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Old 12-26-2013, 05:21 AM   #1
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - Part 10

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Old 12-26-2013, 05:21 AM   #2
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Old 12-26-2013, 05:21 AM   #3
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - Part 10

My gut feeling is that is what they are going for. It would create a strong emotional tie between the characters, and give both of them character arcs that are intertwined.

I've got to go for now, but the conversation was fun.

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Old 12-26-2013, 05:25 AM   #4
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - Part 10

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Yeah, they constantly teach each other stuff... being opposites in so many ways they learn a lot from each other. It is why I'm happy they are doing a Batman / Superman film before Justice League... their complex relationship is the heart of the League and it deserves some special care to get it right. (At least I'm hoping this is a Batman / Superman movie and not a Justice League movie...!)
Ditto. I was disappointed at first when this movie was announced because I wanted a Supes sequel. But then I got to thinking about what Batman's inclusion really means. And if done well, it could be such a complex and moving exploration of these characters and how they interact.

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Old 12-26-2013, 05:36 AM   #5
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

I think we could get something like, especially since Terrio is on board to revise the script and he did an excellent job of tightly interlocking characters in that film.

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Old 12-26-2013, 05:43 AM   #6
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

I feel more optimistic about it too now that he's on board. This could be really ****ing good.

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Old 12-26-2013, 05:46 AM   #7
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

Agreed. Bring in JP and BOOM.

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Old 12-26-2013, 11:02 AM   #8
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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Agreed. Bring in JP and BOOM.
Why would they cast a pair of Hype posters in this movie? I mean, they're cool guys, but how do we even know they can act?

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Old 12-26-2013, 11:36 PM   #9
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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Why would they cast a pair of Hype posters in this movie? I mean, they're cool guys, but how do we even know they can act?

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Old 12-26-2013, 05:51 AM   #10
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

That's a BEST MOVIE EVER recipe right there.

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Old 12-26-2013, 11:28 AM   #11
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I think Affleck knows that people expect him to hog up the spotlight as batman, but he's a comic fan and he understands this is a supes sequel first and foremost.

and with him and Terrio involved with the script, I'm confident that this is gonna be the best DC movie yet. Call me crazy if you want to, but I truly believe it has a chance to be better than TDK.

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Old 12-26-2013, 11:22 PM   #12
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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I think Affleck knows that people expect him to hog up the spotlight as batman, but he's a comic fan and he understands this is a supes sequel first and foremost.

and with him and Terrio involved with the script, I'm confident that this is gonna be the best DC movie yet. Call me crazy if you want to, but I truly believe it has a chance to be better than TDK.


Yeah, I agree. Aside from JL, this is the DC movie I've been waiting on for a long time.

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Old 12-26-2013, 11:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

The Phantasm wrote:

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I don't mean a slobbering lunatic, I mean broken more along the lines of what Keaton was than Bale.

Ultimately the no-kill rule doesn't make sense. You'd have to kill the Joker to stop him from killing others. He keeps breaking out of Arkham, there's no way he is going to ever reform. The most sensible and pragmatic thing to do would be to end him, like Supes ended Zod (and Supes had better upbringing than Bruce!). But if you are psychologically broken so that you can't even pick up a gun and point it at someone because of your trauma, so that you can't even consider killing someone because of your horror at what you'd see yourself becoming, then it makes sense.

We are talking about a guy psychologically broken enough to dress as a bat, study the sciences, bring his body to peak condition, and enlist teenagers as his side-kicks. Of course he's still heroic. I'm not talking All-Star Batman insane. I'm just saying deep down that trauma fundamentally altered how he thinks of the world so that killing someone willfully would basically break his sanity.
I actually think this is a big part of the appeal for many viewers of TDK. Until that film, I doubt much of the GA was aware of his "one rule" and while he doesn't take it to the extremes of how Frank Miller's Batman will do it or how he will save the Joker in Arkham Origins, the fact that he would rather crash than run over the Joker as he guns down citizens, and then later saves Joker from death baffles fans. Nolan's Batman is very much a victim of his psychological need to save everyone...resulting in him finally being forced to confront that issue in an unwinnable situation when he must choose between letting Two-Face kill Jim Gordon's son, or kill Harvey Dent.

However, if you want something a little darker and more violent with a practiced ambivalence, I could see that working. It would certainly be par for the course with Snyder at the helm.

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Old 12-27-2013, 12:31 PM   #14
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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The Phantasm wrote:



I actually think this is a big part of the appeal for many viewers of TDK. Until that film, I doubt much of the GA was aware of his "one rule" and while he doesn't take it to the extremes of how Frank Miller's Batman will do it or how he will save the Joker in Arkham Origins, the fact that he would rather crash than run over the Joker as he guns down citizens, and then later saves Joker from death baffles fans. Nolan's Batman is very much a victim of his psychological need to save everyone...resulting in him finally being forced to confront that issue in an unwinnable situation when he must choose between letting Two-Face kill Jim Gordon's son, or kill Harvey Dent.
Nonsense. I've said it a zillion times, and people seem to just ignore it...

Bruce Wayne kills a huge number of people in Batman Begins. The "I don't have to save you" logic doesn't hold up when you directly cause the situation from which a person needs saving. In court, Batman would be charged with murduring Ra's, even if it wasn't first degree.

But forget Ra's... He exploads the League of Shadows! He commits arson resulting in the death of untold scores of people- from nameless ninjas to the fake Ra's, to the criminal they asked him to behead (worst of all).

He kills Talia. It may not be murder, but he fires the shots that directly cause her to die from a broken neck.

Batman's kill count in TDKT is probably somewhere between 5 and 50, depending on how many LoS ninjas died in the explosion.

It's possible that this thematic hypocrisy is intentional commentary on how Wayne is capable of justifying things through mental gymnastics, but I think it's more than likely an example of lazy, hollow writing.

Lots to like about TDKT but it is thematically bankrupt, and is less realistic than the 89 Batman by far.

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Old 12-27-2013, 02:04 PM   #15
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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Nonsense. I've said it a zillion times, and people seem to just ignore it...

Bruce Wayne kills a huge number of people in Batman Begins. The "I don't have to save you" logic doesn't hold up when you directly cause the situation from which a person needs saving. In court, Batman would be charged with murduring Ra's, even if it wasn't first degree.

But forget Ra's... He exploads the League of Shadows! He commits arson resulting in the death of untold scores of people- from nameless ninjas to the fake Ra's, to the criminal they asked him to behead (worst of all).

He kills Talia. It may not be murder, but he fires the shots that directly cause her to die from a broken neck.

Batman's kill count in TDKT is probably somewhere between 5 and 50, depending on how many LoS ninjas died in the explosion.

It's possible that this thematic hypocrisy is intentional commentary on how Wayne is capable of justifying things through mental gymnastics, but I think it's more than likely an example of lazy, hollow writing.

Lots to like about TDKT but it is thematically bankrupt, and is less realistic than the 89 Batman by far.
He says in BB "I'm not an executioner", not "I don't kill". That doesn't mean that he doesn't kill. It means he doesn't deliberately kill. There's a difference in that. Deaths come from collateral damage. It's unavoidable, but he won't deliberately slash someone's neck.

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Old 12-27-2013, 11:41 PM   #16
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Nonsense. I've said it a zillion times, and people seem to just ignore it...

Bruce Wayne kills a huge number of people in Batman Begins. The "I don't have to save you" logic doesn't hold up when you directly cause the situation from which a person needs saving. In court, Batman would be charged with murduring Ra's, even if it wasn't first degree.

But forget Ra's... He exploads the League of Shadows! He commits arson resulting in the death of untold scores of people- from nameless ninjas to the fake Ra's, to the criminal they asked him to behead (worst of all).

He kills Talia. It may not be murder, but he fires the shots that directly cause her to die from a broken neck.

Batman's kill count in TDKT is probably somewhere between 5 and 50, depending on how many LoS ninjas died in the explosion.

It's possible that this thematic hypocrisy is intentional commentary on how Wayne is capable of justifying things through mental gymnastics, but I think it's more than likely an example of lazy, hollow writing.

Lots to like about TDKT but it is thematically bankrupt, and is less realistic than the 89 Batman by far.
Well not to go down this rabbit hole, but....

You are right that Batman blowing up the LOS temple at the beginning of BB--and I'd also add crashing his Batmobile head on to that first truck in TDK--in reality would have caused deaths. However, much like the comics, the explosions and fatalities indirectly caused by Batman in the background are glossed over. This is not unlike how Joker--in any medium--can seemingly smuggle explosives or Smilex gas into just about any place without concern be it a hospital, a ferry, a 1989 art museum, or a popular carnival from the mind of Frank Miller. Such logistics will always have to be overlooked.

As for the thematic "bankrupt" nature of TDKT? I will simply say that it is still to date the most intriguing and rich of its genre for conversations and critical thinking.

For example, you say that Batman straight up killed Talia Al Ghul. I would agree and consider it an evolution of his character:

In TDK, he is absolutist in his pathological need to save everyone. To the point where he would rather crash his motorcycle (and possibly kill himself) than stop the Joker from killing innocent civilians with lethal force. He even goes out of his way to save the Joker after throwing him off a skyscraper at the end. But when placed in a no-win scenario, he is forced to choose between saving Jim Gordon's son and stopping Harvey Dent in a process that would directly result in Dent's death. Whether you want to label this as murder or manslaughter, Batman killed Two-Face so Jim Gordon Jr. might live. He broke his one rule and that is why he is willing to create a cover-up for Harvey's crimes, if only to deprive Joker of his victory by stealing a pyrrhic one of his own.

In TDKR, Bruce is forced to confront all of his contradictions when he is left to rot as "a man of privilege" in a hole in the ground while his city burns. His obsession has consumed him to the point where he has no will to live beyond the mask, and he must give up that mask, as well as what some would deem the childish, or rather simplistic notions associated with it. To save Gotham, and just as importantly himself, he must put away his black-and-white worldview and the thought that he can save the world by playing by rules he more or less established for himself when he was in a place inconsolable rage and grief as a young man with a stunted worldview.

This is why he can:

1) Give up being Batman at the end.

2) Let Selina Kyle go, despite her sins.

3) Even appear in daylight at the end of TDKR as both a symbol AND a man, who is clearly flesh and blood in the sun's morning light. A first in the ENTIRE TRILOGY.

He has come out of the proverbial dark night and put away his "tricks and theatricality," as well as his tradition. It is why he also ignore his rules that he once broke for Dent without discrimination when his actions lead to the death of Talia and at least two of her minions (one driving the truck and at least one in a tumbler he leads missiles into). But he has "outgrown" Batman at this point, and has a more nuanced/utilitarian view of what "must be done."

The political implications of this is up to you. However, it is clearly not thematically bankrupt when we can even have this conversation.

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Old 12-28-2013, 02:36 AM   #17
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Well not to go down this rabbit hole, but....

You are right that Batman blowing up the LOS temple at the beginning of BB--and I'd also add crashing his Batmobile head on to that first truck in TDK--in reality would have caused deaths. However, much like the comics, the explosions and fatalities indirectly caused by Batman in the background are glossed over. This is not unlike how Joker--in any medium--can seemingly smuggle explosives or Smilex gas into just about any place without concern be it a hospital, a ferry, a 1989 art museum, or a popular carnival from the mind of Frank Miller. Such logistics will always have to be overlooked.

As for the thematic "bankrupt" nature of TDKT? I will simply say that it is still to date the most intriguing and rich of its genre for conversations and critical thinking.

For example, you say that Batman straight up killed Talia Al Ghul. I would agree and consider it an evolution of his character:

In TDK, he is absolutist in his pathological need to save everyone. To the point where he would rather crash his motorcycle (and possibly kill himself) than stop the Joker from killing innocent civilians with lethal force. He even goes out of his way to save the Joker after throwing him off a skyscraper at the end. But when placed in a no-win scenario, he is forced to choose between saving Jim Gordon's son and stopping Harvey Dent in a process that would directly result in Dent's death. Whether you want to label this as murder or manslaughter, Batman killed Two-Face so Jim Gordon Jr. might live. He broke his one rule and that is why he is willing to create a cover-up for Harvey's crimes, if only to deprive Joker of his victory by stealing a pyrrhic one of his own.

In TDKR, Bruce is forced to confront all of his contradictions when he is left to rot as "a man of privilege" in a hole in the ground while his city burns. His obsession has consumed him to the point where he has no will to live beyond the mask, and he must give up that mask, as well as what some would deem the childish, or rather simplistic notions associated with it. To save Gotham, and just as importantly himself, he must put away his black-and-white worldview and the thought that he can save the world by playing by rules he more or less established for himself when he was in a place inconsolable rage and grief as a young man with a stunted worldview.

This is why he can:

1) Give up being Batman at the end.

2) Let Selina Kyle go, despite her sins.

3) Even appear in daylight at the end of TDKR as both a symbol AND a man, who is clearly flesh and blood in the sun's morning light. A first in the ENTIRE TRILOGY.

He has come out of the proverbial dark night and put away his "tricks and theatricality," as well as his tradition. It is why he also ignore his rules that he once broke for Dent without discrimination when his actions lead to the death of Talia and at least two of her minions (one driving the truck and at least one in a tumbler he leads missiles into). But he has "outgrown" Batman at this point, and has a more nuanced/utilitarian view of what "must be done."

The political implications of this is up to you. However, it is clearly not thematically bankrupt when we can even have this conversation.
Brilliantly explained.

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Old 12-28-2013, 03:06 AM   #18
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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However, much like the comics, the explosions and fatalities indirectly caused by Batman in the background are glossed over.
Unless it's Man of Steel begin discussed, in which case the only assumption accepted by Righteous And True Superman Fans Everywhere™ is that Superman clearly and intentionally smashed dozens if not hundreds of civilians into paste every time he blinked.

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Old 12-27-2013, 09:51 AM   #19
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

I wasn't sure where to ask this, but since this was slightly brought up a few posts ago in this thread, I wanted to get everyone else's thoughts on this as well....


On a realistic level, how many of Batman's villains would you guys say would be qualified and more than likely to be given the death penalty IF the rules of the real world actually applied to Gotham when it came to their court system. And if so, which villains in particular?

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Old 12-27-2013, 11:44 AM   #20
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On a realistic level, how many of Batman's villains would you guys say would be qualified and more than likely to be given the death penalty IF the rules of the real world actually applied to Gotham when it came to their court system. And if so, which villains in particular?
Killer Croc, Black Mask, Ra's Al Ghul and The Joker.

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Old 12-27-2013, 11:20 AM   #21
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

Ben Affleck yet again listed for the Razzies this year for his performance in Runner Runner. This would be his 9th nomination!

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=470875

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Old 12-27-2013, 11:43 AM   #22
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Ben Affleck yet again listed for the Razzies this year for his performance in Runner Runner. This would be his 9th nomination!

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=470875
like the a previous poster mentioned, Affleck was the most redeemable quality about that movie, that performance further sold me on him being a kickass bruce wayne.

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Old 12-27-2013, 11:47 AM   #23
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like the a previous poster mentioned, Affleck was the most redeemable quality about that movie, that performance further sold me on him being a kickass bruce wayne.
I can't believe that Affleck and Arterton get nominates yet somehow Timberlake escapes!

Vulture actually did an article saying that Runner Runner was the final straw and that Timberlake should quit acting for good. And yet he's not listed here!

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Old 12-27-2013, 11:50 AM   #24
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I can't believe that Affleck and Arterton get nominates yet somehow Timberlake escapes!

Vulture actually did an article saying that Runner Runner was the final straw and that Timberlake should quit acting for good. And yet he's not listed here!
it makes sense considering how the anti-affleck movement has been going strong for more than a decade now, and Timberlake has escaped any criticism that deserves to go his way.

I'm really hoping he knocks it out of the park in BvS, he is the RDJ of the DC Universe now.

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Old 12-27-2013, 12:47 PM   #25
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it makes sense considering how the anti-affleck movement has been going strong for more than a decade nowUniverse now.
Well he WAS terrible in that decade wasn't he? I think Affleck's Worst Actor of the decade Razzie nomination for 2000-2009 was not misplaced.
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I'm really hoping he knocks it out of the park in BvS, he is the RDJ of the DC Universe now.
I think RDJ is in a different universe than Affleck. He's a million times the actor that Affleck is. I don't think the two can really be compared.

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