List of Things Batman Returns got Right/Wrong

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by omerhead

In the Bob Kane Batman comic books, he killed sometimes but because he had no choice

He had a choice, Batman could have hit them with his gas capsules that would have put them to sleep (which he would do occasionally), but he also coldly killed criminals. Here's Batman killing Dr. Death's assistant Mikhal in Detective Comics #30:

Batman killed in just about every issue. Just read the Batman Chronicles. Batman killed in Detective #27, 28, 29, 30, 32, 33, 34, 35, 37 and Batman #1, and that's just in Batman Chronicles volume one.

[The Navigator]

Best kill ever.

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by omerhead

I don't think the Catwoman in Batman Returns was true to the comic books.

She is. Catwoman's origin in Batman Returns is true to her original Golden Age origin in which she was introverted, then survived a crash, but suffered from amnesia. Thereafter she became Catwoman by releasing her formerly repressed inner-self, and all her inhibitions. The version of Catwoman's origin involving the crash (a death and resurrection motif) and amnesia has more depth. This origin suggests that Kyle had a dual personality, and that her amnesia released her dark side, leading her not only to turn criminal, but to heighten her sexuality.

[omerhead]

I don't like Frank Millers portrayal of Batman but I really like Dennis 'O Neil, Bob Kane and Jeph Loeb's portrayal of Batman. B89 was a little bit gothic and Batman Returns was all out gothic, also screenwriter of both films were different.

[omerhead]

Originally Posted by theMan-Bat

He had a choice, Batman could have hit them with his gas capsules that would have put them to sleep (which he would do occasionally), but he also coldly killed criminals. Here's Batman killing Dr. Death's assistant Mikhal in Detective Comics #30:

Batman killed in just about every issue. Just read the Batman Chronicles. Batman killed in Detective #27, 28, 29, 30, 32, 33, 34, 35, 37 and Batman #1, and that's just in Batman Chronicles volume one.

If Batman didn't kill him, Mikhal would have killed Batman in a second.

[omerhead]

Originally Posted by MrQuinn

It was also because he basically made her Batman and Bruce's equal counterpart. If she was just a thief...then what would that duality romance revolve around?
Because his Batman was a little more twisted, so was his Catwoman.
I think it was phenomenal and I hold Returns pretty high on the "coolest Batman things list".

I don't really like the twisted Batman either.

[omerhead]

Originally Posted by Dark Knight90!

That makes no sense to me.

I know if I was making a movie... creating/adapting a character who was 'simply a thief in a catsuit'... wouldn't get me creatively excited one bit.


Burton turned Catwoman into a multi-layered and tragically twisted character and she is the better for it. I actually think it was his greatest contribution to the batman franchise generally.

Doesn't that make the Batman Returns Catwoman a Two-Face wannabe.

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by omerhead

If Batman didn't kill him, Mikhal would have killed Batman in a second.

There are several ways Batman could have taken Mikhal down without killing him, Batman could have knocked him out with a Batarang.

[omerhead]

Originally Posted by theMan-Bat

She is. Catwoman's origin in Batman Returns is true to her original Golden Age origin in which she was introverted, then survived a crash, but suffered from amnesia. Thereafter she became Catwoman by releasing her formerly repressed inner-self, and all her inhibitions. The version of Catwoman's origin involving the crash (a death and resurrection motif) and amnesia has more depth. This origin suggests that Kyle had a dual personality, and that her amnesia released her dark side, leading her not only to turn criminal, but to heighten her sexuality.

I found the original Catwoman comic book origin on www.dcdatabase.com

here's the Catwoman origin that was written on the dcdatabase.

Selina Kyle's early life was defined by tragedy. When she was just a girl, her brutalized mother Maria committed suicide and her violent father Brian drank himself to death not long after. Separated from her younger sister Magdalena and remanded to the Sprang Hall Juvenile Detention Center, an abusive state home for orphaned or delinquent girls, she opted instead to take her chances on the streets of Gotham City. Amid the crime and corruption of the poverty-stricken East End district, she survived through petty theft. Sharp wits and an amazing natural skill as a gymnast led to her becoming the slickest cat burglar the Gotham City Police Department had ever dealt with. To protect herself, she studied martial arts. Later ex-heavyweight champ Ted Grant (Wildcat) taught her boxing. For a time, she was the most accomplished thief nobody knew. She was also one of the most generous, spreading her ill-gotten gains among the downtrodden and destitute of the East End. She would have continued to rob with impunity if not for the Batman. Spying the Caped Crusader from her window on one of his first outings, she watched him in action and was suitably inspired to take up her own costume when prowling the Gotham night.

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by omerhead

I found the original Catwoman comic book origin on www.dcdatabase.com

here's the Catwoman origin that was written on the dcdatabase.

Selina Kyle's early life was defined by tragedy. When she was just a girl, her brutalized mother Maria committed suicide and her violent father Brian drank himself to death not long after. Separated from her younger sister Magdalena and remanded to the Sprang Hall Juvenile Detention Center, an abusive state home for orphaned or delinquent girls, she opted instead to take her chances on the streets of Gotham City. Amid the crime and corruption of the poverty-stricken East End district, she survived through petty theft. Sharp wits and an amazing natural skill as a gymnast led to her becoming the slickest cat burglar the Gotham City Police Department had ever dealt with. To protect herself, she studied martial arts. Later ex-heavyweight champ Ted Grant (Wildcat) taught her boxing. For a time, she was the most accomplished thief nobody knew. She was also one of the most generous, spreading her ill-gotten gains among the downtrodden and destitute of the East End. She would have continued to rob with impunity if not for the Batman. Spying the Caped Crusader from her window on one of his first outings, she watched him in action and was suitably inspired to take up her own costume when prowling the Gotham night.

That is not the original Golden Age Catwoman origin by creator Bill Finger from Batman #62 (1950). That's a Modern Age version by Doug Moench from Catwoman #0 (1994).

[omerhead]

Originally Posted by theMan-Bat

That is not the original Golden Age Catwoman origin by creator Bill Finger from Batman #62 (1950). That's a Modern Age version by Doug Moench from Catwoman #0 (1994).

I didn't know that, I'll just research Batman #62.

[omerhead]

I think Nolan can do a better job at tweaking the golden age origin than Burton did, Burton put too much emphasis on making it dark than realism.

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by omerhead

I think Nolan can do a better job at tweaking the golden age origin than Burton did, Burton put too much emphasis on making it dark than realism.

Nolan puts too much emphasis on trying to make the comic book characters more realistic. Nolan would decide that amnesia is not realistic enough. She would just be a woman seeking thrills. That's a symptom of Nolan's "everything must be grounded" approach. Batman's world is grounded enough and trying to ground it even more can be detrimental to the characters. Burton's approach was the "not likely, but possible" approach, which is the same approach in Batman comic books.

[omerhead]

I just don't like Burton's vision on comic book characters in my opinion, and I think you're exaggerating Nolan's realistic approach.

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by omerhead

I just don't like Burton's vision on comic book characters in my opinion,

Fair enough. I understand that Tim Burton's version is not geared to everyone's taste.

and I think you're exaggerating Nolan's realistic approach.

I don't think so. I really can't see Nolan keeping Selina's amnesiac origin in his version.

[omerhead]

Amnesia rarely happens in reality, Nolan might use it.

Check out the wikipedia page for amnesia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesia

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by omerhead

Amnesia rarely happens in reality, Nolan might use it.

Check out the wikipedia page for amnesia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesia

I'm aware of that, I doubt Nolan will use it because it rarely happens to people.

[omerhead]

Even though it happens rarely, but it's still realistic. some weird things do occur in reality.

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by omerhead

But it does happen.

Rarely. That's Burton's "not likely, but possible" approach. As with Joker, Nolan would want to distinguish his Catwoman from Burton's as much as possible.

[omerhead]

Besides the duality origin tweak, cat licks & team up with the Penguin there was nothing else wrong with the Batman Returns Catwoman.

[omerhead]

Also in the whole film I felt all the major characters were just playing a game, Penguin tried to kill Batman, Max Shrek & Catwoman, Batman tried to kill Penguin & Catwoman, Catwoman tried kill Max Shrek and wanted revenge from Batman by teaming up with the Penguin and got betrayed by Penguin. What the hell is that all about, does that happen in comic books.

[MrQuinn]

Originally Posted by omerhead

Also in the whole film I felt all the major characters were just playing a game, Penguin tried to kill Batman, Max Shrek & Catwoman, Batman tried to kill Penguin & Catwoman, Catwoman tried kill Max Shrek and wanted revenge from Batman by teaming up with the Penguin and got betrayed by Penguin. What the hell is that all about, does that happen in comic books.

It's called...... "plot".

[The Guard]

She is. Catwoman's origin in Batman Returns is true to her original Golden Age origin in which she was introverted, then survived a crash, but suffered from amnesia. Thereafter she became Catwoman by releasing her formerly repressed inner-self, and all her inhibitions. The version of Catwoman's origin involving the crash (a death and resurrection motif) and amnesia has more depth. This origin suggests that Kyle had a dual personality, and that her amnesia released her dark side, leading her not only to turn criminal, but to heighten her sexuality.

It definitely has faithful elements to it. In later versions of the amnesia origin, she was also abused (as Selina was by Shreck).

I found the original Catwoman comic book origin on www.dcdatabase.com

As someone has already pointed out...that origin came after the BATMAN RETURNS one. The BATMAN RETURNS one is based on the Golden/Silver age origins. The one you're referring to is more along the lines of the Catwoman Frank Miller started creating, but he never got that far into it. The version you speak of, like the mob boss Penguin, didn't even exist for two years after BATMAN RETURNS, and certainly wasn't around when RETURNS was being conceived circa 1990/1991.

[omerhead]

I don't like Frank Miller and Tim Burton's take on the Batman universe. I prefer Bob Kane, Bill Finger, Dennis 'O Neil, Neal Adams, Christopher Nolan, Jeph Loeb and Steve Englehart's take on it.

[El Payaso]

That's nothing BR got "wrong" though.