List of Things Batman Returns got Right/Wrong

[Kevin Roegele]

What should remembered si that 'realism' is just a trend in movies right now. A very popular one. But just a trend. It will eventually be replaced by the next one. And the next Batdirector will give us his vision of Batman.

[ShadowBoxing]

Originally Posted by omerhead

I don't like Frank Miller and Tim Burton's take on the Batman universe. I prefer Bob Kane, Bill Finger, Dennis 'O Neil, Neal Adams, Christopher Nolan, Jeph Loeb and Steve Englehart's take on it.

That's kind of ironic, doncha'think?

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by omerhead

Also in the whole film I felt all the major characters were just playing a game, Penguin tried to kill Batman, Max Shrek & Catwoman, Batman tried to kill Penguin & Catwoman, Catwoman tried kill Max Shrek and wanted revenge from Batman by teaming up with the Penguin and got betrayed by Penguin. What the hell is that all about, does that happen in comic books.

Yes, comic books often have plotlines, which presence you find so puzzling.

Originally Posted by omerhead

I think Nolan can do a better job at tweaking the golden age origin than Burton did, Burton put too much emphasis on making it dark than realism.

Because we all know that Batman is all about reality and nothing about darkness.

Originally Posted by omerhead

Even though it happens rarely, but it's still realistic. some weird things do occur in reality.

Much like deformities (Penguin).

[El Payaso]

edit

[omerhead]

Originally Posted by El Payaso

Yes, comic books often have plotlines, which presence you find so puzzling.

It's too over puzzling than the comic books.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by omerhead

It's too over puzzling than the comic books.

Maybe because it's not a comic book.

[Cain]

Yes because it's a film and not a comic book and film's require a little more thought put into them because they cater to a much wider and varied audience than comics do.

Here's your answer this film is modern german expressionism, german expressionism applies to a subgenre of german cinema where in the principle characters and even the environment represent different facets of the main character. Penguin, Max Schreck and Catwoman all symbolize different aspects of Batman/Bruce Wayne. Gotham City's small scale in this film represents how clutterd Batman/Bruce Wayne's psyche is at this point in his life. They all clash and collide with each other because no matter how much they try each aspect of his personality cannot reconcile with the other in the end. This is also why in the following movie he is still conflicted psychologically until the end it's the mid point of an arc that flows throughout all 3 Batman films from the 89 -95 years.

[omerhead]

It's Batman not some extremely psychological thriller that Returns made it.

[ShadowBoxing]

Originally Posted by Kevin Roegele

What should remembered si that 'realism' is just a trend in movies right now. A very popular one. But just a trend. It will eventually be replaced by the next one. And the next Batdirector will give us his vision of Batman.

Totally...

Originally Posted by omerhead

I think Nolan can do a better job at tweaking the golden age origin than Burton did, Burton put too much emphasis on making it dark than realism.

You see, and this is what kills me. "Realism", especially in case of Batman, isn't really realistic. You want true "realism", rent The Godfather, or Schlinder's List, otherwise what you're watching isn't realism. At it's heart, Batman is a comic, Nolan only creates illusions of realism, the only problem I have is they take it too far. They try to imagine it totally in our world, but in the end they still have to make those leaps of faith into the world of fantasy. Consequently I find Nolan's take to be at odds with itself. It does this "realistic" and "gritty" tone, but most of the events and characters are as implausible as the one's from Burton's era, or even West's era.

Ultimately for a comic film to work for me it has to embody the comic and be good. Marvel proved to me, with Iron Man and The Incredible Hulk that the audiences can accept a more comic booky world, and quite frankly, it didn't seem to me any less "realistic" than Nolan. The thing about fantasy is the writer makes their own rules, and the movie is expected to follow them. Lord of the Rings for example, has it's own world which operates different from our own, yet the film is able to maintain the world in which it operates. Batman Begins to me is kind of like Enchanted if that movie took itself seriously. It tries to shoehorn a fantasy character into a realistic setting, the only problem is while on the surface that is fine, scratch at it a little bit and like a house of cards it falls apart.

That's one of the reasons I like BTAS and Burton so much. They were realistic in the sense that physics seemed to matter most of the time, but they allowed themselves to explore the world of fantasy without limiting themselves. Making it more fun, but also more believeable. See if all I have to do is accept that certain people can fly, or turn into green giants, or make advanced tech, then I don't need a bunch of pointless explanation when it comes to revealing how they became who they are. Batman Begins was all about demystifying the character, and bringing him down to a level of you and me. In a way the reason "where does he get those wonderful toys" is such a memorable line is because we don't have to know. The movie makes clear Batman is no ordinary man, despite what we see on the outside, there is some mythic and unexplainable quality about him.

Once you use realism to strip all those elements away you lose, ultimately, what makes comics so interesting in the first place.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by omerhead

It's Batman not some extremely psychological thriller that Returns made it.

Improving things is not a reprovable thing for a movie.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by omerhead

It's Batman not some extremely psychological thriller that Returns made it.

Man please the whole purpose of that arc is Batman in itself it's something that has thematically happened in the comics as well. Psychology has become a big aspect of the mythos. Plus once again this is a film it's supposed to cater to a wider audience with different sensibilities than just comic fans and this is coming from a lifelong comics fan. In a film you need to have a hook and themes to engage the viewer beyond just the obvious.

[omerhead]

Originally Posted by ShadowBoxing

Totally...

You see, and this is what kills me. "Realism", especially in case of Batman, isn't really realistic. You want true "realism", rent The Godfather, or Schlinder's List, otherwise what you're watching isn't realism. At it's heart, Batman is a comic, Nolan only creates illusions of realism, the only problem I have is they take it too far. They try to imagine it totally in our world, but in the end they still have to make those leaps of faith into the world of fantasy. Consequently I find Nolan's take to be at odds with itself. It does this "realistic" and "gritty" tone, but most of the events and characters are as implausible as the one's from Burton's era, or even West's era.

Ultimately for a comic film to work for me it has to embody the comic and be good. Marvel proved to me, with Iron Man and The Incredible Hulk that the audiences can accept a more comic booky world, and quite frankly, it didn't seem to me any less "realistic" than Nolan. The thing about fantasy is the writer makes their own rules, and the movie is expected to follow them. Lord of the Rings for example, has it's own world which operates different from our own, yet the film is able to maintain the world in which it operates. Batman Begins to me is kind of like Enchanted if that movie took itself seriously. It tries to shoehorn a fantasy character into a realistic setting, the only problem is while on the surface that is fine, scratch at it a little bit and like a house of cards it falls apart.

That's one of the reasons I like BTAS and Burton so much. They were realistic in the sense that physics seemed to matter most of the time, but they allowed themselves to explore the world of fantasy without limiting themselves. Making it more fun, but also more believeable. See if all I have to do is accept that certain people can fly, or turn into green giants, or make advanced tech, then I don't need a bunch of pointless explanation when it comes to revealing how they became who they are. Batman Begins was all about demystifying the character, and bringing him down to a level of you and me. In a way the reason "where does he get those wonderful toys" is such a memorable line is because we don't have to know. The movie makes clear Batman is no ordinary man, despite what we see on the outside, there is some mythic and unexplainable quality about him.

Once you use realism to strip all those elements away you lose, ultimately, what makes comics so interesting in the first place.

Besides the theme score and the batgrapple, BTAS is way better than the Burton Batman films.

[ShadowBoxing]

Originally Posted by omerhead

Besides the theme score and the batgrapple, BTAS is way better than the Burton Batman films.

BTAS is better than anything DC has done in multimedia to date, really.

[omerhead]

Check this Batman Returns review out written by a real die hard Batman fan.

http://www.batman-on-film.com/opinio...rnsreview.html

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by omerhead

Check this Batman Returns review out written by a real die hard Batman fan.

http://www.batman-on-film.com/opinio...rnsreview.html

A rather reading a review by a diehard cinema fan.

The review can be summed up in the guy's words: "BATMAN RETURNS was nothing like I expected," which, again, says nothing about what the film got "wrong."

[omerhead]

Originally Posted by El Payaso

A rather reading a review by a diehard cinema fan.

The review can be summed up in the guy's words: "BATMAN RETURNS was nothing like I expected," which, again, says nothing about what the film got "wrong."

But then there is criticism in the review.

[Jack O Lantern]

A lot of his complaints come out of him misuderstanding aspects of the film. He complains that Batman is barely on screen; but the shadow of Batman is cast over the whole film because, as people have already explained, the three villians repsenting an indivdual piece of Batman's mind.

[Cain]

By a guy who understands comics more than he does film clearly evidenced by him thinking BR had no plot and such. That's why I don't take your average fanboys opinion on film seriously they don't know how to distinguish each medium they swear they have to adhere to the same rules. Also he has done nothing to show me in the history of his site that he has bothered to really sit down with multiple Batman titles from before the 70's. But Jett is such a hialriously bad writer that I don't even take his opinion seriously even when I do agree with it.

[TruerToTheCore]

"Batman Returns" is HORRIBLY written. You may like the movie, but it's a story mess. They should have taken the script with the "Treasures under Wayne Manor".

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by omerhead

Check this Batman Returns review out written by a real die hard Batman fan.

http://www.batman-on-film.com/opinio...rnsreview.html

What makes him more of a die hard fan than the rest of us? What makes his opinion more valid? Because he has it on BOF?

LOL!

[TruerToTheCore]

Originally Posted by ShadowBoxing

That's kind of ironic, doncha'think?

exactly why?

[omerhead]

I don't like Batman Returns, just like not everyone listens to Goth music.

[The Guard]

"Batman Returns" is HORRIBLY written. You may like the movie, but it's a story mess. They should have taken the script with the "Treasures under Wayne Manor".

Horribly written in what way? Elaborate.

After reading his RETURNS diatribe yet again...I will never understand Jett. He *****es about things that aren't faithful the nature of the comics, and then when they are...he pretty much *****es some more. He loves BATMAN, and then he hates BATMAN RETURNS for things BATMAN had "wrong" with it, too. He condemns the grotesque nature of RETURNS, but Nolan's Joker comes along and...you get the idea.

His "Batman film in name only argument" is hilarious. BATMAN RETURNS has a ton of Batman comic book elements to it, both faithful and inspired by, and in terms of story type and tone.

[theMan-Bat]

Exactly! Excellent post, Guard!

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by omerhead

I don't like Batman Returns, just like not everyone listens to Goth music.

That doesn't mean Gothic music gets anything "wrong."