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Old 05-27-2014, 12:44 AM   #1
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Heart All Things Wonder Woman: An Open Discussion

I feel like we need this thread to talk about Wonder Woman's mythos as it relates to Snyderverse. Oh yeah, and to keep C. Lee's blood pressure low.

So yeah, here's where everyone can talk about anything else Wonder Woman that isn't about Gal Gadot or her costume.

Go nuts!

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Old 05-27-2014, 12:48 AM   #2
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Default Re: All Things Wonder Woman: An Open Discussion

not to rain on your parade Fanboiii but i think we already have a WW-only thread somewhere...

... which of course looks to have been buried in the netherworlds which goes to say how much activity that got

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Old 05-27-2014, 12:50 AM   #3
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not to rain on your parade Fanboiii but i think we already have a WW-only thread somewhere...

... which of course looks to have been buried in the netherworlds which goes to say how much activity that got
I did a search and couldn't find it. I only see the Gal Gadot thread and the costume thread here. I think it got left behind in the "DC Films" forum.

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Old 05-27-2014, 12:55 AM   #4
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I actually had an idea that magic and what not are locked on Amazon Island and someone steals it and she has to retrieve it.
Did you see my idea about connecting Shazam and Wonder Wonder? It ties well with your idea.

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Old 05-27-2014, 01:07 AM   #5
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I have a question: Are people born on Paradise Island? And if so, what happens to the male children?

I may have the majority of my posts in WW related threads but I'm actually not that familiar w/ the details of her mythos, lol.

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Old 05-27-2014, 01:10 AM   #6
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I have a question: Are people born on Paradise Island? And if so, what happens to the male children?

I may have the majority of my posts in WW related threads but I'm actually not that familiar w/ the details of her mythos, lol.
The Amazons were transported as adults there LONG ago by the Godesses of the greek pantheon. They are blessed with immortality. That's always been the general gist, give or take a few details in any given era of storytelling.

Diana is sort of every Amazon's child in a way, since she was the first Amazon to be on the isle from the age of childhood to adulthood. She learned and was doted on by most every woman there.

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Old 05-27-2014, 01:15 AM   #7
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The Amazons were transported as adults there LONG ago by the Godesses of the greek pantheon. They are blessed with immortality. That's always been the general gist, give or take a few details in any given era of storytelling.

Diana is sort of every Amazon's child in a way, since she was the first Amazon to be on the isle from the age of childhood to adulthood. She learned and was doted on by most every woman there.
I'm confused. In DC animated movies (like in Superman/Batman: Apocalypse), I've seen girls on themyscira who are younger than WW herself. Can you please explain how that works?

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Old 05-27-2014, 01:22 AM   #8
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I'm confused. In DC animated movies (like in Superman/Batman: Apocalypse), I've seen girls on themyscira who are younger than WW herself. Can you please explain how that works?
As far as I remember of the animated film you are referring too, no. Kara was presented as young, but the only other characters I remember them even naming were Artemis (again, an Amazon gifted long ago with immortality) and Harbinger, who is not an Amazon or even a WW character. Paradise Isle over the years has become a defacto "store house" if you will for many a DCU heroine with super powers that has fallen off the radar. When they pop up again it's like, where have you been? "Oh, I've been training with the Amazons on Paradise Isle. What did I miss around here?"

The only "Amazon" younger than Diana is Donna Troy... And no one wants to go into that mess since it would figuratively drive you insane.

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Old 05-27-2014, 01:30 AM   #9
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As far as I remember of the animated film you are referring too, no. Kara was presented as young, but the only other characters I remember them even naming were Artemis (again, an Amazon gifted long ago with immortality) and Harbinger, who is not an Amazon or even a WW character. Paradise Isle over the years has become a defacto "store house" if you will for many a DCU heroine with super powers that has fallen off the radar. When they pop up again it's like, where have you been? "Oh, I've been training with the Amazons on Paradise Isle. What did I miss around here?"

The only "Amazon" younger than Diana is Donna Troy... And no one wants to go into that mess since it would figuratively drive you insane.
Haha, thanks. I got it wrong then. And you're right, I just went to wikipedia to check out Donna Troy.....and I left after reading the first paragraph.

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Old 05-27-2014, 01:14 AM   #10
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I have a question: Are people born on Paradise Island? And if so, what happens to the male children?

I may have the majority of my posts in WW related threads but I'm actually not that familiar w/ the details of her mythos, lol.
In Perez's version, the Amazons weren't born. The gods revived souls of dead women and made them immortal. They're a new race.

In New 52, it seems like they are mortal. Three times a century they have sex raids to get pregnant by sailors. They keep the females and give the males to Hephaestus. In the latest issue, all the male Amazons came back to Paradise Island.


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Old 05-27-2014, 01:26 AM   #11
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Thanks for the responses, guys

Which version of the Amazons do you think BvS will portray: New 52 or Classic. I personally think the New 52 version sounds more interesting, lots of different story lines you could make on that premise.

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Old 05-27-2014, 01:38 AM   #12
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Thanks for the responses, guys

Which version of the Amazons do you think BvS will portray: New 52 or Classic. I personally think the New 52 version sounds more interesting, lots of different story lines you could make on that premise.
I'd be lying if I said I had any affinity for anything Nu52. While I don't think that Paradise Isle should be a perfect Utopia (that can be boring, yes.) the Utopia that's actually a secret dystopia has also been done to death.

Not to mention taking away Diana's origin of being molded from clay and making her one of the many Demi-God/Goddess hero types is bland to me. Plus, the daddy thing has been done to death. The core of Diana's parental issues has always been the tension between her and Hippolyta. That should be at the forefront. When daddy is the King Of The Gods, well... He's going to overshadow things no matter what.

Hippolyta's struggle is that she wants what all parents want, which is to keep her child safe and happy. But Diana wants to be free to do what she feels is right and this will put her at odds with her mother often. Diana must show Hippolyta the truth all parents must eventually learn, which is that after all the love and nurturing you give a child you must eventually release that individual into the world and TRUST that they will find their destiny on their own. That, along with some other aspects of their relationship is much more interesting than the variations on "daddy" issues that we've gotten from every other male hero. I don't see why its all that interesting to saddle the most well known Super Heroine of all time with all that well tread stuff.

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Old 05-27-2014, 01:59 AM   #13
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I'd be lying if I said I had any affinity for anything Nu52. While I don't think that Paradise Isle should be a perfect Utopia (that can be boring, yes.) the Utopia that's actually a secret dystopia has also been done to death.

Not to mention taking away Diana's origin of being molded from clay and making her one of the many Demi-God/Goddess hero types is bland to me. Plus, the daddy thing has been done to death. The core of Diana's parental issues has always been the tension between her and Hippolyta. That should be at the forefront. When daddy is the King Of The Gods, well... He's going to overshadow things no matter what.

Hippolyta's struggle is that she wants what all parents want, which is to keep her child safe and happy. But Diana wants to be free to do what she feels is right and this will put her at odds with her mother often. Diana must show Hippolyta the truth all parents must eventually learn, which is that after all the love and nurturing you give a child you must eventually release that individual into the world and TRUST that they will find their destiny on their own. That, along with some other aspects of their relationship is much more interesting than the variations on "daddy" issues that we've gotten from every other male hero. I don't see why its all that interesting to saddle the most well known Super Heroine of all time with all that well tread stuff.
Very well-reasoned response. Great read.

I agree that the core relationship between mother/daughter should remain intact. What if they combine elements of New 52/Classic. Have her be a demi-goddess child of Zeus but have Zeus be a complete absentee father, having no role in Diana's life whatsoever. That way you avoid all the daddy-drama issues and can focus solely on the Diana/Hippolyta relationship.

Just seems like the demi-goddess origin would be an easier sell to the studio and the public at large than the clay origin.

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Old 05-27-2014, 01:40 AM   #14
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Thanks for the responses, guys

Which version of the Amazons do you think BvS will portray: New 52 or Classic. I personally think the New 52 version sounds more interesting, lots of different story lines you could make on that premise.
Ever since I saw the Wonder Woman animated movie from 2009, I've always felt it was a perfect way to give WW a solo film. The story was neat and well paced, had most major characters and showed WW themes well.

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Old 05-27-2014, 01:47 AM   #15
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Ever since I saw the Wonder Woman animated movie from 2009, I've always felt it was a perfect way to give WW a solo film. The story was neat and well paced, had most major characters and showed WW themes well.
It's pretty great as a capabilities presentation if you will for WW. It encapsulates exactly what her "world", supporting characters and as you posted, themes are all about.

Oh... It's also chock full of magic and mythology!!

Superman is the sci fi Hercules/Messiah

Batman is the Swashbuckling Avenger/Outlaw

Wonder Woman is the daughter of Myth and Magic. As much the compassionate "Fairy Godmother" as she is the "Angel with a flaming sword."

What ever she has been over the years, science fiction is not even close to it. She's pure fantasy people.

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Old 05-27-2014, 01:35 AM   #16
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God of War or get out!

Wait, screw that. Azzarello story or get out!

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Old 05-27-2014, 01:54 AM   #17
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God of War or get out!

Wait, screw that. Azzarello story or get out!
There's a lot I would take from Azzarello's run.

- Modern gods
- Aleka as Diana's childhood rival
- Wonder Woman being trained by Ares
- cuffs suppressing her divine powers/ god mode
- cuffs being able to summon weapons

I'm on the fence about Zeus being her father. I love that it gives WW a super powered family that are on her strength level, so essentially she has 2 families. But, we have yet to see how what kind of relationship Zeus himself will have with her.

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Old 05-27-2014, 01:49 AM   #18
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^ Wow, nicely put! The more I think about it the more I hope for a fantasy/magic version of WW. Let's hope things work out well. In Snyder we trust!

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Old 05-27-2014, 02:09 AM   #19
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I understand why the Zeus as dad thing feels more... Streamlined, shall we say? Or at least more easily to digest than the clay origin. But... It's also unique among superheroes and is as mythologicaly sound as the usual "Zeus schtupps a great hero into the world."

As a man, I can also see how WW being a divine creation needing no man in her birthing as important to her standing as a feminist icon. Mind you, I think that ultimately I come down on the side of what Trevor said in the WW DTV. Hippolyta and the gods choosing to cut themselves off from the world of man was a mistake and no good can truly come from it. It's naive, knee jerk... And in some ways totally understandable. Yet not feasible. WW is as much the Ambassador from her people as she is the bridge for their world and ours to be reconciled.

Oh, and she is the superhero that represents an older style of heroism and justice that in some ways is more strict and noble than what is thought of those abstracts today as well a being somewhat out of step with how the world actually is. Like all the best characters (and real people) there is some fascinating paradoxes at her core.

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Old 05-27-2014, 02:29 AM   #20
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I understand why the Zeus as dad thing feels more... Streamlined, shall we say? Or at least more easily to digest than the clay origin. But... It's also unique among superheroes and is as mythologicaly sound as the usual "Zeus schtupps a great hero into the world."
That's true but I would argue that uniqueness itself isn't necessarily a positive. Sometimes unique comes off as weird.

It's not just Diana who was born from clay. All the Amazons were made from clay. That originates from Greek mythology that says the first people were made from clay.

Also, Diana is still unique as a character regardless because of who she is. Where she came from is only one detail about her.

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Old 05-27-2014, 02:21 AM   #21
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Eh, I don't agree with making WW gender-centric.

I think WW should have both a female and male presence like most people have a mother and father. It gives her a perspective different from the other Amazons who have a prejudice against men because they mainly interact with other females and had negative experiences with men. WW is opened minded about men because she has had male influences.

Her relationship with Hippolyta and the Amazons is still part of her core in New 52. Having Zeus as a father doesn't inherently take away from her relationship with the Amazons or her mother.

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Old 05-27-2014, 02:29 AM   #22
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Eh, I don't agree with making WW gender-centric.

I think WW should have both a female and male presence like most people have a mother and father. It gives her a perspective different from the other Amazons who have a prejudice against men because they mainly interact with other females and had negative experiences with men. WW is opened minded about men because she has had male influences.

Her relationship with Hippolyta and the Amazons is still part of her core in New 52. Having Zeus as a father doesn't inherently take away from her relationship with the Amazons or her mother.
I'm not saying that she has to be "gender centric". But they have an old aphorism in the East. "The most pure part of the Yin can be found in the Yang and the most pure part of the Yang can be found in the Yin."

By that I mean, it's a paradox that the one Amazon that is the most purely female one of all is in fact the one to go to "Man's World" and reconcile her quite "gender centric" people with the wider world.

I also think there is powerful resonance for many women in the idea of her being, in a way, "purely female". Granted that is a real world impossibility, but mythologically, it's powerful.

I also again feel that even if he never showed up in a story in what ever format they do it in, the fact that her father IS Zeus Pan Hellios is a big frieakin' deal. Too big. It hangs like a shadow over everything else, to my eyes. Again, I understand the appeal, it's just doesn't sit right with me for the reasons I've explained.

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Old 05-27-2014, 02:35 AM   #23
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I also think there is powerful resonance for many women in the idea of her being, in a way, "purely female". Granted that is a real world impossibility, but mythologically, it's powerful.
But this is an archaic idea. No one is "purely female". The idealization of "female" creates problems.

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Old 05-27-2014, 02:45 AM   #24
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But this is an archaic idea. No one is "purely female". The idealization of "female" creates problems.
Yes, as I stated elsewhere the goddesses and Hippolyta's idea to separate themselves from "Man's world" is bat-guano stupid/insane. So again, is it ironic or is it just the karmic nature of the universe in these sort of stories that the one exemplar of their "Gender Centric" culture is also the one to both send their ideals out into the world as well as show the Amazons that cutting themselves off has always been folly? Again... It's all Greek(myth) to me.

There are much older ways to look at what WW's origin means than the sort of post pagan Christian world view or even the Post Christian modernist take on philosophies. Just saying, I think the appeal of these characters is much more elemental than we usually reckon with. Or as Michael Uslan said:

"The Gods of the ancient world took off their robes and sandals and put on spandex and capes..."

And yes, I am aware of the irony of invoking all that Joe Campebell stuff and still being against the Zeus angle.

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Old 05-27-2014, 03:03 AM   #25
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Yes, as I stated elsewhere the goddesses and Hippolyta's idea to separate themselves from "Man's world" is bat-guano stupid/insane. So again, is it ironic or is it just the karmic nature of the universe in these sort of stories that the one exemplar of their "Gender Centric" culture is also the one to both send their ideals out into the world as well as show the Amazons that cutting themselves off has always been folly? Again... It's all Greek(myth) to me.

There are much older ways to look at what WW's origin means than the sort of post pagan Christian world view or even the Post Christian modernist take on philosophies. Just saying, I think the appeal of these characters is much more elemental than we usually reckon with. Or as Michael Uslan said:

"The Gods of the ancient world took off their robes and sandals and put on spandex and capes..."

And yes, I am aware of the irony of invoking all that Joe Campebell stuff and still being against the Zeus angle.
Love Campbell. My concern is making a WW that has shared appeal. There will be a bunch of males who will be uncomfortable at the mere thought of asking to buy a movie ticket for "Wonder Woman". They aren't necessarily sexist but they might feel pressure from those that are.

That sort of discomfort could arise depending on how the movie portrays WW.

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