List of Things Batman Returns got Right/Wrong

[Superwoman Prime]

At any rate, MK's Bruce Wayne had more wit than you do:

Originally Posted by Parents-Guns-Bats

If you embrace Burton's depth you will see that she died but she has 9 lives or something like that! How clever! Zen galore!

[Superwoman Prime]

And yes, I realize this is BR we're discussing... but these tired nitpicks are commonly levelled at Burton's Batman take as a whole.

I could point to Bruce's interaction with Max Shreck (sp?) as proof that Wayne in Returns was sociable, albeit to a lesser extent than what we see in the comics these days.

The whole "Bruce was a nerdy psycopath" doesn't really cut it. Some people just aren't getting it. They either aren't getting the spirit of the movies, or the comic era they were drawn from.

Also: We never claimed that the Golden Age was the SOLE source aside from Batman the character as seen in B89/BR.

Burton at least flipped through TKJ for Nicholson's direction. The Penguin was a reimagining altogether, and Catwoman was a hodge-podge. Nobody is denying that.

[TMC1982]

Originally Posted by El Payaso

Not only restaured the dark atmopsphere and the badass personality to Batman, not only gave him the all black armoured suit, but Burton also made the franchise a popular one even till today and many of the aspects of his movies were taken by other directors for their own superhero movies.



Because what do "twisted" and "sinister" have to do with Batman, as opposed to Schumacher movie’s more accurate kid-friendly and flashy aspects.

I guess if we really try we can always find more value in a zanny Riddler and a Joker-impersonator ever-laughing comedic Two-Face than in the perfect Pfeiffer’s Catwoman and the really tragic Penguin.



Overshadowed? Batman is Batman, is still the hero and at the same time he remains in shadows as he’s supposed to be.

I’m not saying that this is the only way to portray the character , but the overshadowed argument is simply a reaction to the average more screentime = more importance formula.


Tim Burton seems to know what the original Batman was like.

Burton’s Batman is quite altruistic... to good innocent people, that is.



Luckily, he’s now a truly moving man-monster and not the average chubby guy in a tuxedo. Penguin was greatly imroved from the less than good original concept.



Burton considered a Robin before realising he – as many bat-fans – doesn’t want Robin anywhere next to Batman.

And gimme a break, we have had a black Kingpin and we’ll have a black Nick Fury. Even the animated series followed the black Harvey.

Oh and the name of the actor is not Lando Calrissian. For that matter should I say that Schuimacher gave us Ace Ventura as Riddler and Marshall Gerard as Two-face?



She’s never revived by cats. She never died.

And who’s to say she amongst other activities, used to learn martial arts in her free time before the accident?



Batman has traditionally have Catwoman as one of his weakness. He’s in love with her. That doesn’t make him a tool.



Nerd? Oh, I guess he wears glasses you felt compelled to make a cheap charicature.

And you gave yourself the answer. His parents got killed. There’s your motivation.








Looks like some Schumacher defence is going on too :S

Tim Burton seems to know what the original Batman was like.

Tim Burton himself, admitted that he doesn't read a lot of comic books. So how do you know for sure about his depth of knowledge of Batman?

Because what do "twisted" and "sinister" have to do with Batman, as opposed to Schumacher movie’s more accurate kid-friendly and flashy aspects.

I never said that those aspects shouldn't be apart of Batman's universe (especially with characters like Joker and Two-Face). My point is that I felt that Tim Burton went way, way overboard with these themes and lack a certain sense of rhyme and reason.

Overshadowed? Batman is Batman, is still the hero and at the same time he remains in shadows as he’s supposed to be.

I’m not saying that this is the only way to portray the character , but the overshadowed argument is simply a reaction to the average more screentime = more importance formula.

If the movies are called "Batman and "Batman Returns", then it would logically, make the most sense to give the most prominence to the title character. That would be like making a Superman film and giving more time and interest developing Lex Luthor.

Oh and the name of the actor is not Lando Calrissian. For that matter should I say that Schuimacher gave us Ace Ventura as Riddler and Marshall Gerard as Two-face?

I know the actor's name (get a sense of humor while your at it). Just like Beetlejuice played Batman in Tim Burton's films, and Iceman from "Top Gun" and Danny Ocean played Batman in Joel Schumacher's films.

And gimme a break, we have had a black Kingpin and we’ll have a black Nick Fury. Even the animated series followed the black Harvey.

The black Nick Fury was based on the "Ultimates" comics not from a film or television adaption. Two-Face on "Batman: The Animated Series" wasn't African American, he seemed to look more Italian (Scilian).

[TMC1982]

Originally Posted by El Payaso

Wrong. Batman used to be non indulgent towards criminals' lives since 1939.

In those comics as in Burton's movies he's too busy cleaning his city from criminals, defending the lives of the innocent good people to worry about what his image could be in terms of the comfortable classic morals.

Source material? Burton was faithful to Batman’s first incarnation which was later changed.



To the original Batman you mean.

The point of Batman not wanting to resort to killing criminals is because he feared that he would wound up becoming like the man who killed his parents. He didn't want to embody criminal-like methods himself. Did you have a problem with him then, not wanting to kill in Schumacher's films or "Batman Begins"?

[TMC1982]

Originally Posted by El Payaso

Wrong. Batman used to be non indulgent towards criminals' lives since 1939.

In those comics as in Burton's movies he's too busy cleaning his city from criminals, defending the lives of the innocent good people to worry about what his image could be in terms of the comfortable classic morals.

Source material? Burton was faithful to Batman’s first incarnation which was later changed.



To the original Batman you mean.

Where did it say in Batman's first incarnation that the Joker killed his parents?

[Finlandman]

Non-killing Batman has always been more heroic than killing Batman, and that's how it should be. Batman is a hero who fights against crime because of his love for humankind, not because he's some insane little boy. Because of his heart, he would never do something as evil as taking another man's life. Burton didn't understand this, but he still made very good movie that deservers all the credit it's been given.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

Simple.

[Don't get me wrong Batman(89) is an amazing movie when it comes to atmosphere and design]

I think the whole portrayal of Batman/Bruce Wayne is somehow... off. It's not that they changed the source material, that happens all the time and is for a movie who has only a restricted time frame somehow necessary. But you should - at least - get the essence of the material right. But Batman being a strange guy, totally emotionless and deranged doesn't feel like "the Batman" I read when I was young.

The guy had his parents killed randomly when he was 6. You’ll understand he might be a strange, somehow emotionless and deranged guy.

There’s nothing wrong about that approach. It’s Frank Miller’s approach, where Bruce Wayne it’s all of that.

That said, he wasn’t totally emotionless. And even Batman begins – also influenced by Miller’s approach - got it right when it showed Bruce pretending to be the cool guy. But he wasn’t.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

but Burton's Batman/Bruce Wayne... he is a pathetic looser.

Ridiculous. And a juvenil statement.

Being in emotional pain is far from being a loser.

And Burton’s Batman was cool. He said little and his movements were just a few, but everytime he moved, some guy fell to the floor unconscious.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

And what do you expect from a script writen by a guy who says things like "Batman is basically an insane guy who ****s up his love life".

What makes me wonder, what do you expect from a poster who says things like "Burton’s Batman is a pathetic loser”

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

The changes with the Penguin... man! some call it "better than the source material" but... what's the point?

The point is to be better than the source material.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

He isn't THE Penguin anymore.

Yes, he is. He even looks and feels more of a penguin than just being a chubby guy with a big nose. And his motivations are not only as strong as the comic books' version but him being deformed makes him a real tragic figure with a more powerful resentment towards society.

FAR better than the original. And still a penguin.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

He is a sewer monster out to kill the firstborn? WTF?

Yes, he is.

And so far that sounds far better then the comics version.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

They could have made the Penguin a Jedi Knight and some people would scream "Yeah, better than the source".

They could have made the Penguin a real memorable tragic monster-like figure better than the original and some people would scream "Yeah, but it’s nothing like the comics".

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

But if you don't like the original character... why do you use him?

Because many elements from the original version are good. But the whole concept was still lame.

Like when Shakespeare took Hamlet and made it a better character with a better story. He improved the original material just like Burton did with the Penguin.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

And Catwoman? You know what the basic character gimmick was? She was a thief. Burton's Cat-Zombie is not a thief at all.

Again struggling with perfection for the sake of a tiny detail that wasn’t important for the story. What can I say, “It's not that they changed the source material, that happens all the time and is for a movie”

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

(I don't have much to say about Nicholson's Joker. I think he did a decent job, but HE could have done better. He didn't play himself, he played Cesar-Romero-gone-homicidal.

So he did play a great Joker but darker? Booyah.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

And don't start with the illogical things.

You already monopolized that?

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

Nobody knows about the Wayne murders. Yeah right.

^ The illogical things monopoly.

In comics and movies we know who he is. Yet some might reasonably think that a faceless murder is better for the story (revenge is impossible and pointless, crime has no face). And as much as I like B89 and BB's approaches, I find that quite a great idea.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

A parade of gangsters and no police... yes, of course.

Yes, of course.

In the movie it’s fully explained. Major Borg said to Gotham that the authorities couldn’t warrantee citizens’ safety.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

Penguin's men manipulating the Batmobile. It has all been discussed before.

Yeah, manipulating a car is virtually an absurd concept. In the illogical things monopoly system maybe.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

And Batman Forever is really a kind of redemption.

Sure. Nipples, butts, neon lights, the anti-Two-Face, many Riddler’s riddles that points to... nowhere (“Mr. E”!???? That’s it???) It’s a pleasure. In the illogical things monopoly system that is.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

Batman is so heroic in this movie. He says things like "Harvey, you need help!" and shows compassion (Keaton Batman would've probably thrown a grenade or something like that).

Oh sure.

“Harvey, you need help. I can offer you a bunch of silver coins so you can lose balance and fall to your death. I hope you can appreciate my infinite compassion buddy.”

Illogical monopoly strikes again.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

His Bruce Wayne acts like in the comics.

Highly perturbed by his parents’ death. Something that Schumacher was luckily able to keep from Burton’s movies.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

This movie is really underrated.

Those Academy guys can’t appreciate nipples! They need to go out more, in words of Schumacher himself.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

And the scene where he saves the doctor AND Robin has actually more real symbolism than anything Burton did.

It symbolized how people you love fall much slower than any other kind of person (like Harvey Dent, who Batman refused to save as he did with Robin and Chase) so you can save them on time.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

The Riddler and Two-Face are not exactly the way I would imagine them. The Riddler is too crazy, he is almost the Joker and Two-Face flips his coin until it is right for him? WTF?

I’ll tell you wtf.

Schumacher got many elements terribly wrong. And the changes were for the worst. Opposite to Burton’s movies. Two-Face was nothing of Two-Face and Riddler was played as Frank-Gorshin-gone-homicidal.

[Finlandman]

Now, settle down. Just agree to disagree and go to some other forum to have fun.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

Yesyesyes, these things we always hear. It's not the killing, really. The 1940s Batman was not some depressed guy. As Bruce Wayne he was already a playboy with witty remarks. His interactions with Gordon and Julie Madison showed this. The "original Batman" threw out "one-liners" all the time. Hell, he even stopped to ask for the way once! Did I mention that this guy had friends? No. And in the original comics there was no Alfred. So. No.

And his interactions with Vicki Vale didn't?

"to tell you the truth I don't even think I've ever eaten in this room before"

"one drink and I'm flying"

and then poof off to the sack they went.

Modern psychobabble. In the original comics he had a fiancee.

You have seemed to conveniently forget about Silver St. Cloud and how his relationship with her was also an influence used in this movie.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

He was nothing like the comics.

Yes he was. Deeply perturbed and obssessive.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

A guy who sits in his chair and cries all the time because he has lost his parents 20 years ago is a loser.

So basically you don’t even like the Batman concept. Or your comprehension of the character is so vastly poor that all you can throw is that ignorant half-assed definition of both what a loser is and what a traumatized person is.

Any average person can cry his parents’ death for 20 years even if they weren’t killed. Most of us are able to see that reality and deal with it.

It’s as juvenile as saying “compassionate people are losers.”

That said, you might want to check your dvd player. It seems to be distorting images. There’s no scene where Bruce Wayne or Batman is crying. Except in that underrated masterpiece called Batman Forever. So I suggest you should call tech support as soon as possible.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

It's just his view on Batman. Reading his introduction to his "Blind Justice" story gave me the same vibe.

Yes, it seems that directors, much as writers in comics and movies have their own views on the characters they work with.

It’s never late to learn the most obvious things of this life. I encourage you to keep going.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

Yeah, licked by radioactive cats.

It seems your dvd player is distorting images. You might want to check it. I suggest you should call tech support as soon as possible.

Now, if you happen to have gotten the scene entirely wrong, the “tech support” for that might be considerably more expensive.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

How deep!!! That's almost "Burton" to me, you know "Hello There" / "Hell Here" like. What a genius!

Mh. So far the aforementioned words game has more wit in it than any of your criticisms. So please appreciate it.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

Yeah? Then show me the comic where Bruce Wayne seems to suffer from something like the Asperger syndrome or some attention deficit thing. He was totally unsure of himself.

I could cite plenty of comics where Bruce Wayne came across as an aloof person. This is how he has portrayed himself in public for decades as someone who is rich but also somewhat dumb not a spoiled snob. Granted Keaton/Burton took it to another level by making him more introverted but it served for the purpose of what they were trying to portray a more realistic take on a guy who plays dumb in public. There are many rich guys in real life who are that way it's the same way Bale/Nolan had him act like a complete jerk which is different from the comics but again a more realistic take as there are many rich people who also act that way in real life as well.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

Yeah? Then show me the comic where Bruce Wayne seems to suffer from something like the Asperger syndrome or some attention deficit thing.

Show me the movie where Bruce Wayne seems to suffer from something like the Asperger syndrome or some attention deficit thing.

I mean, other than Batman & Robin.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

He was totally unsure of himself.

As many times in comics Batman is unsure of his crimefighter career.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

oh, and when did Bruce Wayne ever wear glasses?

And where did he wear that scarf from batman begins? And where did he wear that housecoat? And where did he wear that watch?

I thought you were the one saying “It's not that they changed the source material, that happens all the time.”

Maybe you want a moment alone to reach an agreement with yourself?

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

That's just something they added to show us "Ohh sis guy is intelligent".

As much as many scenes that prove the same thing.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

How deep, Mr Burton!

He, in fact, was.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

I base it on the few scenes we see with "Bruce Wayne". He is a totally disturbed guy with some serious social phobias, it seems.

As many people with severe child traumas. Something else that urton got better than many comics.

Still, that is not crying. You owe us a rectification.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

You know, dead girl, radioactive cats, resurrection
Or something like that.

Haven’t you called tech support for your defective dvd player yet?

Or it’s still the getting scenes wrong thing?

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

That blind people pictogram might sum up accurately much of your criticism.

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

Originally Posted by Deathstroke

Bruce is, was, and will probably continue to be a disturbed guy. Childhood trauma is the cause.

No he was not. He started to dedicate his life to help other people. He has never been portrayed disturbed until Burton's Batman came around (Frank Miller doesn't count. DKR played at the end of Batman's career and in Y1 he was quite normal). Yeah, yeah, I know "who can a guy who dresses up like a bat be normal"? I tell you: He doesn't think he is a bat, he just uses the motif and the night as an advantage because he hasn't any superpowers. And, BTW; he lives in world where it's quite normal to wear a mask and fight/or commit crimes. The murder of his parents was seldom mentioned, more in some of Batman's sentimental moments. Oh and of course I talk about the Batman before Zero Hour, before he became a truly deranged nutcase - but this guy doesn't count because he didn't exist in 1989.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

Yesyesyes, these things we always hear.

The curious thing is not why you keep hearing the truth but why you keep refusing to accept it.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

It's not the killing, really. The 1940s Batman was not some depressed guy. As Bruce Wayne he was already a playboy with witty remarks. His interactions with Gordon and Julie Madison showed this. The "original Batman" threw out "one-liners" all the time. Hell, he even stopped to ask for the way once! Did I mention that this guy had friends? No. And in the original comics there was no Alfred. So. No.

The Frank Miller’s Batman is deppressive.

As many director, Burton chose the best elements of different eras that worked into the same context.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

Modern psychobabble. In the original comics he had a fiancee.

Like he had in all of the movies.

I suggest you should call tech support for your dvd player. It seems to be skipping scenes.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

If you embrace Burton's depth you will see that she died but she has 9 lives or something like that! How clever! Zen galore!

If you embrace your IQ you will see she survived as many other characters survive dangerous situations. Not because of any super-power.

Selina, in his twisted mind, was convinced it was the fact that she was a cat. But it wasn’t in reality.

Originally Posted by Parents-Gun-Bat

it's S-T-U-P-I.D. Perhaps they (Knox and Vale) didn't know it, because they are to young but they could have just asked some older guy.

Or they could have searched amongst the old newspapers files.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by Deathstroke

And yes, I realize this is BR we're discussing... but these tired nitpicks are commonly levelled at Burton's Batman take as a whole.

Desperation leads to many kind of vagueness.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Wow this thread is going nuts looks like the Nut-Gun person is stirring up the honey pot.

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

Originally Posted by El Payaso

The curious thing is not why you keep hearing the truth but why you keep refusing to accept it.

The truth is: Burton didn't really care about the source material, he tried to change everything to fit HIS vision.

The Frank Miller’s Batman is deppressive.

For the record. Burton's Batman has nothing to do with Miller'S DKR Batman. Yes, yes, they both wear bat costumes. But Miller's Batman is 80s! He is loud, aggressive, extroverted. Burton's Batman is silent, passive and introverted. (Same goes for his "Bruce Wayne")

As many director, Burton chose the best elements of different eras that worked into the same context.

Yeah, like the Penguin and Catwoman, back then in the "Gothic Age of comics".

Like he had in all of the movies.

And now? And why not? Afterall he used DEEP quotes like "You have a kind of dark side, don't yaa, Selina?" WOW! Sounds absolutely not forced! Romancing the stones!

I suggest you should call tech support for your dvd player. It seems to be skipping scenes.

If you embrace your IQ you will see she survived as many other characters survive dangerous situations. Not because of any super-power.

It was at least hinted that she became some supernatural girl. She started to jump around and do martial arts afterwards.

Selina, in his twisted mind, was convinced it was the fact that she was a cat. But it wasn’t in reality.

Every time I see Selina Kyle moving like a real cat I feel a little bit embarrassed. Like Selina Kyle is supposed to be a human cat

Or they could have searched amongst the old newspapers files.

They aren't too bright, i think that's a fact.

[Superwoman Prime]

No he was not. He started to dedicate his life to help other people. He has never been portrayed disturbed until Burton's Batman came around

So you're saying someone who devotes themself to fighting for justice can't simultaneously struggle with internal demons (Demons being a metaphor here)......

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by TMC1982

Tim Burton himself, admitted that he doesn't read a lot of comic books. So how do you know for sure about his depth of knowledge of Batman?

Tim Burton himself admitted that he read Batman comics in order to do Batman 89. He mentioned The Killing Joke and The Dark Knight Returns apart from the Bob Kane era comics.

Originally Posted by TMC1982

I never said that those aspects shouldn't be apart of Batman's universe

By your original statement: “Tim Burton seemed to think that Batman should be some quirky, neurotic psycho with a death wish, not a heroic adventure, who is more altruistic in his goals.” it seemed like you were.

Originally Posted by TMC1982

My point is that I felt that Tim Burton went way, way overboard with these themes and lack a certain sense of rhyme and reason.

Again, by your post you ruled out heroism when in fact was part of Burton’s Batman. Batman had every reason to be tough against crime and heroic about innocent people.

Originally Posted by TMC1982

If the movies are called "Batman and "Batman Returns", then it would logically, make the most sense to give the most prominence to the title character. That would be like making a Superman film and giving more time and interest developing Lex Luthor.

Or making a movie called King Kong or Jaws and giving the giant gorilla and the shark less screentime than the human characters.

Now, on a second thought, the shark thing worked pretty well.

I still think that is a problem about pre-determined thought. More screentime not always means more prominence.

Originally Posted by TMC1982

I know the actor's name (get a sense of humor while your at it). Just like Beetlejuice played Batman in Tim Burton's films, and Iceman from "Top Gun" and Danny Ocean played Batman in Joel Schumacher's films.

You see then how calling an actor a previous character name unrelated to the movie we’re discussing brings an uncalled feel of bashing to it. Criticism about the movie I can get them. To call Dee Williams “Lando Calrissian” is bashing the election of the actor merely because of some past roles. Which is totally unrelated to your criticism of his race vs the original character’s race. Our next point btw.

Originally Posted by TMC1982

The black Nick Fury was based on the "Ultimates" comics not from a film or television adaption.

So a comic can make such a change but not an adaptation? Any rerason for this biased authorization?

Originally Posted by TMC1982

Two-Face on "Batman: The Animated Series" wasn't African American, he seemed to look more Italian (Scilian).

I have to ask, how is changing Harvey Dent to a Sicilian man is better or more acceptable than to change him to a black man?

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

BTAS Harvey Dent was not black and sicilian it just looked a little bit like that because of the hair style.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by TMC1982

The point of Batman not wanting to resort to killing criminals is because he feared that he would wound up becoming like the man who killed his parents. He didn't want to embody criminal-like methods himself. Did you have a problem with him then, not wanting to kill in Schumacher's films or "Batman Begins"?

On the contrary.

I felt that Batman Forever took that in quite a good way. After some years in the “business” Batman finally got a void feeling out of his crime-fighting career. He learnt that killing the criminals wouldn’t make his pain go away. It took him some years to get to that.

Which leads me to B Begins.

Begins handled the revenge/ non killing aspect brilliantly. The origin story – which was as inaccurate as Burton’s by the way – explained in an excellent way why Bruce was like that. He didn’t born a hero. He did think about revenge a big deal. But it was circumstances what showed him that was not the way. It was brilliant.

But, as I said in another thread, both movies handled the story quite well being completely different circumstances. The fact I love how Batman 89 handled the origin story has never meant I can’t accept a totally different approach as long as it makes sense.

[Superwoman Prime]

Those are pretty full lips.

He is sorta reminiscent of... Jay Leno.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by TMC1982

Where did it say in Batman's first incarnation that the Joker killed his parents?

If you read properly I was merely talking about the killing Batman issue. About that issue I’m right pointing out the Bob Kane era as the influence.

Because for that matter, where’s the comics where Ducard as Ra’s al Ghul are the same? Or where Ra’s is Batman’s original mentor? Or the comics where we meet Rachel Dawes the childhood Bruce’s little friend?

Does that (not being in a comic book) mean those elements didn’t work? No. Well, except for Rachel dawes, but that because of Katie Homes.

But about the killing Batman issue, that DOES have a precedent in comic books.

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

Originally Posted by El Payaso

But about the killing Batman issue, that DOES have a precedent in comic books.

yeah, like Superman, Hawkman, Micky Mouse.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

^ How do those examples have anything to do with that?