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Old 07-01-2008, 04:19 PM   #1
Bubastis
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Th Confused Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

Hear me out. I'm not trying to hate on the movie; I appreciate the things that it did for the Batman Franchise (for the better) and what it means to people. Visually it kicks major ass, Elfman's score still gives me goosebumps, and Jack Nicholson has fun as the joker.

Please, before you flame me, please keep in mind that this is my own personal opinion. OK.

But here's my other feeling on the film, and there are quotes from other people in here. I can't stand Keaton's hollow performance and lack of chemistry with the also hollow Kim Bassinger. (who was only in the film because of her relationship with Jon "Giant Spider" Peters) I hate the idea that Batman exists solely out of revenge for his parents, or that he would be willing to kill the joker with a gun. I hate the lack of any reason to care about any of the characters, I hate the lack of any connection between the moment where Bruce Wayne's parents are shot and Bruce Wayne becoming Batman, I hate the lack of any explanation as to how the Joker's Goons got on top of the church tower, I hate the way one shot from a six-shooter that has inexplicably been hidden in the joker's pant leg can destroy the frickin' bat-plane. I hate the poor characterization of Batman. The goddamn prince songs, to this day, make the film teeth-grittingly dated and unwatchable, as are the sequences of the Joker dancing like a moron to them. I don't know why the Joker feels the necessity to create an ant-batman PR campaign as if he has something to gain by the public hating batman, like they're running for mayor of Gotham. I don't know why Alfred would let Vicki into the batcave, or why Bruce would see anything in her, or why she would see anything in him. I hate her lack of reaction to Bruce Wayne being Batman.

And my big gripe:
The opening scene depicts two thugs mugging a Father, Mother, and son. The scene is clearly set up to be a parallel to the mudding that happened to a young Bruce Wayne. What does Batman do? He beats up the criminals. How are the father, mother, and son any better off than before Batman came along? They're still afraid to be on the streets of Gotham City, their purse is still gone, and the father is still in medical danger. But don't worry, the criminals were frightened by batman and beaten up. Gee, thanks caped crusader. Long-term, criminals are starting to hear about the batman. But would that provide any consolation to a young Bruce Wayne? Uhh...nope.


Again, this is just my personal opinion, but i wanted to get other people's take on it. I watched the flick a day ago in preparation for The Dark Knight, and felt surprisingly hollow, and felt like I had to remind myself to like and enjoy and root for the film.

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Old 07-01-2008, 04:36 PM   #2
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

You say I'm not trying to hate the movie, all I read is I hate this and that basically you do hate it and that's fine by me. I like the movie.

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Old 07-01-2008, 04:50 PM   #3
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

No, "BATMAN" is not overrated...Other CB films like "Begins" and The "Spider-Man" movies on the other hand...IMO of course.

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Old 07-01-2008, 04:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

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You say I'm not trying to hate the movie, all I read is I hate this and that basically you do hate it and that's fine by me. I like the movie.
Yeah, I used the word "hate" in that alot, upon reading it again. I got kinda rant-y as it went on, but the point of saying "I'm not hating on the movie" was to get across that I respect other peoples' opinions

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Old 07-01-2008, 05:00 PM   #5
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

I think Michael Keaton's performance is overrated. Everyone could've been Batman with that big rubber costume. Even Danny DeVito.
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Old 07-01-2008, 05:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

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I hate the idea that Batman exists solely out of revenge for his parents...
I hardly see how you blame the movie for that one.

It's been shown many times in many mediums that had Thomas and Martha Wayne lived, there'd be no Batman.
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I hate the way one shot from a six-shooter that has inexplicably been hidden in the joker's pant leg can destroy the frickin' bat-plane.
That was no six shooter, it was a full on hand cannon (with an exaggerated barrel length), and it most certainly should send a bullet through a plane. The fact that it made the guy stagger backward on pulling the trigger should've made that obvious.

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And my big gripe:
The opening scene depicts two thugs mugging a Father, Mother, and son. The scene is clearly set up to be a parallel to the mudding that happened to a young Bruce Wayne. What does Batman do? He beats up the criminals. How are the father, mother, and son any better off than before Batman came along?
You seem to want Batman to turn into Superman here.

Batman has always been an avenger of evil.
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They're still afraid to be on the streets of Gotham City, their purse is still gone, and the father is still in medical danger. But don't worry, the criminals were frightened by batman and beaten up. Gee, thanks caped crusader. Long-term, criminals are starting to hear about the batman. But would that provide any consolation to a young Bruce Wayne? Uhh...nope.
Dude, the kid's mom is right there with him. How the heck would a guy dressed up like he is making an appearance before them be of any consolation to them at that time. He'd probably scare the hell out of both of them if he went down there. You saw how crowded the nearby street was. The mom was screaming bloody murder. There's no question in my mind that someone heard her and came to help.

....and "young Bruce Wayne?!" COME ON!

There's no reason to believe either parent died.

The kid will be fine, and probably stronger for it in the long run.

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Old 07-01-2008, 05:04 PM   #7
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

As of late I think it's underrated but honestly you're not the only one many people thought it was overrated I'm not one of them BTW but just saying. I think a problem I could be wrong but judging from your post is a contextual one. Many people are looking back at the original CB movies and not understanding that CB movies didn't evolve into being all well thought out and planned till this decade.

The CB movie genre evolved the same way the comic book industry did. At first they were filled with shallow stories that weren't nowhere near as well thought out as today's comics. Stories filled with coincidences and plot holes but were still inventive and very entertaining. They were made to deliver escapism and a good time and the best ones were well crafted at achieving that goal while the worst were unbearable.

By the same logic of your post The Crow could be called shallow because Top Dollar's men like to turn the city they live in to crap without any real explanation in the movie to their obsession with anarchy or how his sister managed to find out everything about the Crow's power. Superman: The Movie could be called shallow and hollow once all the Metropolis stuff begins and there are those who deem it overrated as well but I think both of those are classic movies. The fact is the comic book movie genre has been evolving since the year 2000 so if you're looking at any past CB movie with the mentality of how movies are made today you have every reason to be dissapointed because that was never their intent.

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Old 07-01-2008, 05:08 PM   #8
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

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No, "BATMAN" is not overrated...Other CB films like "Begins" and The "Spider-Man" movies on the other hand...IMO of course.

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I think BB and the second Spider-Man are as well but I don't think the original Spider-Man is. Prior to it no other modern superhero movie had dared spend so much time fleshing out the main character like it did. It reinforced the forgotten STM formula and reintroduced it to a new generation. It showed that the general public had no problem getting to know these comic book characters and their world and seeing them grow on film. Without that film we wouldn't have gotten BB or any of the other origin stories that dropped after it because again prior to it the STM formula had been dead for decades and never adopted by any other superhero film till Spidey.

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Old 07-01-2008, 05:10 PM   #9
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

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I hardly see how you blame the movie for that one.

It's been shown many times in many mediums that had Thomas and Martha Wayne lived, there'd be no Batman.
That was no six shooter, it was a full on hand cannon (with an exaggerated barrel length), and it most certainly should send a bullet through a plane. The fact that it made the guy stagger backward on pulling the trigger should've made that obvious.

You seem to want Batman to turn into Superman here.

Batman has always been an avenger of evil.
Dude, the kid's mom is right there with him. How the heck would a guy dressed up like he is making an appearance before them be of any consolation to them at that time. He'd probably scare the hell out of both of them if he went down there. You saw how crowded the nearby street was. The mom was screaming bloody murder. There's no question in my mind that someone heard her and came to help.
No no no. Batman is out there to prevent other people from suffering the same tradegy. The death of his parents was the birth of the idea, the motivation, but he is not after revenge. Perhaps a little bit, but that's not the main factor (you can even ask Frank MIller, read the Year One Deluxe Hardcover). So watching the family getting robbed... is unfitting.

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Old 07-01-2008, 05:19 PM   #10
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

Although I disagree with you, I do have the feeling sometimes that a lot of people love it the most mainly out of nostalgia.

Of course I'm not speaking for everyone, as some people are bound to love this movie, and I myself like it, but it is true that I've had this impression many times already, that some people like it because it's the first one, or because it's the one they grew up with, or whatever...

I also often hear people say that Nicholson's Joker was the best joker there could ever be, not because he was good, but because his name's Jack Nicholson. Well, let them be.

Now, my opinion is that it's a very good movie, although lacking a bit of action here and there. I like how they portrayed Batman as ruthless, although I didn't like that they made him THAT ruthless (killing thugs like he doesn't care about other people's lives anymore). I also didn't like the fact that they turned the Batmobile into a war vehicle, with lethal armament all over the place, and that he actually uses this armament against people.

The only other thing that I could say is that it's more a Burton movie than it is a Batman movie.

Other than that, I love Jack Nicholson as the Joker, Keaton as Batman, I love the scene where the Joker dances (to Prince is it?) and ruins the art gallery, I love the finale.

But I like Returns better.

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Old 07-01-2008, 05:22 PM   #11
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

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I think BB and the second Spider-Man are as well but I don't think the original Spider-Man is. Prior to it no other modern superhero movie had dared spend so much time fleshing out the main character like it did. It reinforced the forgotten STM formula and reintroduced it to a new generation. It showed that the general public had no problem getting to know these comic book characters and their world and seeing them grow on film. Without that film we wouldn't have gotten BB or any of the other origin stories that dropped after it because again prior to it the STM formula had been dead for decades and never adopted by any other superhero film till Spidey.
I was really commenting on "Spiderman" the franchise...as a whole. If we're getting specific then yeah..."Spider-Man 2" is overrated. The first installment is my favorite of the three.

And I agree with the STM formula comments...man, "Superman: The Movie" is so brilliant.

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Old 07-01-2008, 05:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

While I did grow up on this movie since I was a kid when it hit theatres the reason for me is not nostalgia. I know you said that probably isn't the case for everybody and I'm just letting you know you were right. So why do I prefer this to all the other live action Batman movies relased so far? well it matches my sensibilities as a fan more that's why. My favorite Batman incarnations are the first year (1939) and the Englehart/Rogers work from the 70's. This movie contained many elements of both and because of that it really appeals to me as a Batman fan.

It was a marriage of those eras while still paying tribute to the rest of the mythos particularly how the Joker was a blend of the 40's, 50's 60's and '70's Joker with some early 80's thrown in for good measure and the media aspect borrowed from DKR while still being able to function as a stand alone film. It also managed to completely make me believe in the movie's universe without any of it feeling artificial because of scripted sounding dialogue (a beef I have with BB) or familiar scenery. Until the next live action Batman film comes along that manages to do that this will be my number one.

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Old 07-01-2008, 05:29 PM   #13
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

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I was really commenting on "Spiderman" the franchise...as a whole. If we're getting specific then yeah..."Spider-Man 2" is overrated. The first installment is my favorite of the three.

And I agree with the STM formula comments...man, "Superman: The Movie" is so brilliant.

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That it is my friend and yeah the Spidey trilogy as a whole didn't live up to it's potential.

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Old 07-01-2008, 05:39 PM   #14
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

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I hate the lack of any connection between the moment where Bruce Wayne's parents are shot and Bruce Wayne becoming Batman
What?

Quote:
I hate the lack of any explanation as to how the Joker's Goons got on top of the church tower
I would imagine they walked up the stairs.

Quote:
I hate the way one shot from a six-shooter that has inexplicably been hidden in the joker's pant leg can destroy the frickin' bat-plane.
It's obviously not a normal weapon. It is clearly an explosive shell. The fact that it explodes when it hits the plane should tell you as much. It doesn't take much to take down a small plane.

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I hate the poor characterization of Batman.
Not sure what that means, but ok...

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The goddamn prince songs, to this day, make the film teeth-grittingly dated and unwatchable, as are the sequences of the Joker dancing like a moron to them.
Riiight.

Quote:
I don't know why the Joker feels the necessity to create an ant-batman PR campaign as if he has something to gain by the public hating batman, like they're running for mayor of Gotham.
Why does The Joker do anything?

Quote:
I don't know why Alfred would let Vicki into the batcave, or why Bruce would see anything in her, or why she would see anything in him. I hate her lack of reaction to Bruce Wayne being Batman.
Then you clearly don't understand Alfred's role in BATMAN, Bruce, or the character of Vicki Vale as she was presented.

Anyway...

In order for something to be overrated, it first has to be generally REALLY highly thought of. To most people, BATMAN is a fun movie that gets a lot about the characters and his world right compared to past interpretations, and a movie that made people realize Batman could be something of a serious character. It was a cultural event in 1989, and a lot of Batman fans have a soft spot for it for obvious reasons. But no, it's not overrated. I rarely see people calling it the best movie ever or any of that kind of thing.

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Old 07-01-2008, 05:44 PM   #15
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

I honsetly dont think Batman 89 is overrated at all.

Especially on this board.


But can we please avoid this subject for the gazilionth time.

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Old 07-01-2008, 06:02 PM   #16
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

Begins and TDK trailer made me realize how bad the old batman movies were.

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Old 07-01-2008, 06:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

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I think Michael Keaton's performance is overrated. Everyone could've been Batman with that big rubber costume. Even Danny DeVito.
"
I totally disagree the way the role ended up on screen was a Batman that relied on body language to be his dialogue. The approach to his performance was akin to that of a silent film actor's. He had to sell a lot of varying emotions with just mannerisms and his eyes. Everybody cannot do that and anybody who could manage that is a very good actor because it's a skill not many actors posses.

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Old 07-01-2008, 10:18 PM   #18
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

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...The death of his parents was the birth of the idea, the motivation, but he is not after revenge. Perhaps a little bit...
No, not 'just a little bit.' A whole heck of a lot. Watch BTAS. He even says "I wanted revenge!" in one episode.

Revenge/Justice/Whateveryawannacallit is a huge part of why he does what he does. It's why he never stops hunting people who've done wrong. There are numerous examples of this in both animated and comic book form. "Wonder Woman: The Hiketeia" is another example.

Most stories are him doing detective work, to find the evil doer once the evil has been done. The only prevention going on there is making sure that evil doer does no further harm.

Suppose some character committed murder, and Batman knew there was an absolute guarantee that the person would never cause, or even want to cause any more death after that. Do you think Batman would continue to pursue this person, or just walk away?

He most certainly is an avenger of evil; 'has been, from the start.

Campy 60s Batman is the exception.

Quote:
...but that's not the main factor (you can even ask Frank MIller, read the Year One Deluxe Hardcover)...
I'm not convinced Frank Miller doesn't see Batman as an avenger of evil. For the sake of argument however, let's say that is the case.

So what? One writer's opinion up against the material of a great many others. It makes more sense to side with the majority.

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So watching the family getting robbed... is unfitting.
I don't see what this is supposed to mean.

If he could have flown down at super speed to stop the mugging, I'm sure he would have. Unfortunately , the guy was way up on a skyscraper at the time.

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Old 07-01-2008, 10:25 PM   #19
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

I think Begins is overrated in some ways but I appreciate what it's done. I haven't see B89 in a while, I'll have to rent it soon.

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Old 07-02-2008, 07:09 AM   #20
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

In reference to the Joker shooting down the Batwing.

Any aircraft is going to made of lightweight materials and certainly would not be an armoured tank like the Batmobile.

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Old 07-02-2008, 07:31 AM   #21
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

Is this guy complaining that Batman didn't go preform CPR and trauma counseling to these tourists? I would seriously hate to see you write and direct a Batman movie. Instead of seeing Batman running and jumping off buildings and kicking peoples asses, we will see him sitting in a room with a bunch of people in a circle crying and sharing there traumatic experiences with each other while sipping on coffee in Styrofoam cups. It will be like Dr Phil... Dressed as Batman... For 2 hours..

And come on, Batman isn't here to give you some bandaids and then collect all the stuff that was stolen, Batman is here to beat the hell out of the bad guys and then leave them an unconscious pile on the ground for the cops to come and clean it up..

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Old 07-02-2008, 08:05 AM   #22
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

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Begins and TDK trailer made me realize how bad the old batman movies were.


There'd BE no "Begins" and "TDK" without the original Batman movies. There'd be no "TAS" without the original Batman movies. The entire 'dark hero' movement wouldn't have occurred (at least as strongly) without the original Batman movies.

Hell, Batman would still be single-handedly identified with Adam West if not for the original films.

"Begins" and "TDK," while impressive in their own right, will NEVER match the impact made by "Batman" and "Batman Returns."

Oh...and the "oldest" of the initial films isn't even 20 yet...so actually they aren't "old" at all.

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Old 07-02-2008, 10:25 AM   #23
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

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Begins and TDK trailer made me realize how bad the old batman movies were.
I have also come to this realization. But I do like the B89 - BF and watch them once in a while. I just like Begins alot more than the previous films.

Also, I think not only is Batman overrated, so is Jack's Joker. I cant stand the attitude/ego, dialogue, & esp. the dancing.


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Old 07-02-2008, 11:54 AM   #24
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

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There'd BE no "Begins" and "TDK" without the original Batman movies. There'd be no "TAS" without the original Batman movies. The entire 'dark hero' movement wouldn't have occurred (at least as strongly) without the original Batman movies.

Hell, Batman would still be single-handedly identified with Adam West if not for the original films.

"Begins" and "TDK," while impressive in their own right, will NEVER match the impact made by "Batman" and "Batman Returns."

Oh...and the "oldest" of the initial films isn't even 20 yet...so actually they aren't "old" at all.


You ****ing right, without old franchise dying we wouldn't have a Batman films made now. it took WB 8 years !997-2005) make Batman Begins. I enjoy watching Batman 89, Batman Returns, Batman Forever & even Batman & Robin. (well soometimes B&R)

Damn kids these days don't know to respect original stuff.

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Old 07-02-2008, 12:12 PM   #25
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Default Re: Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

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Originally Posted by Two-Face View Post
You ****ing right, without old franchise dying we wouldn't have a Batman films made now. it took WB 8 years !997-2005) make Batman Begins. I enjoy watching Batman 89, Batman Returns, Batman Forever & even Batman & Robin. (well soometimes B&R)

Damn kids these days don't know to respect original stuff.
Well no, it's not so much that people should respect the original films because they killed the franchise and paved the way for "Begins" and "TDK"...the original flms should be respected for revolutionizing the genre in their own right.

Anyone who thinks the original "Batman" movies were bad is ignorant. Burton's films are spectacular...And unlike "Begins," THOSE films didn't have to spoon-feed the audience with explination, realism and easy-to-follow, see-it-from-a-mile-away plot.

Begins = "The Batmobile is a prototype Wayne Enterprises Military Vehicle that can jump gaps"

B89 = "The Batmobile...is the f**king Batmobile. Who gives a s**t where it came from? It's really fast and it looks awesome...DEAL WITH IT!"

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