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Secondly, Frank isn't all on his own screaming "It's a lie. I and I alone, only me know the truth!" Frank Miller has stayed true to the Superman Concepts as depicted by John Byrne and Superman's creator's Siegel & Shuster. As seen in The Dark Knight Returns, Miller's Clark Kent displays confidence like John Byrne's version. ![]() ![]() And the Golden Age Siegel & Shuster Clark Kent was quite confident. The portrayal of Clark in both the Fleischer cartoons and The Adventures of Superman TV show starring George Reeves reflect that. ![]() Unlike the Silver Age/Bronze Age nerves Mr. Sensitive Clark Kent which went beyond "mild mannered" status and straight into "wimp" mode. ![]() As seen in The Dark Knight Returns, Miller's Superman was obedient to President Ronald Reagan and so was John Byrne's Superman as seen in Legends. ![]() Miller's Superman is a deputized public servant. Byrne's Superman was appointed special deputy by the mayor of Metropolis in Man of Steel #4. Miller's Superman is not friends with Batman and neither was Byrne's Superman as seen in Man of Steel #3. As seem in The Dark Knight Returns, Miller's Superman is incredibly powerful but not invulnerable. A nuclear blast almost kills him. Byrne's Superman is also not invulnerable. Neither was Siegel & Shuster's. Weisinger's Superman is nearly invulnerable. Miller's Superman is not super-intelligent, and neither is Byrne's, nor was Siegel & Shuster's Golden Age Superman. Weisinger's Silver Age Superman is super-intelligent. Miller's Superman is an all American farm boy at heart, and so was Byrne's. Someone whose home is Earth and whose identity is solidly formed by his adoptive parents' values, without displaying any desire to return to Krypton. Siegel & Shuster's Superman displayed no desire to return to Krypton. Unlike Wesinger's Superman unhappy, feeling out of place, lonely, mopping and pining for Krypton. Miller's Superman is romantically involved with Wonder Woman, and so was Byrne's. ![]() ![]() In All-Star Batman & Robin Superman doesn't fly. He runs faster than a locomotive, which is a tribute to the original Siegel & Shuster Superman. And as seen in DK2, Miller's Luthor is also true to Luthor as depicted by Byrne. A seriously creepy, cruel and manipulative mastermind operating secretly behind a mask of respectability -- secretly manipulating others to his ends. One of the richest men in the world. And easily one of the most powerful.
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#102 | |
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You can point at as many similarities as you like but it is in "NO WAY" proof of a connection. And the introduction of characters from an older story into a new one is also in "NO WAY" proof of a connection between the universe.There's no way of telling that those characters arent just alternate universe counterparts of the characters in TDKR. Look at the current JSA arc and the inclusion of "A" Kingdom come Superman for an example of this. I can sit here and point out quite a few character portrayal and plot inconsistencies that leave any of Millers statement in question. First and foremost would be the inclusion of young Barbra Gordan into Franks the All Star Universe.
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#103 | |
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I wouldnt call that "romantically involved". But I could be wrong about it being 1 kiss.
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![]() ![]() In Superman #7 Clark tries to get in touch with Wonder Woman by calling the Boston Globe. He thinks to himself, "I feel like a schoolboy calling the prom queen for a date! Am I acting crazy or what? I can't seem to get her out of my thoughts." In Wonder Woman #8 Julia Kapatelis writes in her journal, "Most interesting is the strange silence that would come over Diana whenever I mentioned Superman. She would not talk about him -- as if some unspoken secret existed between them." In Wonder Woman #16 Diana walks into Vanessa's room, Julia Kapatelis's daughter, sees the new Superman poster Julia had just gotten and says, "Vanessa, I've seen how you feel about Barry--! Perhaps you are the only one I can speak to about this...In my dreams he is so like a God." Vanessa says, "You're kidding!?! You mean you've got the hots for Superman?!?" Diana says, "I am merely saying I cannot explain the feeling that comes over me when I think of him..." Vanessa says, "Diana, that's great! It means you're in love!! I mean, Superman is perfect for you! So when are you going to tell him--? I mean if Superman feels the same way?" So Wonder Woman's publicist Myndi Mayer calls Clark Kent at the Daily Planet and Kent says he's geting his friend Superman on the phone and he and Diana arrange a date for the weekend. In Action Comics #600 they meet and kiss and hold hands and fly together. I'd say they were romantically involved. ![]() ![]()
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#105 | |
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They shared 1 kiss.....I can now add they held hands. Simple fact every thing you provided only proves that if given a chance, they may have had a relationship. They obviously had feelings for each other. But nether really did anything about it. Sorry but none of the facts point to them being "romantically involved". It only proves that they "Could" have been romantically involved if they allowed them selfs not that they were.
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#106 | ||||
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“Anything I come up with about any of these characters is DKU,” Miller said. In his Dark Knight work, Miller has given readers a glimpse into the twilight years of Batman’s career. In Batman: Year One, he’s shared the beginning of the Batman saga. So where does All-Star Batman fall in his Batman time-table? “Year Three. Bats is feeling his oats—very young, maybe acting a little crazy, but he knows exactly what he's doing. He's just a bit sloppier about doing it than he's going to eventually get.” - Frank Miller. http://forum.newsarama.com/showthrea...threadid=27218 The All-Star Batman & Robin, the Boy Wonder Volume 1 forward in the front from DC Editor Bob Schreck states ..."that All Star B&R "IS" the prequel to Frank's Dark Knight." When the DC Editor says it's so and the writer says it's so..... it's so ! Quote:
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It is Earth 22 that is home to "A Kingdom Come" like universe. It is not the same universe or earth that the "Kingdom Come" mini and its sequil stories was about. Quote:
It would fit with one of Barbra's many older origins but so far theres no indication that she is adopted. And even if she is it wouldnt have been that long ago and it would be too soon [imo] for her to be so freely calling James and Barbra, Mom and Dad. Quote:
For all we know that sat on a sofa at opposites sides and watched TV. I'm not trying to argue anything other that we dont know enough to say they were romantically involved and implying such is a mistake. Now if they did show or refer to the date in some other issue ether I dont remember or missed it but for years I've seen a few people make this or a simlar statement about JB's Superman and Wonderwoman being romantically involved but no one has been able to provide definitive proof of it actually happening. Now if someone has proof fine....I'm open to seeing it and to be honest I would rather like the idea. I loved how it worked out for them in Kingdom come. But as I said there's no evidence to surport saying that JB's Superman was romantically involved with Wonderwoman.
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#109 | ||||
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![]() It’s a year later in All-Star. ![]() Quote:
I loved how it worked out for them in Kingdom Come, too. And I love how Frank Miller has them romantically linked in All-Star Batman & Robin and DK2 as well.
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And so far it doesnt seem like she's adopted.granted it is something that could come out later but it wouldnt be very inconsistent. Quote:
Anytime you add the worded "involved" into a statement it implies a greater degree of activity in the topic being spoken of. Same here.
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All Star Batman and Year One in one strict and tight continuity doesn't make much sense. The tone is too different.
And even with DKR it doesn't really work, because in All Star Batman is MUCH worse than in DKR and the point in DKR is his raised violence because he broke his oath. |
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Everything will make sense. ![]() Last edited by C. W. Saturn; 09-29-2008 at 03:59 PM. |
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#114 | |
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http://forums.superherohype.com/show...9#post15578279 Quote: Miller explained that in Amazing Heroes #102. He seems different in Batman: Year One because he was very young and inexperienced. But as silentflute points out, it's certainly the same person. "The 55-year-old Batman of Dark Knight is very different from the 25-year-old Batman of 'Batman: Year One.'" Miller explains. "He's very young, very enthusiastic. He may be Batman at his most joyful. He's a young man. He's also a Batman who makes a lot of mistakes. He's a young man who charges out thinking he can change the world on his own. He learns that he can't. He finds out that the abilities of one man are limited, even an extraordinary man like him. No matter how skilled you are, if the numbers are against you, you need a psychological advantage, which is what the bat costume gives him. Even as he learns the bat-symbolism to scare people, he finds himself very quickly outnumbered." In Wizard #162, Jim Lee and Dan DiDio explained about Batman in All-Star Batman & Robin: "It's Batman in his prime!" Lee says excitedly. "Batman is more of an S.O.B. than in Batman: Year One. I think he's tougher; more of a force of nature. Don't stand in his way because nothing is going to stop him." "Batman has also never experienced the lose of a partner (as Batman in Dark Knight Returns had)," DiDio adds. "He's in the process of training someone to stand by his side while he perfects his craft." Miller himself explained about Batman in All-Star Batman & Robin to Newarama: "He is a dick. He dresses up like a bat, and throws people through windows nightly. His only human contact is with a cranky butler. Now he’s got a twelve year old boy on his hands, and he’s trying to play daddy, and it ain’t going to work. Of course he’s a dick. He explains it to Alfred in the story, saying, “I’m a young man, but I won’t always be young, and the mission has to continue.” Robin is his apprentice. He's training his replacement. That's the life he intends for Robin. Of course Alfred's reaction is, "I'm dyspeptic!" and is horrified that Bruce would do such a thing, and even, if he did something like that, admit it out loud. Alfred already has to deal with this nutcase as a boss, and now he has to worry about a kid as well. Batman had been watching Dick Grayson because he was the most talented kid he'd seen yet. I felt that somebody finally had to explain why he would bring a kid into his world. Bruce was going to wait, as he puts it, “Until the kid was old enough to shave.” He was planning on taking him under his wing in maybe another six years, but instead, he has to do it when the kid is still too young for the job. It was the murder of Dick Grayson's parents that forced his hand. There's always banter back and forth, where Robin thinks that a lot of the stuff Batman does is old fashioned and weird. I love the "Boy Wonder" line, before he was turned into the Teen Wonder, and almost a "Grim Robin." But I just love the idea of a young Robin. That's why I created Carrie Kelley in Dark Knight - I just loved the contrast between this stocky, tough, dark adult, and a colorful little pixie running around. Also – if you're older than 12, are you going to come up with that costume? Do you think Bruce would? Robin creates "Robin," essentially. Bruce hadn't thought this thing through enough, given that he was somewhat "forced" to take Robin in before he – both Bruce, and Dick – were ready. Handling a kid? That's kind of outside his purview – somewhere outside of what he trained himself for. So he's struggling with the whole thing." In Comics Interview #31, Miller explained about Batman in Batman: Dark Knight Returns: "During the ten years that he isn't Batman that precede this series (after Jason Todd's death), he's a dead man," explains Miller. "Bruce Wayne goes through the motions but there's no one home. In the beginning of the series in fact, Bruce refers to Batman as "him." During the ten years that he hasn't been Batman he's gotten into racing cars. But he was born to be Batman, and whatever Bruce Wayne might have been is completely irrelevant. Bruce Wayne is Batman's host body. Bruce Wayne died when his parents go blown away. He really loves fighting crime. He's fighting what is in his mind a holy war. In my series I put forth the idea that he was always going to be Batman, that his parents murder was as inevitable as him putting the costume on. In fact, I have an incident earlier in his life that foreshadows what's going to happen to him (when he falls down into the cave as a child and meets the bats). Fate. Batman's methods can't be nice. Much of what he does to criminals is staged like a horror movie. He's the hero who acts like a villain - the epitome of the Dionysian hero, just as Superman - the Appollonian hero. In Christian terms, Batman commits evil to fight evil. And the whole problem with Batman is that he makes no compromises along the way. When he comes out of retirement he acts exactly as he did before. Except he's a bit less patient now because he's only got a certain amount of time left. The central conflict is the world versus Batman. I stress that Superman and Batman are enemies, and that Superman and Batman have been enemies for decades. They've never liked each other. Batman has tremendous contempt for Superman because he's such a "good boy," because he takes orders, from the President, among other people. Superman is something of a federal agent. And Superman, frankly, is scared of Batman. Because Batman represents to a certain extent, his own dark side. Which Superman doesn't want to look at. They imply completely different points of view. Superman implies a benevolent world - Batman implies a malevolent world. I cannot see two personalities like that getting along, acting friendly. Originally, my feeling was much like many other people's - I had always thought that Robin was a real pain-in-the-ass, but I now realize what a brilliant creation it was, because it really does give a human context to Batman's character. If Batman is done properly, he's such a powerhouse that he needs a restraining figure - and just a human being to be with him, especially a brightly-colored child, as perverse an idea as it is that a grown man would drag a child into the bullets!" Miller explained to Comic Book Resources about Batman in DK2: "In the first Dark Knight, Bruce was a very self destructive, tortured man," explains Miller. "He was endlessly angry. When this story begins, three years have passed and he looks younger than he did in the first Dark Knight. He is strangely happy and at peace. He is a much more powerful figure and he has been tested. Every hero has to be tested, that's how they're defined. Batman's trained all his troops underground and is finally reemerging to bring back the glory boys to save the day." http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=192 proof Batman laughing in Dark Knight Returns, Batman year one and All Star Batman and Robin,Joker's poisoning of the water supply, Jim Gordon's affair with Sarah Essen, whom he is clearly still in love with, while still being married to Barbara, Jim beating up detective Flass, the inclusion of the Joker's henchwoman, Bruno from Dark Knight Returns links the continuity of All-Star Batman to DKR, as well. |
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#115 | |
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And I'll repeat for the 3rd time.....Frank's ,or any writters statements, wants and desires for his story, is not proof or even evidence of a connection between an older story and one being told in the here and now. Inclusion of events and characters are likewise not evidence or proof of a connection. Simply put there are a lot of character portrayal inconsistencies.And you pointed one out. All Star Batman is by far a much bigger Dick then he is only a year or 2 before [Year One] and he's a much bigger Dick then his future incarnation in The dark Knight returns. The all Star Batman is by far more extreme then ether. Now maybe Frank intended for both TDKR Batman and Y1 Batman to be bigger ***** and more extreme but thats not what ended up being published. Maybe DC edited his work or told him to tone it down. But simply put. All Star Batman's portrayal is far more Darker,Extreme and a Bigger Dick then TDKR and Y1's portrayal of the character. So All Star does not fit as easily as you make it sound. And there are plenty of other inconsistencies I could point out. And again no matter what the writters says or wants, simular events or characters, is not proof of a connection between the universes.
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It just doesn't make sense.
I mean, the point of DKR was that he came back. More tormented, more extremer. So Year One and DKR makes somehow sense. But YEO -> ASB -> DKR?? Seriously? I mean if you want to see it that way, fine, but you have to close both eyes for that. The tagline for DKR could the be "Batman returns! Nicer than ever! Age has cooled him down." If Miller really wanted ASB to be part of his "Miller-verse" than he should've really written the characters much differently. Now there is no problem with Gordon, Dick Grayson and the Joker but Batman? And Alfred? THe guy from Year One and DKR is the one who thinks of Batman as his "little demon who has grown into manhood" or something like that? Doesn't work. I also got the vibe from DKR that Batman and Superman were indeed - like pre-crisis, on what DKR was based - BIG friends, it's just that their friendship broke up due to the political climate or something. I mean, would Superman really leave a message on Bruce Wayne's answering machine, knowing the backstory from ASB? On the answering machine of someone who doesn't like him and he doesn't like? Last edited by C. W. Saturn; 09-29-2008 at 07:53 PM. |
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#117 | |||
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In Wizard #162 ('05), Jim Lee and Dan DiDio explained about Batman in All-Star Batman & Robin: "It's Batman in his prime!" Lee says excitedly. "Batman is more of an S.O.B. than in Batman: Year One. I think he's tougher; more of a force of nature. Don't stand in his way because nothing is going to stop him." "Batman has also never experienced the lose of a partner (as Batman in Dark Knight Returns had)," DiDio adds. "He's in the process of training someone to stand by his side while he perfects his craft." Quote:
I stress that Superman and Batman are enemies, and that Superman and Batman have been enemies for decades. They've never liked each other. Batman has tremendous contempt for Superman because he's such a "good boy," because he takes orders, from the President, among other people. Superman is something of a federal agent. And Superman, frankly, is scared of Batman. Because Batman represents to a certain extent, his own dark side. Which Superman doesn't want to look at. They imply completely different points of view. Superman implies a benevolent world - Batman implies a malevolent world. I cannot see two personalities like that getting along, acting friendly."
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There is no consistency in this series. He jumps from an optimistic "Robin Hood"-type (Year One) into a berzerking madman (ASB) into a hard-as-nails-vigilante (DKR). |
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#119 | |
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The Dark Knight batman seemed unwilling to kill. He down rights mentions that he hasnt crossed the line yet up till that point.He used rubber bullets on the mutant gang members and stoped short of killing the Joker. But in All Star he seems perfectly confertable with killing [or possible killing] a group of corrupt police officers by landing the Batmobile on top of their car. Even if they didnt die they could have.And Batman was alright with that. TDKR's Batman was not that willing to kill.
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especially at the end of issue #9. It looks like Miller was slowly heading this way the whole time, it would follow the established path of the myth for Robin to humanize Batman, and take him from solitarily obsessed vigilante to a father figure. Robin’s whole existence has always been to contrast and temper Batman’s darkness. It makes sense for Robin to humanize Batman, pull him back from the brink, and vice versa. ![]() ![]() ![]() Quote:
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![]() And it's pretty clear to me that he didn't kill those corrupt police officers. They are running from their cars before he crashes into them. I don't believe he was trying to kill them. I believe his intent was to demobilize them, strike terror into their hearts, and injure, make them suffer, sure, but not kill. ![]()
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![]() And there's that "we have to be criminals" line that we see him say to Green Lantern in All-Star Batman & Robin #9. ![]() And Green Lantern himself thinks about Batman saying that to him in DK2. ![]() ![]() And in Dark Knight Returns Superman again thinks to himself about Batman laughing. ![]() And we see Superman worrying about Batman making them look bad in the eyes of the public in All-Star Batman & Robin. And that they'd use Batman as an excuse. ![]()
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#124 | |
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Frank Miller sure draws Superman a lot for a guy that "hates Superman."
Action Comics #400 back cover art by Frank Miller of Superman in silhouette with the American flag: ![]() More Superman art by Frank Miller of Superman flying with a kid in space: ![]() What Frank Miller says about Superman in Comics Interview #31 makes it clear that Frank Miller does not hate Superman. "Superman is such a great character. Superman was created during the Depression in response to a feeling of powerlessness, as a statement by the boys who made him up, that we do have power! Superman was the common man, he fought battles for the rights of people. Many of his stories are anti-war statements. They make the very strong point that in war, men are murdered by their own government! Superman would drag generals to the front line of battlefields so that they'd be in danger and realize that their men were. Superman fought corrupt employers, robber barons, he actually represented something -- the common man. What I discovered is that when you're working on a character like Superman -- that legend is really what's in control. The essential things that makes Superman had to be in John Byrne's version and in mine. Originally I intended to avoid the whole issue of Superman in the story (Batman: The Dark Knight Returns) because I thought his presence would dwarf Batman. I had originally planned on just simply coming up with some excuse that got him off the planet at the time the adventure takes place. However, as I thought about it I found ways to use Superman's history to make it conceivable that Superman could exist and yet the world could still be a lousy place to live in. As a matter of fact Superman is now a major force to the series - he permeates it." I love how Frank Miller has Clark give the classic Superman wink in Batman: The Dark Knight Returns. That's right out of both the Fleischer cartoons and The Adventures of Superman TV show starring George Reeves, complete with the classic glasses with the round frames. ![]() And I especially love the classic red and black Fleischer-esque Superman emblem that Miller gives Superman in DK2. ![]()
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Remember I said he was confertable with the idea of killing those cops. And your scans just proved that. There's no way one of those cops could have survived that hit if they didnt get out in time. And there's no was that Batman could have 100% known that they would all get out safely. It was a very real possibility that one of them "COULD" have gotten left in that car and if so he would have been killed. And Batman would be the killer. Quote:
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Boy what a shock ![]() None of this is proof that both stories are told in the same universe.
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