Thor and Odin talk in the throne room. They mourn the death of Loki, with Thor remarking that Loki died honourably. Odin offers Thor the throne of Asgard, but Thor turns it down, saying that, for all his faults, Loki probably had a more suitable temprament for the throne than he does. He says that he would rather serve Asgard and all the Nine Realms in his own way. He leaves, with Odin's veiled blessing. Or so it seems....

As once Thor's gone, "Odin" morphs into Loki, not dead after all, and now the de facto ruler of Asgard, posing as his adoptive father! And in the end credits visual montage, the last image we're left with is that ominous shot of Loki on the throne.

So, this brings up a couple of questions.

First up, what exactly is the chronology of what happened? I take it that Odin sent a guard to Svartalfheim, who Loki offed and replaced. So, in the conversation in Odin's throne room where the guard is talking to Odin, telling him that Odin is dead, I take it at this point it's actually Loki talking to Odin. So far, so straight forward.

But here's where it gets confusing. On first assumption, we might be supposed to think that Loki has somehow forcibly taken the throne... imprisoned the real Odin away somewhere while he poses as him. But I don't buy that. How could Loki overpower Odin? And where could Loki hide him where he would go unfound?

No, I have a different theory. Watching that scene with Odin and the guard, something in Odin's face suggested to me that he saw through the disguise and knew he was talking to Loki. And what if, rather than Loki stealing the throne from Odin, it was given to him willingly? What if, weary and grieving, Odin DID want to abdicate, as Loki-Odin indicated to Thor in the end conversation? But what if Odin knew Thor would never accept the role of his heir? And what if he figured out that the best means of keeping Loki in line would be to give him a measure of power? So, Odin goes into self-imposed exile - as he has been known to do in the comics - and Loki is left to run Asgard in his place? But of course the people of the Nine Realms wouldn't accept the hated Loki as their leader, so Loki maintains the form of Odin while on the seat?

The other question is: was Loki running a long con, staging his death to win over Thor's trust again and make himself out to be a martyr, so he could be in position to take the throne through nefarious means? Or was his sacrifice genuine, and the throne-taking subterfuge only a spontaneous act of opportunism? I'm inclined to lean towards the latter, as for it to be the former too many things outwith Loki's control would have had to have gone just how he wanted them to. But I admire the filmmakers for making it just ambiguous enough to be read either way.

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Old 10-30-2013, 06:22 PM   #2
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

I took it as Loki imprisoned Odin and took the throne while pretending to be him.

Quite conveniant for Frigga to be dead as she's the one person who know Odin closely enough to see through the deception.

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Old 10-30-2013, 06:30 PM   #3
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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I took it as Loki imprisoned Odin and took the throne while pretending to be him.

Quite conveniant for Frigga to be dead as she's the one person who know Odin closely enough to see through the deception.
Yes, I too think Loki found a way to get Odin imprisoned somewhere.

As for convenient, being a good schemer is all about taking the action that's the most advantageous to the current situation.

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Old 10-30-2013, 06:35 PM   #4
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As for convenient, being a good schemer is all about taking the action that's the most advantageous to the current situation.
Didn't think of it like that.

One thing though Loki seemed to feel for Frigga. i wonder was it an act?

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Old 10-30-2013, 06:38 PM   #5
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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Didn't think of it like that.

One thing though Loki seemed to feel for Frigga. i wonder was it an act?
Nah, I think Loki's love for Frigga was genuine. That was laced throughout the film. And I even recall reading the first draft script for the first movie way back, and there was a whole lot of stuff about how Loki was always estranged from Odin but had a close relationship with Frigga that didn't fully transfer into the eventual film, but which they seem to have carried over more here.

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Old 10-30-2013, 06:41 PM   #6
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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Nah, I think Loki's love for Frigga was genuine. That was laced throughout the film. And I even recall reading the first draft script for the first movie way back, and there was a whole lot of stuff about how Loki was always estranged from Odin but had a close relationship with Frigga that didn't fully transfer into the eventual film, but which they seem to have carried over more here.
It definitely seemed genuine to me, in fact it was one of the more genuine and focused on aspects of Loki's character in the film. Especially in the scene they share together in the prison chamber... and it's further displayed in the scene between him and Thor straight after her death, with Loki laying on the ground looking fairly dishevelled and dejected.

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Old 11-12-2013, 02:19 PM   #7
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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Nah, I think Loki's love for Frigga was genuine. That was laced throughout the film. And I even recall reading the first draft script for the first movie way back, and there was a whole lot of stuff about how Loki was always estranged from Odin but had a close relationship with Frigga that didn't fully transfer into the eventual film, but which they seem to have carried over more here.
I agree. I highly doubt the studio would want to make loki that unrelatable to the audience, the one thing most ppl can relate too is a mothers love. Also when loki was given the news he trashed his room and was alone so i feel that was a true geniune moment for loki to show us his true feelings (love) for her.

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Old 10-30-2013, 06:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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Didn't think of it like that.

One thing though Loki seemed to feel for Frigga. i wonder was it an act?
No, he definitely loved her. Remember how he even created an illusion of her so he could have a conversation with her in the dungeon.

I also think we're to draw the conclusion that Frigga was the one that taught Loki magic and therefor they've had a special bond.

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Old 11-09-2013, 10:24 AM   #9
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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No, he definitely loved her. Remember how he even created an illusion of her so he could have a conversation with her in the dungeon.

I also think we're to draw the conclusion that Frigga was the one that taught Loki magic and therefor they've had a special bond.
That was Frigga who did that. She had similar abilities.

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Old 10-30-2013, 06:30 PM   #10
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

Honestly, I thought the ending was stupid.

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Old 10-30-2013, 06:36 PM   #11
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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Honestly, I thought the ending was stupid.
I genuinely think... that last shot of Loki revealing himself as 'Odin' was added in re-shoots.. it just seemed too 'real' in the film to me that Loki had actually ended up giving his life in hoping to achieve some sort of vengeance for his 'mother'. The thing for me that sort of solidified that was when Thor visited Loki in his prison after his mothers death, Loki trying to hide his actual demeanour from Thor, he seemed genuinely affected by what had happened and to me seemed to crave vengeance at any cost (even going to the extent of pretending to betray Thor to give Thor a shot at destroying the Aether and taking out Malekith, all while shielding Jane during that encounter).

Something about that final shot just seemed odd and tacked on to me. It is a plot point that does give them something good to work from in future films but I don't think that was the original ending at all. I'll need to see the film again though before I make a final judgement on that so don't take that as my final thoughts on it, that's just from my first screening, going to go see it again on Friday. That's the problem with a 'trickster' like Loki.. you can never be too sure just what exactly is going on...especially how his character behaves in Thor: The Dark World.

Just my thoughts for now... don't take it as final judgement.

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Old 10-30-2013, 06:41 PM   #12
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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I genuinely think... that last shot of Loki revealing himself as 'Odin' was added in re-shoots.. it just seemed too 'real' in the film to me that Loki had actually ended up giving his life in hoping to achieve some sort of vengeance for his 'mother'. The thing for me that sort of solidified that was when Thor visited Loki in his prison after his mothers death, Loki trying to hide his actual demeanour from Thor, he seemed genuinely affected by what had happened and to me seemed to crave vengeance at any cost (even going to the extent of pretending to betray Thor to give Thor a shot at destroying the Aether and taking out Malekith, all while shielding Jane during that encounter).

Something about that final shot just seemed odd and tacked on to me. It is a plot point that does give them something good to work from in future films but I don't think that was the original ending at all. I'll need to see the film again though before I make a final judgement on that so don't take that as my final thoughts on it, that's just from my first screening, going to go see it again on Friday. That's the problem with a 'trickster' like Loki.. you can never be too sure just what exactly is going on...especially how his character behaves in Thor: The Dark World.

Just my thoughts for now... don't take it as final judgement.
Given the popularity of the character i can easily see them changing his real death in the movie so as to not kill him off.

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Old 10-30-2013, 06:43 PM   #13
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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Given the popularity of the character i can easily see them changing his real death in the movie so as to not kill him off.
Yeah that's what I was thinking too, they might have thought after the fact "hang on a minute, we can't kill him off" and brought him back in that way, regardless it would only have been a matter of time, whether in a future Thor or Avengers, until they brought him back somehow.. dead or not.

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Old 10-30-2013, 06:52 PM   #14
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

Alan Taylor said the reshoots they did for Loki were of him shapeshifting and of him in chains. Not the end scene.

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Old 10-31-2013, 06:45 AM   #15
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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I genuinely think... that last shot of Loki revealing himself as 'Odin' was added in re-shoots.. it just seemed too 'real' in the film to me that Loki had actually ended up giving his life in hoping to achieve some sort of vengeance for his 'mother'. The thing for me that sort of solidified that was when Thor visited Loki in his prison after his mothers death, Loki trying to hide his actual demeanour from Thor, he seemed genuinely affected by what had happened and to me seemed to crave vengeance at any cost (even going to the extent of pretending to betray Thor to give Thor a shot at destroying the Aether and taking out Malekith, all while shielding Jane during that encounter).

Something about that final shot just seemed odd and tacked on to me. It is a plot point that does give them something good to work from in future films but I don't think that was the original ending at all. I'll need to see the film again though before I make a final judgement on that so don't take that as my final thoughts on it, that's just from my first screening, going to go see it again on Friday. That's the problem with a 'trickster' like Loki.. you can never be too sure just what exactly is going on...especially how his character behaves in Thor: The Dark World.

Just my thoughts for now... don't take it as final judgement.
Those are my thoughts as well. And in regards to Taylor's comments on the re-shoots, of course he's not going to say they're re-shooting the ending. Sure he could have been telling the truth but the ending pretty much made me, my friends and a lot of the audience go "wut."

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Old 10-31-2013, 09:30 AM   #16
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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Those are my thoughts as well. And in regards to Taylor's comments on the re-shoots, of course he's not going to say they're re-shooting the ending. Sure he could have been telling the truth but the ending pretty much made me, my friends and a lot of the audience go "wut."

The ending was a huge cliffhanger. What else could they have possibly ended with, if not Loki tricking his way onto the throne? I very much doubt that Loki being alive was added in the reshoots. I think it was always planned to be that way.

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Old 10-31-2013, 09:54 AM   #17
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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Those are my thoughts as well. And in regards to Taylor's comments on the re-shoots, of course he's not going to say they're re-shooting the ending. Sure he could have been telling the truth but the ending pretty much made me, my friends and a lot of the audience go "wut."
Why is it obvious that he wouldn't say if they had reshot that scene? It came out that the fight between Superman and Zod in MoS was added late in the process, and that's a much bigger change.

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Old 10-31-2013, 01:10 PM   #18
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Why is it obvious that he wouldn't say if they had reshot that scene? It came out that the fight between Superman and Zod in MoS was added late in the process, and that's a much bigger change.
A fight between the hero and the villain is not a bigger change than a major character's death. Unless you're referring to Superman snapping Zod's neck, which was confirmed to have been in the original script.

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The ending was a huge cliffhanger. What else could they have possibly ended with, if not Loki tricking his way onto the throne? I very much doubt that Loki being alive was added in the reshoots. I think it was always planned to be that way.
They could have ended it like everyone thought it would in the cinema, with Odin talking to Thor and then cut to a wide shot of Asgard or the Nine Realms or whatever. At first I was suspicious that Loki was actually dead, then as the movie went on I actually started to believe he was. It would have been way more effective had he actually died. If Marvel wanted to bring him back then they can do it in Thor 3 with the incredibly-likely Raganorak stoyline.

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Old 11-09-2013, 06:31 PM   #19
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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I genuinely think... that last shot of Loki revealing himself as 'Odin' was added in re-shoots.. it just seemed too 'real' in the film to me that Loki had actually ended up giving his life in hoping to achieve some sort of vengeance for his 'mother'. The thing for me that sort of solidified that was when Thor visited Loki in his prison after his mothers death, Loki trying to hide his actual demeanour from Thor, he seemed genuinely affected by what had happened and to me seemed to crave vengeance at any cost (even going to the extent of pretending to betray Thor to give Thor a shot at destroying the Aether and taking out Malekith, all while shielding Jane during that encounter).

Something about that final shot just seemed odd and tacked on to me. It is a plot point that does give them something good to work from in future films but I don't think that was the original ending at all. I'll need to see the film again though before I make a final judgement on that so don't take that as my final thoughts on it, that's just from my first screening, going to go see it again on Friday. That's the problem with a 'trickster' like Loki.. you can never be too sure just what exactly is going on...especially how his character behaves in Thor: The Dark World.

Just my thoughts for now... don't take it as final judgement.

He felt for Frigga but Loki only has ever wanted one thing...to be a King. That's his purpose...he wants what he calls "his birthright". I think he saw his chance to do it and did it. As for Odin, maybe he found a way to trick him into a portal and Thanos has him imprisoned.

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Old 10-30-2013, 06:58 PM   #20
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

Yeah, I found the end scene to be too significant to just throw in as it creates huge implications on future stories. If they just wanted him alive they could have done it in a smaller way.

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Old 10-30-2013, 08:23 PM   #21
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

Looking back at all the Thor 2 posters, I came across this one again and I like how it sort of gives away the ending, but you don't know it until you watched the film. Loki sitting there with Odin's sceptre and the broken throne looking mischievous/ambiguous.

This I think shows that the ending wasn't part of the reshoots and was part of the original plan in the script because these where early posters and came out before Alan Taylor announced that they where doing reshoots


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Old 10-30-2013, 09:03 PM   #22
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Looking back at all the Thor 2 posters, I came across this one again and I like how it sort of gives away the ending, but you don't know it until you watched the film. Loki sitting there with Odin's sceptre and the broken throne looking mischievous/ambiguous.

This I think shows that the ending wasn't part of the reshoots and was part of the original plan in the script because these where early posters and came out before Alan Taylor announced that they where doing reshoots

Good catch!

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Old 10-30-2013, 10:20 PM   #23
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

Honestly, I was half expecting the film to end like it did.

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Old 10-30-2013, 10:42 PM   #24
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

I think Loki is really dead in the middle of the film.

He goes to Helheim => he made a deal with Hela => Odin and Loki swap their places => Loki ascends the throne => THE END !

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Old 10-31-2013, 02:27 AM   #25
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I think Loki is really dead in the middle of the film.

He goes to Helheim => he made a deal with Hela => Odin and Loki swap their places => Loki ascends the throne => THE END !
I like that as a theory!

We were wondering where Odin went, the best we came up with was that he was taking some personal time to properly mourn the death of Frigga.

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