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Old 01-12-2009, 12:18 AM   #76
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Default Re: Tim Boyle's The Phantom

Going socio-political with The Phantom would be a stroke of genius. And probably also the death knell of the franchise.

Alas.

Personally, I feel the "older" elements should be maintained, simply because above almost anything else, The Phantom is a creature of tradition. We don't need to see him tooling around in a purple SUV, you know? And he doesn't need to live in the cave...it can just be his base of operations. I'm fine with The Phantom having an otherwise "normal" existence until he's needed.

Personally, I think this is not a problem, but the core of the film, and an angle you play with...how long can we hold into tradition when modern life presses us to evolve? High-tech armor in the jungle fits perfectly in that context. The juxtaposition of it is key.

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Old 01-13-2009, 02:44 PM   #77
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Just saw 1996 The Phantom.

It kinda irks me that Billy Zane and Kristy Swanson never took off in Hollywood for some odd reason. Maybe i need to make a thread about actors who never made it big though they had the potential.

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Old 01-15-2009, 08:26 AM   #78
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Sorry for my belated response to this, but I've had some trouble with my web access.

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Iím still not sure about the idea of a new Phantom movie, at least one set today. Some characters just belong to their own time and are very hard to update. Although an extreme example try updating Robin Hood for example. It wonít work. The Phantom is a bit like that too although no as bad as he is newer but still difficult, unless you change the character a lot. Like the Phantom 2040. I guess thatís why there has never been an attempt on a Phantom animated series set today. Donít even mention Defenders of the Earth please.
Once again, I don't see how the Phantom doesn't work in our modern world any worse than any other fictional character created at the same time. But yes, Defenders of the Earth was sh**.

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You need to change so much for the Phantom to work for todayís audience that it would end up being almost another character so they did an alternative take on him instead of trying to update him. But the Phantom in 2040 is barely the Phantom at all. Just the costume. I mean he even becomes invisible. But maybe thatís what they should do if they want to make a modern Phantom movie. Make a 2040 movie. Otherwise some of the concepts of the original Phantom will be hard to sell to a contemporary audience unless they drastically change the character but then the die hard fans will complain. Seems like a no win deal for me. I mean, a jungle hero who rides a white horse? In 2009? How many people want to see that in a general audience? Yes I know heís in the jungle and a horse is handy but how about giving him a dirty bike or ATV instead? To modernize him you need to think about these details. At least if the horse was black, but a white horse is so, donít know, corny? Like a prince on white horseback. The costume thing now, we know the tights are a no-no and people are talking armor, but armor in the jungle? What type of armor? A hi-tech armor in the jungle wonít fit. Then he wears an armor, hi-tech or not and he rides aÖer..horse? Is he a knight? A hi-tech armor will surely not fit a horse. Or do they give armor to the horse too. Then it will really look like a knight LOL.
I think there are far better ways to update the character than the mediocre 2040 series, which as you say is barely the Phantom at all.

As for the jungle setting, I think it only makes the Phantom more interesting and unique as opposed to other costume heroes, who mostly operates only in big cities. The Phantom is a much more "global" character than arguably any other comic book hero, and fights evil wherever or whenever he finds it. So even if some audiences will be turned off by him operating in the jungle (I really don't see how anybody can be that, but then again, if the whole world agreed with me on everything the Phantom would be as popular as James Bond).

Your point about the ATV is cool, but remember, the Phantom lives in some of the deepest, darkest woods in the world (in his world, at least!), and riding a horse through such tight terrain is much more practical and logical.

Funny that you mention he should have a black horse, since he actually used on in the last issue I read.
However, I disagree that a white horse is corny... (Doesn't the Lone Ranger have one too?) I never looked at it in the way that it makes the Phantom look like some kind of knight, but if it does, I don't see the problem with that. He is, after all, a very heroic, moralistic character, so that comparasion is just fitting, IMO.

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Then thereís this guy who lives in a cave, in 2009? ďWhere have you been dude, have you been living in a cave?Ē, Phantom: ďUh, yes, why? Is there anything wrong with thatĒ in a Billy Zane campy voice. I mean would work great for campy but. If you have him living on a house and the cave is only his base of operations it becomes too Batman. But somebody living in a cave in a serious movie for todayís audience will be hard to take serious. How about the guns, should he still have his Colt 45s which are more than outdated today or is it okay for him to have Glocks for example?
That cave line is actually brilliant, and it would bring the whole theatre down if Boyle wrote it in the screenplay. There's a difference between making a camp film and having humour in your picture. I don't see the Zane film as camp, rather as the director described it, "an adventure movie with twinkle in the eye". I do hope a new film is a bit more self-serious, though.

I don't think people will find the cave cheesy if it's done in a much more awe-inspiring, mysterious way than they did in the Zane film, where it was just like, "Look! There's a big cave that looks like a skull!". The cave needs to be explained in the origin sequences, like it's been done many times in the comic.
The idea of a mysterious ghost from the deep woods of Bengalla who lives in a skull cave will sound quite creepy if Boyle is able to bring enough mystique to his script.

As for him living in a house but operating in the cave, this doesn't work. Falk tried that in the seventies/eighties, where the Phantom and his family lived in a big house, but I think even Falk felt it didn't work very well, and moved them back to the cave.

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Another thing I never liked about the Phantom but this is more of a personal thing and has nothing to do with updating the character is the fact he is the commander of the jungle patrol. Sounds silly and corny. Itís like having Batman being the commissioner of police. I would rather have him working with them but not being their boss. Not to mention that this would also imply too much that the Phantom is their ruler, a white guy in a throne and the commander.
But even with all that people are saying they donít want another light hearted movie but how else could it be? It has to be light hearted and tong in cheek in order to have all this in a movie set in 2009. To have a serious film drastic changes will have to be made. People seem to forget to consider little details like these when talking about a 2009 Phantom. So I think fans will have to choose, light hearted and loyal since the Phantom seems a light hearted character or serious and darker and with a lot of changes.
Why is it silly and corny? The Jungle Patrol was founded by the sixth Phantom, and there is a whole great backstory out there explaining why he is now the "secret" commander. It's not like he sends them out to do his dirty work, he usually only uses them to give him important information about criminals and such.

Again, I have to say I don't see why this all has to be "light hearted and tounge in cheek" to work in a 2009 film, Seth. Is it REALLY any more believeable with a psychopathic billionaire who tries intimidating bad guys buy dressing up as a giant bat, fights a guy dressing up as a clown, and basically "flies" by the help of his special high-tech cape? Not in my book.
Quote:
Going socio-political with The Phantom would be a stroke of genius. And probably also the death knell of the franchise.

Alas.

Personally, I feel the "older" elements should be maintained, simply because above almost anything else, The Phantom is a creature of tradition. We don't need to see him tooling around in a purple SUV, you know? And he doesn't need to live in the cave...it can just be his base of operations. I'm fine with The Phantom having an otherwise "normal" existence until he's needed.

Personally, I think this is not a problem, but the core of the film, and an angle you play with...how long can we hold into tradition when modern life presses us to evolve? High-tech armor in the jungle fits perfectly in that context. The juxtaposition of it is key.
Yeah, I don't think there would be an audience for a comic book movie that tried to deal with real world issues. However, modern day piracy would be perfect for a Phantom movie.

Good post. If the film is about what I believe it is (the 21st Phantom having to give up being the Phantom, with his son insecure about whether he should take over the legacy or not), there would be great opportunities to evolve the character in a very natural way, with "our" Phantom representing tradition and the son (hopefully played by Sam Worthington) evolvement. This would make sense for longtime fans and general audiences alike.

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Just saw 1996 The Phantom.

It kinda irks me that Billy Zane and Kristy Swanson never took off in Hollywood for some odd reason. Maybe i need to make a thread about actors who never made it big though they had the potential.
If there was any justice in this world, Billy Zane would be as big as... Well, as big as he was after Titanic came out. I don't know what happened to his career afterwards, but he deserves roles in better movies.

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Old 01-15-2009, 02:27 PM   #79
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I should add that I find the Phantom to be the most believeable costume hero of them all, and another major reason for this is that the villains he fights are for the most part considerably more down to earth and realistic than what you find in most other comics. I hope that is kept in a movie, with no superpowered bad guys or another weapon of doom or something.

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Old 01-15-2009, 02:35 PM   #80
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question: was Xander Drax created just for 1996 Phandom movie?

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Old 01-15-2009, 06:50 PM   #81
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^ I believe so.

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Old 01-16-2009, 12:47 AM   #82
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Default Re: Tim Boyle's The Phantom

who had the best mustache: Treat Williams (The Phantom) or Timothy Dalton (The Rocketeer)?

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Old 01-16-2009, 03:33 AM   #83
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Dalton, because he is one of my favourite actors, and Williams, um, is definetely not...

Falk actually created two villains named Drax and Quill (after James Remar's henchman character) after the movie came out.

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Old 01-16-2009, 04:23 AM   #84
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I should add that I find the Phantom to be the most believeable costume hero of them all, and another major reason for this is that the villains he fights are for the most part considerably more down to earth and realistic than what you find in most other comics. I hope that is kept in a movie, with no superpowered bad guys or another weapon of doom or something.
Drax and Quill in the Billy Zane film were...generic to say the least. It wasn't until the Sighn Brotherhood came in that the bad guys got interesting.

I just hope that the villains that Tim Boyle has included in the script will be interesting enough. The hero is only as good as the villain, an adage that stands true. In fact, villains are always the hook for me when it comes to an action/adventure/comic film. If they fail to be a threat, then the movie in some capacity has failed. The sense of 'doom' and 'danger' has to be there; otherwise, what's the point of the movie?

That's why I like the villains to be grounded, but still have that slight larger-than-life appeal with a sense of a heighten reality. A Hans Gruber business type would work well if the charisma is there. The Sighn Brotherhood could work well, or a modern band of pirates.

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Old 01-17-2009, 07:02 AM   #85
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I rather liked Quill, but I think Kabai Singh and his pirates should have been the main bad guys. Cary Tagawa was fantastic in that role, and you've got to love a character who is proud to describe himself evil.

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I just hope that the villains that Tim Boyle has included in the script will be interesting enough. The hero is only as good as the villain, an adage that stands true. In fact, villains are always the hook for me when it comes to an action/adventure/comic film. If they fail to be a threat, then the movie in some capacity has failed. The sense of 'doom' and 'danger' has to be there; otherwise, what's the point of the movie?

That's why I like the villains to be grounded, but still have that slight larger-than-life appeal with a sense of a heighten reality. A Hans Gruber business type would work well if the charisma is there. The Sighn Brotherhood could work well, or a modern band of pirates.
Sure, agree with you here, and that grounded, but still kind of out there description is one that fits a lot of Phantom villains. Mike Bullock created one called Manuel Ortega, who blaims the Phantom for killing his wife and paints his disfigured face so that it resembles a skull, who would be great in a movie. So would General Bababu, despite the name. Singh I'd like to see saved for a potential sequel, origin sequences aside, but if Boyle can do something interesting with them in Legacy, bring 'em on.

The most important thing is that we stay out of Marvel/DC territory and sees a bad guy without superstrength or something.

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Old 01-19-2009, 03:40 PM   #86
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Phantom 2040 was excellent!

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Old 01-19-2009, 05:43 PM   #87
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^ If there were to be a 100 or 60 countdown of best superhero tv cartoons, I would put Phantom 2040 on that list. This show paved the way for Batman Beyond. Ironically, very much the same way The Phantom paved the way for Batman in comics.


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Old 01-20-2009, 07:27 AM   #88
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There are parts of 2040 I love, and parts I don't like very much... But the show has a big fanbase, it seems, and has become something of a cult-series. I wish it would all be released on DVD, I have only seen six episodes.

It could make a fantastic lice action movie one day, if they "updated" it to "Phantom 2060/2070" or something.

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Old 01-20-2009, 09:48 AM   #89
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^ If there were to be a 100 or 60 countdown of best superhero tv cartoons, I would put Phantom 2040 on that list. This show paved the way for Batman Beyond. Ironically, very much the same way The Phantom paved the way for Batman in comics.
The Phantom's influence on Batman is limited too the Bruce Wayne's oath and in aspects of the costume.

Batman is based almost entirely on the pulp hero, the Shadow. [Batman is neither the first nor the last character inspired by the Shadow] Even the very first Batman comic is copied from a Shadow story.

You can read more about the whole thing here:

Part 1:
http://www.comicmix.com/news/2007/06...cal-syndicate/

Part 2:
http://www.comicmix.com/news/2007/06...-shadow-knows/

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Old 01-20-2009, 12:02 PM   #90
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^ Yeah, I know Bob Kane was influenced primarily by Zorro(just as Lee Falk was when he created The Phantom) and The Bat Whispers. But I think The Phantom deserves quite a bit of credit in the creation of Batman and alot of credit for the success of Batman. Bob Kane's initial cunceptual, crude drawing of Batman was a guy dressed in red with a domino mask, like The Lone Ranger's, and had bat wings. Bill Finger, influenced by The Phantom's look, suggested that the mask be a hood, the costume be grey, and the pupils white. There's also The Skull Cave. So the question is; had it not been for The Phantom, would Batman's look had been as recognizeable and iconic as it turned out to be? Because remember, comicbooks are primarily, at least back then, a visual medium.

Also, I think it's important to remember that initially, in 1936, before the jungle setting was established, The Phantom operated in New York at night, while at day he was playboy Jimmy Wells. After Batman became very successful, in the format of the comicbook which was now overshadowing the newspaper comic strip and as a result Bats overshadowed The Phantom, Lee Falk felt forced to change The Phantom by placing him in the jungle and deprive him of a dual identity. As far as Lee Falk is concerned, Batman is a copy of The Phantom. He has expressed.


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Old 01-20-2009, 02:11 PM   #91
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Actually, that's not quite right. Falk's original intention was that the Phantom's alias would be that of wealthy, "lazy" playboy Jimmy Wells (VERY Bruce Wayne-like), but he never actually went out and revealed this to his readers. Thus, when Falk came up with an idea he liked even better, the jungle setting and the whole legacy aspect, he decided to make this the way the Phantom should be midway in his first story, The Singh Brotherhood, from 1936 (Batman was created in 1939, or am I wrong?). Wells now vanished out of the story (though he appeared in the Zane movie), and it was revealed the Phantom had only been in NY for some months (if I remember correctly), but actually lived in the deep jungles of Bengalla and fought crime all over the world.

BTW, that's some interesting info about Batman's look. I never knew this, although it was always obviously where the tights and white eyes were lifted from... In that way, pretty much every superhero has copied the Phantom.

I think Falk must have been a bit inspired by the Shadow too... The guns, the whole "mysterious, scary crimefighter" angle. And he probably got the idea of the skull mark from the Spider. I even read Falk wrote Shadow radio plays long before he created the Phantom, but I'm not sure how true that is.

And yeah, Falk expressed he felt that most costume heroes that came after his creations owed him big time, and though he never said it in a way that could be perceived as arrogant or something (he had no reason to complain, as the character made him a very rich man), he did talk about how the Phantom (and even Mandrake) had influenced the superheroes in an interview published in Comic Book Marketplace.

Another influence the Phantom can have had on Batman, besides the things mentioned by Rogue Trooper, is the way their origin stories starts (the murder of their parents basically f**s them both up, and they compensate their loss by trying to make sure nobody will experience the same thing ever again by dressing up in weird uniforms and fighting bad guys).

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Old 01-20-2009, 04:39 PM   #92
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I actually think a BB, TDK-like style would suit the character well. He is an extraordinary being in an ordinary world, and the semi-realism of Nolan's movies are essentially what we've seen done in the Phantom comic since it started.
I don't think there is anything wrong with being inspired by these movies, in fact, I applaud it if they are ambitious enough to try and reach that kind of quality. As I've said before, there are already two light hearted Phantom films that I enjoy, time for something different with the character on screen.
I totally support them to aspire for the quality of the recent Batman movies. What I don’t want is that they make a Phantom movie and take the liberties they took with the Batman character to fit a “realistic” world. I also don’t want them to try to explain every little detail like they did with Batman because you border the ridiculous. It’s like trying to explain how a light saber works. Who cares and what does it matter?




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It's an excellent trilogy published in Phantom #17, 18 and 19, called Invisible Children, written by the ever excellent Mike Bullock, the best thing to happen to the character since, well, I can't remember that far back. Highly recommended reading!
Oh that’s what you were talking about. I have read it. I have all the Moonstone’s issues and some of the graphic novels too. I didn’t find “Invisible Children” that dark, deep or particularly good or well written. Actually I find the Moonstone run extremely poorly written . Really second rate stuff. In terms of American Phantom I find the DC and Marvel run way better than what Moonstone is doing now. It’s almost like they don’t have the money to hire the high end writers and need to make do with second rate ones not to mention what they did with the character.



By the way, actually it’s very clear that Batman was heavily inspired by Zorro. The Shadow himself was probably Zorro inspired too as were most pulp characters. Just look at the black hat and black cloak and facial cover. But Batman is an almost straight knock off rip off of Zorro. He’s just an updated Zorro. There are more similarities than differences and the differences pretty much sum up to just what was needed to update him to the 20th century. The only major difference is really the bat motive. Now from the Shadow Batman just really took the creeping out the criminals aspect because the mystery and creature of the night is also from Zorro. The fact Batman had a gun in the beginning doesn’t mean he is mostly influenced by the Shadow. If one can’t see Batman is Zorro in a bat costume and set in the 20th century instead of 19th I don’t know what could be more obvious than that. Just line up all character traits and you will clearly see it, even down to the cowl mask. Batman just added the pointy ears.

And the Batcave is also inspired by the Fox cave from Zorro and not the Skull cave which was probably also inspired by the Fox cave itself. From the Phantom all Batman took was the tights and the blank eyes which became standard for superheroes.

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Old 01-20-2009, 05:13 PM   #93
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From the Phantom all Batman took was the tights and the blank eyes which became standard for superheroes.
...and the oath to dedicate his life to fighting evil to avenge the death of his parents(in The Phantom's case his father). This detail, as well as yours above, are vital elements of what makes Batman a cultural icon. So, while The Phantom may not have been the primary influence in the creation of Batman, it is an important one, nonetheless.


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Old 01-20-2009, 05:27 PM   #94
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...and the oath to dedicate his life to fighting evil to avenge the death of his parents(in The Phantom's case his father). This detail, as well as yours above, are vital elements of what makes Batman a cultural icon. So, while The Phantom may not have been the primary influence in the creation of Batman, it is an important one, nonetheless.

Oh yes, of course.

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Old 01-20-2009, 09:46 PM   #95
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By the way, actually itís very clear that Batman was heavily inspired by Zorro. The Shadow himself was probably Zorro inspired too as were most pulp characters. Just look at the black hat and black cloak and facial cover. But Batman is an almost straight knock off rip off of Zorro. Heís just an updated Zorro. There are more similarities than differences and the differences pretty much sum up to just what was needed to update him to the 20th century. The only major difference is really the bat motive. Now from the Shadow Batman just really took the creeping out the criminals aspect because the mystery and creature of the night is also from Zorro. The fact Batman had a gun in the beginning doesnít mean he is mostly influenced by the Shadow. If one canít see Batman is Zorro in a bat costume and set in the 20th century instead of 19th I donít know what could be more obvious than that. Just line up all character traits and you will clearly see it, even down to the cowl mask. Batman just added the pointy ears.
I'm afraid you are mistaken -- and understandably so. The Zorro myth has been passed on for so long as fact even by Batman's "creator", Bob Kane [maybe especially by him], no one really takes time to look into it. I'm not saying that no aspects from Zorro influenced Batman. Perhaps the most significant involved Douglas Fairbanks acrobatics when he portrayed Zorro in the very first Zorro movie The Mark of Zorro 1920.

Check out the article I linked too [more links just below] - even if you don't know much about The Shadow, it becomes painfully obvious that the majority of Batman comes directly from The Shadow. Here's a quick excerpt:

Quote:
Greenberger: What makes this story [Partners of Peril] significant for comic book fans?

Anthony Tollin: Well, it clearly establishes that without The Shadow, there would be no Batman! Since the first Batman story was a start-to-finish lift of an earlier Shadow novel, it establishes that the similarities between the two characters were no accident. Bruce Wayne is wealthy young man about town Lamont Cranston. The friendship between Bruce and Commissioner James Gordon (whose name comes from The Shadow's sister magazine, The Whsiperer) is no different from the relationship between Cranston and Weston. Batman's talent for escapes also comes from The Shadow, since the first recorded Batman escape duplicates The Shadow's in the same story. And the Shadow lifts continued in subsequent stories, even ones written by Gardner Fox, which gave Batman an autogiro, Bat-a-rangs like The Shadow's cable-outfitted "yellow boomerang," and a suction-cup device for scaling walls ... all Shadow gimmicks. Without the Knight of Darkness, there would be no Dark Knight.



Part 1:

http://www.comicmix.com/news/2007/06...cal-syndicate/

Part 2:

http://www.comicmix.com/news/2007/06...-shadow-knows/

I'll even expand on a tidbit mentioned in the paragraph above. Here it is, the secret origin of Commissioner James Gordon...

The Shadow, proved enormously popular for Street & Smith [the magazine came out twice a month for over a decade] so much so that S&S even created a couple copycats themselves; The Avenger and The Whisperer. I don't know near as much about The Whisperer as I would like, but I'll gladly share what I do know...

The Whisperer started off in a solo magazine, but it did not sell as well as S&S had hoped so they canceled the solo mag. However, the character proved popular enough that S&S brought him back in stories found in The Shadow Magazine's Back Pages.

http://www.geocities.com/jjnevins/pulpsw.html

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The Whisperer, popular enough to survive cancellation and be brought back, debuted in The Whisperer #1, October, 1936. The Whisperer's real identity is James "Wildcat" Gordon, the Commissioner of Police of New York City. Unfortunately, Gordon has an enemy, Henry Bolton, who lusted after the post of Commissioner and sets out to discredit Gordon in revenge. Gordon is annoyed at the slowness of police work and the courts and at being hampered by Bolton, and so became The Whisperer, a costumed vigilante who can deal out justice to criminals without being slowed by technicalities like "arrests" and "due process." The Whisperer dresses in gray and blends into the shadows and the background in much the same manner as the Shadow himself. He wears special plates on his face and in his mouth; these alter the shape of his face so that he is unrecognizable but also prevent him from speaking in anything other than a strange, weird whisper. He also uses "super-silenced" automatics, ,the better to kill you with, my dear. He is aided by Richard "Quick Trigger" Traeger, an aged policeman who is Gordon's right hand man and who made the special plates for Gordon.

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Old 01-21-2009, 04:32 AM   #96
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Default Re: Tim Boyle's The Phantom

Well excuse me Kent Allard, but I’m not mistaking. And for the record I don’t get my info from what Kane or anybody has said but from the fact I know Zorro extremely well and the similarities are clear. Actually the Shadow himself has clearly taken inspiration from Zorro as well.
About the interview you pointed to it was a very interesting read. I learned something new, like “ the other Clark who is the Man of Bronze and promoted as "Superman" in 1934 house ads” which was clearly taken to create the other Clark who became the Man of Steel.
But from off the bat (no pun intended) it’s easy to see the fellow giving the interview has a huge agenda with the Shadow and is a fan and is trying to somehow light his torch again and push him forward. Nothing wrong with that as long as you don’t ignore your own faults to talk about other people’s faults. Then in the end of the interview it came:
Greenberger: Do you think this will change people's perceptions of Batman's origins?
Tollin: Actually, my hope is that it alters people's perceptions of The Shadow.
GOTCHA! It was so obvious that’s what he was after. To promote the Shadow, to breath some new life into a long “forgotten” hero. It seems he is a publisher and is re-printing some Shadow stories?
Anyways, it’s fair enough as I said. I just wished he had not ignored what inspired the Shadow himself. He goes and on about how Batman stole from the Shadow and Doc Savage which is the other character he is re-printing along with the Shadow, but never touches on the things the Shadow has stolen from characters which came before him giving the impression the Shadow is original which couldn’t be more far from the truth. The Shadow borrows heavily from Zorro, Sherlock Holmes and other older characters. Funny how he goes on about how Stan Lee was influenced by Doc Savage and other characters and keeps ignoring what influenced the Shadow. Put the Shadow on a black horse and let’s see how many people won’t call him Zorro.
Not that the Shadow is a rip off from Zorro, oh no. But the influence is definitely there.

There are a lot to be touched upon on that article and a lot of half truths, generalizations and assumptions but bellow are the thing that caught my attention the most:

“he launched The Shadow Magazine and developed the characters for Doc Savage and the Avenger, basing elements of all three pulp superheroes on Richard Henry Savage's adventurous life..”

Excuse me but Doc Savage, Shadow and Avenger are not considered superheroes just like Zorro is not. And it bothered me that he kept on referring to the Shadow as a superhero throughout the interview and he only refers to him as pulp hero once. The Shadow is a pulp hero not a superhero. So much for somebody calling himself a comic historian.

Here’s some excerpts from the list of things he says Batman “lifted” from the Shadow:

“…gave Batman an autogiro, Bat-a-rangs like The Shadow's cable-outfitted "yellow boomerang," and a suction-cup device for scaling walls ... all Shadow gimmicks.”

Really?

“The Shadow's cable-outfitted "yellow boomerang,”

Yes, the boomerang may be but the use of a rope to swing above buildings and lift himself up etc as Batman uses the batarang with rope and or batrope and most recently the grapple gun is directly from Zorro using his bullwhip to swing around and between city roofs and over criminals heads and climb buildings. The use of a boomerang as a weapon can be argued that was inspired by Zorro’s bolas. A boomerang is a hunting weapon and so is bolas. Zorro’s hat is also weighted and he used to throw it like a Frisbee to harm bad guys.

“The Golden-Age Batman lifted The Shadow's suction cup climbing device,”
who lifted it from Zorro’s fox climbing claws? Who lift it from the Ninjas?

“Doc's utility belt (which Bill Finger acknowledged was the inspiration for Batman's). “

Zorro carried his bullwhip, sword, gun powder, pistol, dagger and other gadgets of the time in his belt. An utility belt of sorts? Hmmm.

“along with the friendship with the Gotham police commissioner.”

Well, Sgt. Pedro Gonzales is Zorro's enemy but he is Diego's friend.
Talking about friends, Diego’s “butler” Bernardo is clearly the inspiration for Alfred as Bernardo as Alfred helps, cares, keeps Zorro’s gear and goes on the field as Zorro’s spy just like Pennyworth.

“But the most lasting influence is to be found in Batman's talent for escaping deathtraps, “
Houdini was huge back then and although the interviewed does mention him, Zorro is also an escape artist.

Now my favorite:

“Also, Theodore Tinsley's first Shadow novel mentions "bat-like" and "bats" on seven occasions. This is most unusual for a Shadow novel. One really has to ask, did this novel actually inspire Batman's creation from the very start. I mean, it's a bit of a stretch to assume that Kane and Finger came up with the idea of Batman first, and that it was a complete coincidence that the story Finger chose to imitate was comparatively crawling with bats.”

Talk about fishing for more.
The bat inspiration is obviously from Da Vinci’s drawings and the 1926 movie The Bat. This is really hard to even start to argue against. You just need to look at Da Vinci’s bat wing drawings to see where the famous Batman scalloped motive came from and as for the dark, chilling, mysterious tone which the interviewed so strongly insists to have been taken from the Shadow, just watch the 1926 movie The Bat and you will see the mood came from there as well as the idea of a bat man. The Bat is a man dressed in a bat costume with the intent to scare his victims and he uses a flash light with a bat on it to announce his presence and acts from the shadows. Sounds familiar? The Shadow himself probably took the idea from the 1926 The Bat as well as the movie character dresses like the Shadow with a cloak (and a bat mask) and is mysterious, dark and scary. The only difference is The Bat is a thieve.

You see how you can pretty much trace it to a lot of sources?
It’s easy to say Batman is mostly Shadow when you ignore many of the traits Batman has in common with the Shadow are traits the Shadow stole from others himself.
The fact he ignored that kind of compromises his view and really shows his bias, spoiling an otherwise interesting read.
Zorro was pretty much the first hero to use a double identity and in a way set the pace for all non-super powered heroes to come. Batman is clearly one of the characters who have taken more from Zorro apart from almost straight rip-offs like the Lone Ranger or El Coyote. The list of similarities goes on and on.
Although Batman doesn’t leave his mark he has used something similar to a flashlight with a bat on it like a mini bat signal to frighten criminals. Zorro leaves a Z mark and his Z mark can probably be credited as being the inspiration for the superhero symbol-logo.

Batman: millionaire playboy by day, cowl masked dark crime fighter by night.
Zorro: millionaire playboy by day, cowl masked dark crime fighter by night.
Batman HQ is under his mansion.
Zorro’s HQ is under his mansion.
Batman is an agile athlete and acrobat, skilled fighter, calculating and precise tactician and multi-skilled person.
Zorro is an agile athlete and acrobat, skilled fighter, calculating and precise tactician , swordsman, marksman and multi-skilled person.
Batman dresses in a black cape and cowl.
Zorro dresses in a black cape, cowl and hat.
Batman rides a black car which speeds out from an underground hiding place under his mansion.
Zorro rides a black horse which speeds out from an underground hiding place under his mansion.
Batman has an allied butler.
Zorro has an allied butler.
Batman like a “bat” uses the shadows to his advantage to hunt at night.
Zorro like a fox uses the shadows to his advantage to hunt at night.
Batman has the authorities after him even though he is a do gooder.
Zorro has the authorities after him even though he is a do gooder.
Batman uses his smarts to beat his opponents.
Zorro uses his smarts to beat his opponents.

Zorro uses his cape “as a blind, a trip-mat--and when used effectively--a disarming tool.”
Sounds familiar?
Now how many of these traits the shadow has in common with Batman and Zorro? Not many and if he has, he has taken it from Zorro.(?)

I could go on and on but not much point. When I look at Batman I see more Zorro than Shadow. Of course Batman has taken from the Shadow too, no doubt. But to say the Shadow was the main source is a bit short sighted. Concept wise Batman is all Zorro. Story wise and plot wise Batman may have taken more from the Shadow because the Shadow had a more contemporary plot than Zorro who is in the 19th century, but Batman is first and foremost an updated Zorro. But Batman has several other influences as well let’s not forget that.

Now lets get this back on track. This is a Phantom thread. Let’s get back to my favorite character, The Ghost Who Walks. If you would like to elaborate more on your point about Batman being mostly Shadow inspired perhaps it would be better to start another thread although I'm kind of done with it. In my opinion one needs just to look at Batman and then look a hatless Zorro and the Shadow to tell you who inspired who.


Last edited by Ultradude; 01-21-2009 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 01-21-2009, 09:39 AM   #97
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Default Re: Tim Boyle's The Phantom

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I totally support them to aspire for the quality of the recent Batman movies. What I don’t want is that they make a Phantom movie and take the liberties they took with the Batman character to fit a “realistic” world. I also don’t want them to try to explain every little detail like they did with Batman because you border the ridiculous. It’s like trying to explain how a light saber works. Who cares and what does it matter?
Hm, I don't know... I definetely see and understand your point, but I think the heightened reality thing could actually work damn well with a Phantom movie, even better than Batman, since the Phantom's "universe" is a lot more realistic and down to earth than Batman's. He doesn't fight villains as over the top as Mr. Freeze or Clayface. In fact, I'd say the most unrealistic element of the Phantom is the fact he manages to wear an extremely hot costume in Africa!

I guess by modernizing the character, the producers are going to take some liberties anyway, so they might as well look to BB and TDK when doing it, IMO.

Though I quite liked it in the Zane film, I hope the new film stays away from the supernatural. The Phantom is supposed to be an extraordinary being in an ordinary world, and I hope it stays that way in a film. There have been stories with supernatural elements from Egmont and probably other publishers, but Falk always stayed away from it, and sometimes "hinted" on the supernatural rather than showing it full time.


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Oh that’s what you were talking about. I have read it. I have all the Moonstone’s issues and some of the graphic novels too. I didn’t find “Invisible Children” that dark, deep or particularly good or well written. Actually I find the Moonstone run extremely poorly written . Really second rate stuff. In terms of American Phantom I find the DC and Marvel run way better than what Moonstone is doing now. It’s almost like they don’t have the money to hire the high end writers and need to make do with second rate ones not to mention what they did with the character.
Really? I love Moonstone's work on the character. I think Bullock is doing an excellent job with the comic. He's done a fine job keeping the classic Falk tone while updating the character's environment a great deal.

If you haven't already, you should check out their graphic novels Man-Eaters (their best story IMO), The Phantom: Legacy, and Law of the Jungle.

I loved the DC run too. Mark Verheiden took the character to new places, and wrote some tremendously emotional and affecting stories.

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Old 01-21-2009, 10:49 AM   #98
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Default Re: Tim Boyle's The Phantom

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The Phantom is supposed to be an extraordinary being in an ordinary world, and I hope it stays that way in a film. There have been stories with supernatural elements from Egmont and probably other publishers, but Falk always stayed away from it, and sometimes "hinted" on the supernatural rather than showing it full time.
This is an excellent point. This is what Falk intended to do with The Phantom; make it the reversal of Flash Gordon. Flash was an ordinary man in an extraordinary world, whereas Phantom is an extraordinary man in an ordinary world.

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Old 01-21-2009, 11:39 AM   #99
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Default Re: Tim Boyle's The Phantom

That's an even better way of describing it.

No wonder the two characters worked so badly together in Defenders of the Earth, where they decided to give the Phantom superpowers. They also removed his guns, in an effort to be more kid-friendly, I assume, but they totally took the edge of the character away in the process.

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Old 01-21-2009, 11:58 AM   #100
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Default Re: Tim Boyle's The Phantom

^ Heh, yep. Still, I actually have a soft spot for DOE. This show was actually my first exposure to The Phantom, Mandrake, and Lothar. I already knew Flash and Ming, if I recall, from either some comics one of my brothers had(I remember Ming specifically in the cover) or the Filmation cartoons. Can't quite recall which.

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