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Old 09-28-2008, 10:17 AM   #101
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

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Originally Posted by Oddzball View Post
There is the Superman Concept as depicted by Byrne, Stern, Jones, Bridwell, Bates, Hamilton, Binder and a host of other writers. Then there is Frankie all on his ownsome over there screaming "It's a lie. I and I alone, only me know the truth!"
Not at all. First of all, the Superman Concept as depicted by John Byrne and Roger Stern is very different from the Silver Age/Bronze Age Mort Weisinger Superman Concept as depicted by Otto Binder, E. Nelson Bridwell and Cary Bates.

Secondly, Frank isn't all on his own screaming "It's a lie. I and I alone, only me know the truth!" Frank Miller has stayed true to the Superman Concepts as depicted by John Byrne and Superman's creator's Siegel & Shuster.

As seen in The Dark Knight Returns, Miller's Clark Kent displays confidence like John Byrne's version.

And the Golden Age Siegel & Shuster Clark Kent was quite confident. The portrayal of Clark in both the Fleischer cartoons and The Adventures of Superman TV show starring George Reeves reflect that.


Unlike the Silver Age/Bronze Age nerves Mr. Sensitive Clark Kent which went beyond "mild mannered" status and straight into "wimp" mode.


As seen in The Dark Knight Returns, Miller's Superman was obedient to President Ronald Reagan and so was John Byrne's Superman as seen in Legends.


Miller's Superman is a deputized public servant. Byrne's Superman was appointed special deputy by the mayor of Metropolis in Man of Steel #4.

Miller's Superman is not friends with Batman and neither was Byrne's Superman as seen in Man of Steel #3.


As seem in The Dark Knight Returns, Miller's Superman is incredibly powerful but not invulnerable. A nuclear blast almost kills him. Byrne's Superman is also not invulnerable. Neither was Siegel & Shuster's. Weisinger's Superman is nearly invulnerable.

Miller's Superman is not super-intelligent, and neither is Byrne's, nor was Siegel & Shuster's Golden Age Superman. Weisinger's Silver Age Superman is super-intelligent.

Miller's Superman is an all American farm boy at heart, and so was Byrne's. Someone whose home is Earth and whose identity is solidly formed by his adoptive parents' values, without displaying any desire to return to Krypton. Siegel & Shuster's Superman displayed no desire to return to Krypton. Unlike Wesinger's Superman unhappy, feeling out of place, lonely, mopping and pining for Krypton.

Miller's Superman is romantically involved with Wonder Woman, and so was Byrne's.


In All-Star Batman & Robin Superman doesn't fly. He runs faster than a locomotive, which is a tribute to the original Siegel & Shuster Superman.

And as seen in DK2, Miller's Luthor is also true to Luthor as depicted by Byrne. A seriously creepy, cruel and manipulative mastermind operating secretly behind a mask of respectability -- secretly manipulating others to his ends. One of the richest men in the world. And easily one of the most powerful.

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Old 09-28-2008, 01:08 PM   #102
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

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Frank Miller has made is pretty clear within the story that it is connected, taking place between his Year One and his Dark Knight Returns. The reference to the Joker's poisoning of the water supply ties in All-Star Batman & Robin to the Year One continuity, as does Jim Gordon's affair with Sarah Essen, whom he is clearly still in love with, while still being married to Barbara, and references to Jim's past in Chicago (where he was moving from during in the beginning of Year One). And Jim even mentioned that he reads to his son, James Jr. (born in Year One) every night and hopes that he will become an Detective one day (Jim claims that he is very observant), and the inclusion of the Joker's henchwoman from Dark Knight Returns links the continuity of All-Star Batman to DKR, as well.
And I'll say it again.....Franks statements [or any writters],and anything that can be implied by his story telling in "All Star Batman" is "NOT" proof of a connection between both universes.

You can point at as many similarities as you like but it is in "NO WAY" proof of a connection.

And the introduction of characters from an older story into a new one is also in "NO WAY" proof of a connection between the universe.There's no way of telling that those characters arent just alternate universe counterparts of the characters in TDKR.

Look at the current JSA arc and the inclusion of "A" Kingdom come Superman for an example of this.

I can sit here and point out quite a few character portrayal and plot inconsistencies that leave any of Millers statement in question.

First and foremost would be the inclusion of young Barbra Gordan into Franks the All Star Universe.

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Old 09-28-2008, 03:23 PM   #103
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

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Miller's Superman is romantically involved with Wonder Woman, and so was Byrne's.

If I remember right Byrne's Superman only shared 1 kiss with Wonderwoman.

I wouldnt call that "romantically involved".

But I could be wrong about it being 1 kiss.

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Old 09-28-2008, 07:53 PM   #104
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

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If I remember right Byrne's Superman only shared 1 kiss with Wonderwoman.

I wouldnt call that "romantically involved".

But I could be wrong about it being 1 kiss.
That was not just a friendly little peck. They had romantic feels for each other. In Superman #5 Superman has a romantic dream about Wonder Woman.



In Superman #7 Clark tries to get in touch with Wonder Woman by calling the Boston Globe. He thinks to himself, "I feel like a schoolboy calling the prom queen for a date! Am I acting crazy or what? I can't seem to get her out of my thoughts."

In Wonder Woman #8 Julia Kapatelis writes in her journal, "Most interesting is the strange silence that would come over Diana whenever I mentioned Superman. She would not talk about him -- as if some unspoken secret existed between them."

In Wonder Woman #16 Diana walks into Vanessa's room, Julia Kapatelis's daughter, sees the new Superman poster Julia had just gotten and says, "Vanessa, I've seen how you feel about Barry--! Perhaps you are the only one I can speak to about this...In my dreams he is so like a God."

Vanessa says, "You're kidding!?! You mean you've got the hots for Superman?!?"

Diana says, "I am merely saying I cannot explain the feeling that comes over me when I think of him..."

Vanessa says, "Diana, that's great! It means you're in love!! I mean, Superman is perfect for you! So when are you going to tell him--? I mean if Superman feels the same way?"

So Wonder Woman's publicist Myndi Mayer calls Clark Kent at the Daily Planet and Kent says he's geting his friend Superman on the phone and he and Diana arrange a date for the weekend.

In Action Comics #600 they meet and kiss and hold hands and fly together. I'd say they were romantically involved.


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Old 09-28-2008, 08:05 PM   #105
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

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That was not just a friendly little peck. They had romantic feels for each other. In Superman #5 Superman has a romantic dream about Wonder Woman.

He thinks to himself "Wow! That was intense! I've had dreams before, but never one that tapped into so deeply into my innermost feelings! And I can't deny it. Wonder Woman has been on my mind a lot. Amazing! Over the years I've more or less contented myself with the fact that there's no real place for romance in Superman's life. Apparently my subconscious mind this otherwise. And it could be right. Wonder Woman would seem a perfect match for Superman."

In Superman #7 Clark tries to get in touch with Wonder Woman by calling the Boston Globe. He thinks to himself, "I feel like a schoolboy calling the prom queen for a date! Am I acting crazy or what? I can't seem to get her out of my thoughts."

In Wonder Woman #8 Julia Kapatelis writes in her journal, "Most interesting is the strange silence that would come over Diana whenever I mentioned Superman. She would not talk about him -- as if some unspoken secret existed between them."

In Wonder Woman #16 Diana walks into Vanessa's room, Julia Kapatelis's daughter, sees the new Superman poster Julia had just gotten and says, "Vanessa, I've seen how you feel about Barry--! Perhaps you are the only one I can speak to about this...In my dreams he is so like a God."

Vanessa says, "You're kidding!?! You mean you've got the hots for Superman?!?"

Diana says, "I am merely saying I cannot explain the feeling that comes over me when I think of him..."

Vanessa says, "Diana, that's great! It means you're in love!! I mean, Superman is perfect for you! So when are you going to tell him--? I mean if Superman feels the same way?"

So Wonder Woman's publicist Myndi Mayer calls Clark Kent at the Daily Planet and Kent says he's geting his friend Superman on the phone and he and Diana arrange a date for the weekend.

In Action Comics #600 they meet and kiss and hold hands and fly together. I'd say they were romantically involved.

All you did was prove what I said.

They shared 1 kiss.....I can now add they held hands.

Simple fact every thing you provided only proves that if given a chance, they may have had a relationship.

They obviously had feelings for each other.

But nether really did anything about it.

Sorry but none of the facts point to them being "romantically involved".

It only proves that they "Could" have been romantically involved if they allowed them selfs not that they were.

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Old 09-28-2008, 08:15 PM   #106
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

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And I'll say it again.....Franks statements [or any writters],and anything that can be implied by his story telling in "All Star Batman" is "NOT" proof of a connection between both universes.

You can point at as many similarities as you like but it is in "NO WAY" proof of a connection.

And the introduction of characters from an older story into a new one is also in "NO WAY" proof of a connection between the universe.There's no way of telling that those characters arent just alternate universe counterparts of the characters in TDKR.
You might need it stated in Countdown before you believe that Miller's All-Star Batman & Robin is connected to Miller's Year One and Miller's The Dark Knight Returns and DK2, but it's clear that they are. Frank Miller himself said, "DC has allowed me to carve out my own "Dark Knight Universe", letting me play with their characters with abandon." http://archive.comicdom.gr/interviews.php?id=17&lang=en
“Anything I come up with about any of these characters is DKU,” Miller said. In his Dark Knight work, Miller has given readers a glimpse into the twilight years of Batman’s career. In Batman: Year One, he’s shared the beginning of the Batman saga. So where does All-Star Batman fall in his Batman time-table? “Year Three. Bats is feeling his oats—very young, maybe acting a little crazy, but he knows exactly what he's doing. He's just a bit sloppier about doing it than he's going to eventually get.” - Frank Miller.
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthrea...threadid=27218
The All-Star Batman & Robin, the Boy Wonder Volume 1 forward in the front from DC Editor Bob Schreck states ..."that All Star B&R "IS" the prequel to Frank's Dark Knight." When the DC Editor says it's so and the writer says it's so..... it's so !

Quote:
Look at the current JSA arc and the inclusion of "A" Kingdom come Superman for an example of this.
Isn't that the Kingdom Come Superman from Earth-22: Home of the Kingdom Come characters by Mark Waid and Alex Ross. Revealed in 52 52.

Quote:
I can sit here and point out quite a few character portrayal and plot inconsistencies that leave any of Millers statement in question.

First and foremost would be the inclusion of young Barbra Gordan into Franks the All Star Universe.
Sure Barbara Gordon didn't make an appearance in Year One. I assume she was living with a relative in Chicago in Year One. When asked how young Barbra Gordon fit in All Star, since she wasn't mentioned in Year One? Frank Miller said, "Didn't get around to it. That was a pretty tight series." http://www.moebiusgraphics.com/phpBB...php?f=2&t=1534

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Old 09-28-2008, 08:20 PM   #107
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

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All you did was prove what I said.

They shared 1 kiss.....I can now add they held hands.

Simple fact every thing you provided only proves that if given a chance, they may have had a relationship.

They obviously had feelings for each other.

But nether really did anything about it.

Sorry but none of the facts point to them being "romantically involved".

It only proves that they "Could" have been romantically involved if they allowed them selfs not that they were.
They had romantic feels for each other, they were involved during the date - they were romantically involved. If you don't want to call it that, fine...but arguing about it is silly.

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Old 09-28-2008, 09:38 PM   #108
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

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You might need it officially stated in Countdown before you believe that Miller's All-Star Batman & Robin is connected to Miller's Year One and Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, but it's clear to me that they are. If you don't see it that way than that's fine. To each his own.
I see many simularities but there are also a few inconsistancies.

Thou they are minor.

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Isn't that the Kingdom Come Superman from Earth-22: Home of the Kingdom Come characters by Mark Waid and Alex Ross. Revealed in 52 52.
Yes and no.

It is Earth 22 that is home to "A Kingdom Come" like universe.

It is not the same universe or earth that the "Kingdom Come" mini and its sequil stories was about.

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Sure Barbara Gordon didn't make an appearance in Year One. I assume that's because she is his adopted daughter and Jim Gordon had not adopted her yet in Year One.
We can assume that but its a pretty big assumption.

It would fit with one of Barbra's many older origins but so far theres no indication that she is adopted.

And even if she is it wouldnt have been that long ago and it would be too soon [imo] for her to be so freely calling James and Barbra, Mom and Dad.

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They had romantic feels for each other, they were involved during the date - they were romantically involved. If you don't want to call it that, fine...but arguing about it is silly.
And again as far as I know we were never shown the events of the date.

For all we know that sat on a sofa at opposites sides and watched TV.

I'm not trying to argue anything other that we dont know enough to say they were romantically involved and implying such is a mistake.

Now if they did show or refer to the date in some other issue ether I dont remember or missed it but for years I've seen a few people make this or a simlar statement about JB's Superman and Wonderwoman being romantically involved but no one has been able to provide definitive proof of it actually happening.

Now if someone has proof fine....I'm open to seeing it and to be honest I would rather like the idea.

I loved how it worked out for them in Kingdom come.

But as I said there's no evidence to surport saying that JB's Superman was romantically involved with Wonderwoman.

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Old 09-29-2008, 04:45 AM   #109
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

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Yes and no.

It is Earth 22 that is home to "A Kingdom Come" like universe.

It is not the same universe or earth that the "Kingdom Come" mini and its sequil stories was about.
Alex Ross said in Wizard, "I said he (Geoff Johns) should take the Kingdom Come Superman from that story. He's taken from the middle of the story before the end of Kingdom Come when he's still wearing the costume and everything. The thing I missed about the Justice Society that I loved when I was a kid was that they had an older Superman in the group. That was something that was really cool."

Quote:
We can assume that but its a pretty big assumption.

It would fit with one of Barbra's many older origins but so far theres no indication that she is adopted.

And even if she is it wouldnt have been that long ago and it would be too soon [imo] for her to be so freely calling James and Barbra, Mom and Dad.
Barbara was likely living with relatives in Chicago during Year One. Remember Jim said "Gotham is no place to raise a family."

Its a year later in All-Star.



Quote:
And again as far as I know we were never shown the events of the date.

For all we know that sat on a sofa at opposites sides and watched TV.

I'm not trying to argue anything other that we dont know enough to say they were romantically involved and implying such is a mistake.

Now if they did show or refer to the date in some other issue ether I dont remember or missed it but for years I've seen a few people make this or a simlar statement about JB's Superman and Wonderwoman being romantically involved but no one has been able to provide definitive proof of it actually happening.

Now if someone has proof fine....I'm open to seeing it and to be honest I would rather like the idea.

I loved how it worked out for them in Kingdom come.

But as I said there's no evidence to surport saying that JB's Superman was romantically involved with Wonderwoman.
We seem to have different views of what "romantically involved" means. By romantically involved I'm not intending to imply John Byrne's Superman was sexually involved with Wonder Woman or in a relationship with her. I call kissing and holding hands on a date, romantically involved. They hooked up. Sure, it was only one date, but it happened.

I loved how it worked out for them in Kingdom Come, too. And I love how Frank Miller has them romantically linked in All-Star Batman & Robin and DK2 as well.

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Old 09-29-2008, 01:01 PM   #110
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

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Alex Ross said in Wizard, "I said he (Geoff Johns) should take the Kingdom Come Superman from that story. He's taken from the middle of the story before the end of Kingdom Come when he's still wearing the costume and everything. The thing I missed about the Justice Society that I loved when I was a kid was that they had an older Superman in the group. That was something that was really cool."
Which means that its not the same "Kingdom Come Superman" that appeared in the mini.

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A year has past. All-Star Batman & Robin isn't Miller's year two. We know it isn't taking place right after Batman: Year One because at the end of Batman: Year One (December 3) Joker threatens to poison the water supply. In his appearance in All-Star Batman & Robin, it's mentioned he tried to poison the water supply a year ago. So that means All-Star Batman & Robin is year three. We can assume Jim Gordon adopted Barbara Gordon during year two.
And I'll say again......."Thats not that long ago and it would be too soon [imo] for her to be so freely calling James and Barbra, Mom and Dad".

And so far it doesnt seem like she's adopted.granted it is something that could come out later but it wouldnt be very inconsistent.

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We seem to have different views of what "romantically involved" means. By romantically involved I'm not intending to imply John Byrne's Superman was sexually involved with Wonder Woman or in a relationship with her. I call kissing and holding hands on a date, romantically involved. They hooked up. Sure, it was only one date, but it happened.
To me "romantically involved" implies something other then 1 hook up and a date.

Anytime you add the worded "involved" into a statement it implies a greater degree of activity in the topic being spoken of.

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I loved how it worked out for them in Kingdom Come, too. And I love how Frank Miller has them romantically linked in All-Star Batman & Robin and DK2 as well.
Same here.

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Old 09-29-2008, 01:22 PM   #111
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All Star Batman and Year One in one strict and tight continuity doesn't make much sense. The tone is too different.

And even with DKR it doesn't really work, because in All Star Batman is MUCH worse than in DKR and the point in DKR is his raised violence because he broke his oath.

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Old 09-29-2008, 01:40 PM   #112
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

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All Star Batman and Year One in one strict and tight continuity doesn't make much sense. The tone is too different.

And even with DKR it doesn't really work, because in All Star Batman is MUCH worse than in DKR and the point in DKR is his raised violence because he broke his oath.
Thats what I was trying to say when I said that there were cultural and character inconsistencies.

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Old 09-29-2008, 03:55 PM   #113
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Thats what I was trying to say when I said that there were cultural and character inconsistencies.
Wait for "TheMan-Bat"

Everything will make sense.


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Old 09-29-2008, 07:02 PM   #114
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

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And I'll say it again.....Franks statements [or any writters],and anything that can be implied by his story telling in "All Star Batman" is "NOT" proof of a connection between both universes.

You can point at as many similarities as you like but it is in "NO WAY" proof of a connection.

And the introduction of characters from an older story into a new one is also in "NO WAY" proof of a connection between the universe.There's no way of telling that those characters arent just alternate universe counterparts of the characters in TDKR.

Look at the current JSA arc and the inclusion of "A" Kingdom come Superman for an example of this.

I can sit here and point out quite a few character portrayal and plot inconsistencies that leave any of Millers statement in question.

First and foremost would be the inclusion of young Barbra Gordan into Franks the All Star Universe.
actually this batman is basiaclly the same batman:
http://forums.superherohype.com/show...9#post15578279
Quote:
Miller explained that in Amazing Heroes #102. He seems different in Batman: Year One because he was very young and inexperienced. But as silentflute points out, it's certainly the same person.

"The 55-year-old Batman of Dark Knight is very different from the 25-year-old Batman of 'Batman: Year One.'" Miller explains. "He's very young, very enthusiastic. He may be Batman at his most joyful. He's a young man. He's also a Batman who makes a lot of mistakes. He's a young man who charges out thinking he can change the world on his own. He learns that he can't. He finds out that the abilities of one man are limited, even an extraordinary man like him. No matter how skilled you are, if the numbers are against you, you need a psychological advantage, which is what the bat costume gives him. Even as he learns the bat-symbolism to scare people, he finds himself very quickly outnumbered."

In Wizard #162, Jim Lee and Dan DiDio explained about Batman in All-Star Batman & Robin: "It's Batman in his prime!" Lee says excitedly. "Batman is more of an S.O.B. than in Batman: Year One. I think he's tougher; more of a force of nature. Don't stand in his way because nothing is going to stop him." "Batman has also never experienced the lose of a partner (as Batman in Dark Knight Returns had)," DiDio adds. "He's in the process of training someone to stand by his side while he perfects his craft."

Miller himself explained about Batman in All-Star Batman & Robin to Newarama: "He is a dick. He dresses up like a bat, and throws people through windows nightly. His only human contact is with a cranky butler. Now hes got a twelve year old boy on his hands, and hes trying to play daddy, and it aint going to work. Of course hes a dick. He explains it to Alfred in the story, saying, Im a young man, but I wont always be young, and the mission has to continue. Robin is his apprentice. He's training his replacement. That's the life he intends for Robin. Of course Alfred's reaction is, "I'm dyspeptic!" and is horrified that Bruce would do such a thing, and even, if he did something like that, admit it out loud. Alfred already has to deal with this nutcase as a boss, and now he has to worry about a kid as well. Batman had been watching Dick Grayson because he was the most talented kid he'd seen yet. I felt that somebody finally had to explain why he would bring a kid into his world. Bruce was going to wait, as he puts it, Until the kid was old enough to shave. He was planning on taking him under his wing in maybe another six years, but instead, he has to do it when the kid is still too young for the job. It was the murder of Dick Grayson's parents that forced his hand. There's always banter back and forth, where Robin thinks that a lot of the stuff Batman does is old fashioned and weird.

I love the "Boy Wonder" line, before he was turned into the Teen Wonder, and almost a "Grim Robin." But I just love the idea of a young Robin. That's why I created Carrie Kelley in Dark Knight - I just loved the contrast between this stocky, tough, dark adult, and a colorful little pixie running around.

Also if you're older than 12, are you going to come up with that costume? Do you think Bruce would? Robin creates "Robin," essentially. Bruce hadn't thought this thing through enough, given that he was somewhat "forced" to take Robin in before he both Bruce, and Dick were ready. Handling a kid? That's kind of outside his purview somewhere outside of what he trained himself for. So he's struggling with the whole thing."


In Comics Interview #31, Miller explained about Batman in Batman: Dark Knight Returns:

"During the ten years that he isn't Batman that precede this series (after Jason Todd's death), he's a dead man," explains Miller. "Bruce Wayne goes through the motions but there's no one home. In the beginning of the series in fact, Bruce refers to Batman as "him." During the ten years that he hasn't been Batman he's gotten into racing cars. But he was born to be Batman, and whatever Bruce Wayne might have been is completely irrelevant. Bruce Wayne is Batman's host body. Bruce Wayne died when his parents go blown away. He really loves fighting crime. He's fighting what is in his mind a holy war. In my series I put forth the idea that he was always going to be Batman, that his parents murder was as inevitable as him putting the costume on. In fact, I have an incident earlier in his life that foreshadows what's going to happen to him (when he falls down into the cave as a child and meets the bats). Fate.

Batman's methods can't be nice. Much of what he does to criminals is staged like a horror movie. He's the hero who acts like a villain - the epitome of the Dionysian hero, just as Superman - the Appollonian hero. In Christian terms, Batman commits evil to fight evil. And the whole problem with Batman is that he makes no compromises along the way. When he comes out of retirement he acts exactly as he did before. Except he's a bit less patient now because he's only got a certain amount of time left. The central conflict is the world versus Batman.

I stress that Superman and Batman are enemies, and that Superman and Batman have been enemies for decades. They've never liked each other. Batman has tremendous contempt for Superman because he's such a "good boy," because he takes orders, from the President, among other people. Superman is something of a federal agent. And Superman, frankly, is scared of Batman. Because Batman represents to a certain extent, his own dark side. Which Superman doesn't want to look at. They imply completely different points of view. Superman implies a benevolent world - Batman implies a malevolent world. I cannot see two personalities like that getting along, acting friendly.

Originally, my feeling was much like many other people's - I had always thought that Robin was a real pain-in-the-ass, but I now realize what a brilliant creation it was, because it really does give a human context to Batman's character. If Batman is done properly, he's such a powerhouse that he needs a restraining figure - and just a human being to be with him, especially a brightly-colored child, as perverse an idea as it is that a grown man would drag a child into the bullets!"

Miller explained to Comic Book Resources about Batman in DK2:
"In the first Dark Knight, Bruce was a very self destructive, tortured man," explains Miller. "He was endlessly angry. When this story begins, three years have passed and he looks younger than he did in the first Dark Knight. He is strangely happy and at peace. He is a much more powerful figure and he has been tested. Every hero has to be tested, that's how they're defined. Batman's trained all his troops underground and is finally reemerging to bring back the glory boys to save the day."
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=192

proof Batman laughing in Dark Knight Returns, Batman year one and All Star Batman and Robin,Joker's poisoning of the water supply, Jim Gordon's affair with Sarah Essen, whom he is clearly still in love with, while still being married to Barbara, Jim beating up detective Flass, the inclusion of the Joker's henchwoman, Bruno from Dark Knight Returns links the continuity of All-Star Batman to DKR, as well.

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Old 09-29-2008, 07:22 PM   #115
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

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actually this batman is basiaclly the same batman:
http://forums.superherohype.com/show...9#post15578279
Quote:
Miller explained that in Amazing Heroes #102. He seems different in Batman: Year One because he was very young and inexperienced. But as silentflute points out, it's certainly the same person.

"The 55-year-old Batman of Dark Knight is very different from the 25-year-old Batman of 'Batman: Year One.'" Miller explains. "He's very young, very enthusiastic. He may be Batman at his most joyful. He's a young man. He's also a Batman who makes a lot of mistakes. He's a young man who charges out thinking he can change the world on his own. He learns that he can't. He finds out that the abilities of one man are limited, even an extraordinary man like him. No matter how skilled you are, if the numbers are against you, you need a psychological advantage, which is what the bat costume gives him. Even as he learns the bat-symbolism to scare people, he finds himself very quickly outnumbered."

In Wizard #162, Jim Lee and Dan DiDio explained about Batman in All-Star Batman & Robin: "It's Batman in his prime!" Lee says excitedly. "Batman is more of an S.O.B. than in Batman: Year One. I think he's tougher; more of a force of nature. Don't stand in his way because nothing is going to stop him." "Batman has also never experienced the lose of a partner (as Batman in Dark Knight Returns had)," DiDio adds. "He's in the process of training someone to stand by his side while he perfects his craft."

Miller himself explained about Batman in All-Star Batman & Robin to Newarama: "He is a dick. He dresses up like a bat, and throws people through windows nightly. His only human contact is with a cranky butler. Now hes got a twelve year old boy on his hands, and hes trying to play daddy, and it aint going to work. Of course hes a dick. He explains it to Alfred in the story, saying, Im a young man, but I wont always be young, and the mission has to continue. Robin is his apprentice. He's training his replacement. That's the life he intends for Robin. Of course Alfred's reaction is, "I'm dyspeptic!" and is horrified that Bruce would do such a thing, and even, if he did something like that, admit it out loud. Alfred already has to deal with this nutcase as a boss, and now he has to worry about a kid as well. Batman had been watching Dick Grayson because he was the most talented kid he'd seen yet. I felt that somebody finally had to explain why he would bring a kid into his world. Bruce was going to wait, as he puts it, Until the kid was old enough to shave. He was planning on taking him under his wing in maybe another six years, but instead, he has to do it when the kid is still too young for the job. It was the murder of Dick Grayson's parents that forced his hand. There's always banter back and forth, where Robin thinks that a lot of the stuff Batman does is old fashioned and weird.

I love the "Boy Wonder" line, before he was turned into the Teen Wonder, and almost a "Grim Robin." But I just love the idea of a young Robin. That's why I created Carrie Kelley in Dark Knight - I just loved the contrast between this stocky, tough, dark adult, and a colorful little pixie running around.

Also if you're older than 12, are you going to come up with that costume? Do you think Bruce would? Robin creates "Robin," essentially. Bruce hadn't thought this thing through enough, given that he was somewhat "forced" to take Robin in before he both Bruce, and Dick were ready. Handling a kid? That's kind of outside his purview somewhere outside of what he trained himself for. So he's struggling with the whole thing."


In Comics Interview #31, Miller explained about Batman in Batman: Dark Knight Returns:

"During the ten years that he isn't Batman that precede this series (after Jason Todd's death), he's a dead man," explains Miller. "Bruce Wayne goes through the motions but there's no one home. In the beginning of the series in fact, Bruce refers to Batman as "him." During the ten years that he hasn't been Batman he's gotten into racing cars. But he was born to be Batman, and whatever Bruce Wayne might have been is completely irrelevant. Bruce Wayne is Batman's host body. Bruce Wayne died when his parents go blown away. He really loves fighting crime. He's fighting what is in his mind a holy war. In my series I put forth the idea that he was always going to be Batman, that his parents murder was as inevitable as him putting the costume on. In fact, I have an incident earlier in his life that foreshadows what's going to happen to him (when he falls down into the cave as a child and meets the bats). Fate.

Batman's methods can't be nice. Much of what he does to criminals is staged like a horror movie. He's the hero who acts like a villain - the epitome of the Dionysian hero, just as Superman - the Appollonian hero. In Christian terms, Batman commits evil to fight evil. And the whole problem with Batman is that he makes no compromises along the way. When he comes out of retirement he acts exactly as he did before. Except he's a bit less patient now because he's only got a certain amount of time left. The central conflict is the world versus Batman.

I stress that Superman and Batman are enemies, and that Superman and Batman have been enemies for decades. They've never liked each other. Batman has tremendous contempt for Superman because he's such a "good boy," because he takes orders, from the President, among other people. Superman is something of a federal agent. And Superman, frankly, is scared of Batman. Because Batman represents to a certain extent, his own dark side. Which Superman doesn't want to look at. They imply completely different points of view. Superman implies a benevolent world - Batman implies a malevolent world. I cannot see two personalities like that getting along, acting friendly.

Originally, my feeling was much like many other people's - I had always thought that Robin was a real pain-in-the-ass, but I now realize what a brilliant creation it was, because it really does give a human context to Batman's character. If Batman is done properly, he's such a powerhouse that he needs a restraining figure - and just a human being to be with him, especially a brightly-colored child, as perverse an idea as it is that a grown man would drag a child into the bullets!"

Miller explained to Comic Book Resources about Batman in DK2:
"In the first Dark Knight, Bruce was a very self destructive, tortured man," explains Miller. "He was endlessly angry. When this story begins, three years have passed and he looks younger than he did in the first Dark Knight. He is strangely happy and at peace. He is a much more powerful figure and he has been tested. Every hero has to be tested, that's how they're defined. Batman's trained all his troops underground and is finally reemerging to bring back the glory boys to save the day."
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=192

proof Batman laughing in Dark Knight Returns, Batman year one and All Star Batman and Robin,Joker's poisoning of the water supply, Jim Gordon's affair with Sarah Essen, whom he is clearly still in love with, while still being married to Barbara, Jim beating up detective Flass, the inclusion of the Joker's henchwoman, Bruno from Dark Knight Returns links the continuity of All-Star Batman to DKR, as well.
Your first link did not work.

And I'll repeat for the 3rd time.....Frank's ,or any writters statements, wants and desires for his story, is not proof or even evidence of a connection between an older story and one being told in the here and now.

Inclusion of events and characters are likewise not evidence or proof of a connection.

Simply put there are a lot of character portrayal inconsistencies.And you pointed one out.

All Star Batman is by far a much bigger Dick then he is only a year or 2 before [Year One] and he's a much bigger Dick then his future incarnation in The dark Knight returns.

The all Star Batman is by far more extreme then ether.

Now maybe Frank intended for both TDKR Batman and Y1 Batman to be bigger ***** and more extreme but thats not what ended up being published.

Maybe DC edited his work or told him to tone it down.

But simply put. All Star Batman's portrayal is far more Darker,Extreme and a Bigger Dick then TDKR and Y1's portrayal of the character.

So All Star does not fit as easily as you make it sound.

And there are plenty of other inconsistencies I could point out.

And again no matter what the writters says or wants, simular events or characters, is not proof of a connection between the universes.

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Old 09-29-2008, 07:47 PM   #116
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It just doesn't make sense.

I mean, the point of DKR was that he came back. More tormented, more extremer. So Year One and DKR makes somehow sense.

But YEO -> ASB -> DKR??

Seriously?

I mean if you want to see it that way, fine, but you have to close both eyes for that.

The tagline for DKR could the be "Batman returns! Nicer than ever! Age has cooled him down."

If Miller really wanted ASB to be part of his "Miller-verse" than he should've really written the characters much differently. Now there is no problem with Gordon, Dick Grayson and the Joker but Batman? And Alfred? THe guy from Year One and DKR is the one who thinks of Batman as his "little demon who has grown into manhood" or something like that?

Doesn't work.

I also got the vibe from DKR that Batman and Superman were indeed - like pre-crisis, on what DKR was based - BIG friends, it's just that their friendship broke up due to the political climate or something. I mean, would Superman really leave a message on Bruce Wayne's answering machine, knowing the backstory from ASB? On the answering machine of someone who doesn't like him and he doesn't like?


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Old 09-29-2008, 07:59 PM   #117
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

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All Star Batman and Year One in one strict and tight continuity doesn't make much sense. The tone is too different.
The tone is different because Batman in All-Star Batman & Robin is very different from Batman in Batman: Year One. In Batman: Year One he was very young and inexperienced. Miller explains in Amazing Heroes #102 (1987). "He's very young, very enthusiastic. He may be Batman at his most joyful. He's a young man. He's also a Batman who makes a lot of mistakes. He's a young man who charges out thinking he can change the world on his own. He learns that he can't. He finds out that the abilities of one man are limited, even an extraordinary man like him. No matter how skilled you are, if the numbers are against you, you need a psychological advantage, which is what the bat costume gives him. Even as he learns the bat-symbolism to scare people, he finds himself very quickly outnumbered."

In Wizard #162 ('05), Jim Lee and Dan DiDio explained about Batman in All-Star Batman & Robin: "It's Batman in his prime!" Lee says excitedly. "Batman is more of an S.O.B. than in Batman: Year One. I think he's tougher; more of a force of nature. Don't stand in his way because nothing is going to stop him." "Batman has also never experienced the lose of a partner (as Batman in Dark Knight Returns had)," DiDio adds. "He's in the process of training someone to stand by his side while he perfects his craft."

Quote:
And even with DKR it doesn't really work, because in All Star Batman is MUCH worse than in DKR and the point in DKR is his raised violence because he broke his oath.
The point of The Dark Knight Returns is that "he was born to be Batman and during the ten years that precede the series he's a dead man because he broke his oath," says Miller in Comics Interview #31 (1986). "Bruce Wayne goes through the motions but there's no one home. In the beginning of the series in fact, Bruce refers to Batman as "him." During the ten years that he hasn't been Batman he's gotten into racing cars. But he was born to be Batman, and whatever Bruce Wayne might have been is completely irrelevant. Bruce Wayne is Batman's host body. Bruce Wayne died when his parents go blown away. He really loves fighting crime. He's fighting what is in his mind a holy war. In my series I put forth the idea that he was always going to be Batman, that his parents murder was as inevitable as him putting the costume on. In fact, I have an incident earlier in his life that foreshadows what's going to happen to him (when he falls down into the cave as a child and meets the bats). Fate. And the whole problem with Batman is that he makes no compromises along the way. When he comes out of retirement he acts exactly as he did before.

I stress that Superman and Batman are enemies, and that Superman and Batman have been enemies for decades. They've never liked each other. Batman has tremendous contempt for Superman because he's such a "good boy," because he takes orders, from the President, among other people. Superman is something of a federal agent. And Superman, frankly, is scared of Batman. Because Batman represents to a certain extent, his own dark side. Which Superman doesn't want to look at. They imply completely different points of view. Superman implies a benevolent world - Batman implies a malevolent world. I cannot see two personalities like that getting along, acting friendly."

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Old 09-29-2008, 08:10 PM   #118
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When he comes out of retirement he acts exactly as he did before.
Well, but that's exactly what he does not! In ASB for example he CURSES all the time, while in DKR he STILL plays a kind of father figure and tells that kid who was going to curse something "Watch your language, son".

There is no consistency in this series. He jumps from an optimistic "Robin Hood"-type (Year One) into a berzerking madman (ASB) into a hard-as-nails-vigilante (DKR).

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Old 09-29-2008, 08:43 PM   #119
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When he comes out of retirement he acts exactly as he did before.
I have to disagree.

The Dark Knight batman seemed unwilling to kill.

He down rights mentions that he hasnt crossed the line yet up till that point.He used rubber bullets on the mutant gang members and stoped short of killing the Joker.

But in All Star he seems perfectly confertable with killing [or possible killing] a group of corrupt police officers by landing the Batmobile on top of their car.

Even if they didnt die they could have.And Batman was alright with that.

TDKR's Batman was not that willing to kill.

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Old 09-30-2008, 03:39 AM   #120
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Well, but that's exactly what he does not! In ASB for example he CURSES all the time,
while in DKR he STILL plays a kind of father figure and tells that kid who was going to curse something "Watch your language, son".
Well, in All-Star Batman & Robin we see him realizing he had been wrong and starting to evolve into the father figure,
especially at the end of issue #9.
It looks like Miller was slowly heading this way the whole time,
it would follow the established path of the myth for Robin to humanize Batman,
and take him from solitarily obsessed vigilante to a father figure.
Robin’s whole existence has always been to contrast and temper Batman’s darkness.
It makes sense for Robin to humanize Batman, pull him back from the brink, and vice versa.




Quote:
There is no consistency in this series. He jumps from an optimistic "Robin Hood"-type (Year One) into a berzerking madman (ASB) into a hard-as-nails-vigilante (DKR).
In each Batman series by Miller we see Batman change. I believe it's the same person and each series are chapters into his life.

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Old 09-30-2008, 03:46 AM   #121
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I have to disagree.

The Dark Knight batman seemed unwilling to kill.

He down rights mentions that he hasnt crossed the line yet up till that point.He used rubber bullets on the mutant gang members and stoped short of killing the Joker.

But in All Star he seems perfectly confertable with killing [or possible killing] a group of corrupt police officers by landing the Batmobile on top of their car.

Even if they didnt die they could have.And Batman was alright with that.

TDKR's Batman was not that willing to kill.
He shows he's actually against killing in All-Star Batman & Robin.


And it's pretty clear to me that he didn't kill those corrupt police officers.
They are running from their cars before he crashes into them.
I don't believe he was trying to kill them.
I believe his intent was to demobilize them, strike terror into their hearts, and injure, make them suffer, sure, but not kill.

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Old 09-30-2008, 10:53 AM   #122
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He shows he's actually against killing in All-Star Batman & Robin.


And it's pretty clear to me that he didn't kill those corrupt police officers.
They are running from their cars before he crashes into them.
I don't believe he was trying to kill them.
I believe his intent was to demobilize them, strike terror into their hearts, and injure, make them suffer, sure, but not kill.
and what about Green Lantern. Robin almost killed him but Bats saved his life and he even said he didn't killed and may I remind that in Batman Year One Detective Flass claimed he heard Batman laughing and in Dark Knight Returns a witness also claimed she heard Batman laughing.

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Old 09-30-2008, 12:39 PM   #123
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and what about Green Lantern. Robin almost killed him but Bats saved his life and he even said he didn't killed and may I remind that in Batman Year One Detective Flass claimed he heard Batman laughing and in Dark Knight Returns a witness also claimed she heard Batman laughing.
Exactly. And also in Dark Knight Returns, Superman thinks to himself, "You were the one who laughed...That scary laugh of yours..."

And there's that "we have to be criminals" line that we see him say to Green Lantern in All-Star Batman & Robin #9.

And Green Lantern himself thinks about Batman saying that to him in DK2.

And in Dark Knight Returns Superman again thinks to himself about Batman laughing.

And we see Superman worrying about Batman making them look bad in the eyes of the public in All-Star Batman & Robin.
And that they'd use Batman as an excuse.

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Old 09-30-2008, 10:35 PM   #124
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

Frank Miller sure draws Superman a lot for a guy that "hates Superman."
Action Comics #400 back cover art by Frank Miller of Superman in silhouette with the American flag:

More Superman art by Frank Miller of Superman flying with a kid in space:


What Frank Miller says about Superman in Comics Interview #31 makes it clear that Frank Miller does not hate Superman.

"Superman is such a great character. Superman was created during the Depression in response to a feeling of powerlessness, as a statement by the boys who made him up, that we do have power! Superman was the common man, he fought battles for the rights of people. Many of his stories are anti-war statements. They make the very strong point that in war, men are murdered by their own government! Superman would drag generals to the front line of battlefields so that they'd be in danger and realize that their men were. Superman fought corrupt employers, robber barons, he actually represented something -- the common man. What I discovered is that when you're working on a character like Superman -- that legend is really what's in control. The essential things that makes Superman had to be in John Byrne's version and in mine.

Originally I intended to avoid the whole issue of Superman in the story (Batman: The Dark Knight Returns) because I thought his presence would dwarf Batman. I had originally planned on just simply coming up with some excuse that got him off the planet at the time the adventure takes place. However, as I thought about it I found ways to use Superman's history to make it conceivable that Superman could exist and yet the world could still be a lousy place to live in. As a matter of fact Superman is now a major force to the series - he permeates it."

I love how Frank Miller has Clark give the classic Superman wink in Batman: The Dark Knight Returns. That's right out of both the Fleischer cartoons and The Adventures of Superman TV show starring George Reeves, complete with the classic glasses with the round frames.

And I especially love the classic red and black Fleischer-esque Superman emblem that Miller gives Superman in DK2.

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Old 10-01-2008, 02:15 PM   #125
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Default Re: Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

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In each Batman series by Miller we see Batman change. I believe it's the same person and each series are chapters into his life.
Thats your right.

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Originally Posted by theMan-Bat View Post
He shows he's actually against killing in All-Star Batman & Robin.
Thats one way of seeing it.Or maybe he wasnt willing to let a Hero get killed.

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Originally Posted by theMan-Bat View Post
And it's pretty clear to me that he didn't kill those corrupt police officers.
They are running from their cars before he crashes into them.
I don't believe he was trying to kill them.
I believe his intent was to demobilize them, strike terror into their hearts, and injure, make them suffer, sure, but not kill.
Actully you just proved my point.

Remember I said he was confertable with the idea of killing those cops.

And your scans just proved that.

There's no way one of those cops could have survived that hit if they didnt get out in time.

And there's no was that Batman could have 100% known that they would all get out safely.

It was a very real possibility that one of them "COULD" have gotten left in that car and if so he would have been killed.

And Batman would be the killer.

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and what about Green Lantern. Robin almost killed him but Bats saved his life and he even said he didn't killed
Covered above.

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Originally Posted by ironman29758 View Post
and may I remind that in Batman Year One Detective Flass claimed he heard Batman laughing and in Dark Knight Returns a witness also claimed she heard Batman laughing.
How do ether of those apply to the topic being spoken about???I dont see your point.

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Exactly. And also in Dark Knight Returns, Superman thinks to himself, "You were the one who laughed...That scary laugh of yours..."
I still dont see what Batman laughing has to do with anything.

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And there's that "we have to be criminals" line that we see him say to Green Lantern in All-Star Batman & Robin #9 (and Green Lantern himself thinks about Batman saying that to him in DK2).

And in Dark Knight Returns Superman again thinks to himself about Batman laughing.

And we see Superman worrying about Batman making them look bad in the eyes of the public in All-Star Batman & Robin.
And that they'd use Batman as an excuse.
About the only thing your proving is that Frank likes to keep a common theme in his Batman stories.

Boy what a shock

None of this is proof that both stories are told in the same universe.

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