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Old 01-01-2010, 06:05 AM   #1
3atman
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Default An opinion from a guy who doesn't like Superman

K, right now the masses don't really like Superman. I don't particularly like Superman at all. I just don't see much appeal in a guy who is pretty much godlike, at least thats how I (and lots of others) see him as. It's like a chuck norris joke "a plane is falling out of control and this guy flies up there faster than the plane WITH HIS OWN BODY grabs the plane and brings it to safety without killing anyone" what's next? He does a push up and the earth moves down instead of him moving up?

So, my proposal is that you have to make Superman more vulnerable. Most hardcore fans seem dead set against another origin. So why not make this into Superman's supehero career a bit. Let's say that Lex Luthor has turned a lot of Metropolis against Superman and that the police force and various other people on the Luther payroll is armed with guns that shoot kryptonite.

This way superman doesn't seem so flippin invincible and is a little more relatable. I honestly don't think the problem is necessarily with who is making the movie, but the character itself just isn't as popular because of the character.

Also, maybe give Superman more of an edge. Long into his crime fighting career, maybe he occassionally gets sick of Luther's men trying to kill him and turning good citizens against him so he gets a little brutal (but not unneccessarily). Maybe even have Luthor kill Lois Lane and have Supes momentarily think about leaving the planet because he has no reason to live there.

This is just my opinion and I thought it'd be interesting to give you guys the opinion of "one of those people" who don't particularly care for the Superman character. I'm interested to see you thoughts on this.

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Old 01-01-2010, 09:19 AM   #2
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Default Re: An opinion from a guy who doesn't like Superman

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Originally Posted by 3atman View Post
K, right now the masses don't really like Superman. I don't particularly like Superman at all. I just don't see much appeal in a guy who is pretty much godlike, at least thats how I (and lots of others) see him as. It's like a chuck norris joke "a plane is falling out of control and this guy flies up there faster than the plane WITH HIS OWN BODY grabs the plane and brings it to safety without killing anyone" what's next? He does a push up and the earth moves down instead of him moving up?

So, my proposal is that you have to make Superman more vulnerable. Most hardcore fans seem dead set against another origin. So why not make this into Superman's supehero career a bit. Let's say that Lex Luthor has turned a lot of Metropolis against Superman and that the police force and various other people on the Luther payroll is armed with guns that shoot kryptonite.

This way superman doesn't seem so flippin invincible and is a little more relatable. I honestly don't think the problem is necessarily with who is making the movie, but the character itself just isn't as popular because of the character.

Also, maybe give Superman more of an edge. Long into his crime fighting career, maybe he occassionally gets sick of Luther's men trying to kill him and turning good citizens against him so he gets a little brutal (but not unneccessarily). Maybe even have Luthor kill Lois Lane and have Supes momentarily think about leaving the planet because he has no reason to live there.

This is just my opinion and I thought it'd be interesting to give you guys the opinion of "one of those people" who don't particularly care for the Superman character. I'm interested to see you thoughts on this.
Appreciate what you're saying, but i beleive with the right Director, an origins film will work.

10 mins pretitle based on origin - based on krypton, we see his home planet, their culture and their destruction.

Title and credits, showing a montage of him growing up, discovering powers, saving people in his civilian clothes, going around the world reporting, helping people, building constructions in africa, reporting on violence in iraq and prehaps sheltering a child from a mortar attack, to accepting his new job at daily planet - a montage of that, to the john williams theme would be interesting.

Start the film off with him having worked at the planet a month, we focus on clark and lois, jimmy and perry.

Superman is still an urban legend.

They report on the dogy dealings of mayor cadidate lex luthor - ex Army general, he's using scientific research and development as his platform. His company, lex corp deal in genetics and he is heavily involved in the cloning process and stem cell.

An event occurs that exposes superman to the nation, caught on live t.v, such as a hostage crisis that has got jimmy caught up, making clark act.

Superman is revealed to the world, press go crazy, kids and public get hope again.

government get concerned, call in superman for an aggreement, mutual respect and co-operation.

2 climax's tot he film.

A.
A beast turns up, in middle of no where, Army try to take it down, with out causing too much risk to civilians - superman gets involved. A fight scene, involving the U.S army could be neat. Superman gets caught up in missle fire, the beast uses tanks as objects to throw.
Lex is behind it.

B. Technology is alive, Brainiac, along with lexcorp is behind it and it attacks superman, imagine something like the internet being alive and concious. It could create wars in seconds, firing missiles - supes has to chase them and dispose of them. Banks and top security places becoming unlocked, security failing, could be total chaos.

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Old 01-01-2010, 10:08 AM   #3
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Default Re: An opinion from a guy who doesn't like Superman

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3atman View Post
K, right now the masses don't really like Superman. I don't particularly like Superman at all. I just don't see much appeal in a guy who is pretty much godlike, at least thats how I (and lots of others) see him as. It's like a chuck norris joke "a plane is falling out of control and this guy flies up there faster than the plane WITH HIS OWN BODY grabs the plane and brings it to safety without killing anyone" what's next? He does a push up and the earth moves down instead of him moving up?

So, my proposal is that you have to make Superman more vulnerable. Most hardcore fans seem dead set against another origin. So why not make this into Superman's supehero career a bit. Let's say that Lex Luthor has turned a lot of Metropolis against Superman and that the police force and various other people on the Luther payroll is armed with guns that shoot kryptonite.

This way superman doesn't seem so flippin invincible and is a little more relatable. I honestly don't think the problem is necessarily with who is making the movie, but the character itself just isn't as popular because of the character.

Also, maybe give Superman more of an edge. Long into his crime fighting career, maybe he occassionally gets sick of Luther's men trying to kill him and turning good citizens against him so he gets a little brutal (but not unneccessarily). Maybe even have Luthor kill Lois Lane and have Supes momentarily think about leaving the planet because he has no reason to live there.

This is just my opinion and I thought it'd be interesting to give you guys the opinion of "one of those people" who don't particularly care for the Superman character. I'm interested to see you thoughts on this.
Lex usually uses Kryptonite weapons anyway, and most of his other villains are alien supermonsters, alien gods, alien super robots and K related villains.
So even though Superman is near invincible, his villains are a match for him.

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Old 01-01-2010, 11:56 AM   #4
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Default Re: An opinion from a guy who doesn't like Superman

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Originally Posted by 3atman View Post
K, right now the masses don't really like Superman. I don't particularly like Superman at all. I just don't see much appeal in a guy who is pretty much godlike, at least thats how I (and lots of others) see him as. It's like a chuck norris joke "a plane is falling out of control and this guy flies up there faster than the plane WITH HIS OWN BODY grabs the plane and brings it to safety without killing anyone" what's next? He does a push up and the earth moves down instead of him moving up?

So, my proposal is that you have to make Superman more vulnerable. Most hardcore fans seem dead set against another origin. So why not make this into Superman's supehero career a bit. Let's say that Lex Luthor has turned a lot of Metropolis against Superman and that the police force and various other people on the Luther payroll is armed with guns that shoot kryptonite.

This way superman doesn't seem so flippin invincible and is a little more relatable. I honestly don't think the problem is necessarily with who is making the movie, but the character itself just isn't as popular because of the character.

Also, maybe give Superman more of an edge. Long into his crime fighting career, maybe he occassionally gets sick of Luther's men trying to kill him and turning good citizens against him so he gets a little brutal (but not unneccessarily). Maybe even have Luthor kill Lois Lane and have Supes momentarily think about leaving the planet because he has no reason to live there.

This is just my opinion and I thought it'd be interesting to give you guys the opinion of "one of those people" who don't particularly care for the Superman character. I'm interested to see you thoughts on this.
See, a post like this is exactly the problem. You say that since SOME people (and I emphasize some) don't think that Superman is "cool" or "doesn't work" or whatever, so let's change him. Well... no. You don't understand Superman! You think that, because you don't see the potential in Superman, that he doesn't have any, so the answer is let's turn him into Batman or Punisher or whoever else. I got news for you. There's a reason Superman has lasted 70 years and why he's the global symbol for all superheroes. People do love Superman, they love his values and traits and what he stands for. It's not Superman's fault that Bryan Singer made possibly the worst modern superhero movie in order to re-introduce the character and failed miserably, highlighting all the things people say they don't like about Superman and making people's worst portrait of Superman come true. Arrggh! Bryan Singer killed Superman for an entire generation. Just get a good screenwriter and director in there who truly love the character (not just the old Donner movies) and Superman's potential can be utlized and explode onto a movie screen like never before!

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Old 01-01-2010, 10:02 PM   #5
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Default Re: An opinion from a guy who doesn't like Superman

I am one of the people who thought that Superman is so uncool and unrelatable, until I read the comic books. Here is a guy who can actually be anything he wants to be: he can be a model or he can be the best athlete in the world in any sport. He is also an intelligent guy, so he can be an inventor who gets paid a lot. But despite all of those possibilities to be rich and famous, he chose to be something more meaningful. He chose to be some one who can inspire others, who can protect and defend lives, some one who can help. He chose to risk his life everyday(yes his villains are capable of killing him contrary to popular belief) instead of just getting rich or getting famous. He chose the hard way over the easy way. Not because of some hidden agenda like he wants some praise and recognition, but because of love, his sense of fairness and justice, and the values instilled to him by his earth parents. Now that is what hooked me into Superman, how someone so powerful and superior can have such a sense of responsibility and humility even when he does not need to be. Superman is not special because of his costume or his powers (not that those are not relevant), he is special because of what he tries to do (inspire others, protect and save lives), why he does it (simply to help), and how he does it (very humane and inspiring, very merciful and forgiving even to those who do him wrong). SUPERMAN IS THE COOLEST.

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Old 01-02-2010, 12:27 AM   #6
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Default Re: An opinion from a guy who doesn't like Superman

that is a well thought out post man.

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Old 01-02-2010, 03:59 AM   #7
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Default Re: An opinion from a guy who doesn't like Superman

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Originally Posted by Vaibow View Post
Appreciate what you're saying, but i beleive with the right Director, an origins film will work.

10 mins pretitle based on origin - based on krypton, we see his home planet, their culture and their destruction.

Title and credits, showing a montage of him growing up, discovering powers, saving people in his civilian clothes, going around the world reporting, helping people, building constructions in africa, reporting on violence in iraq and prehaps sheltering a child from a mortar attack, to accepting his new job at daily planet - a montage of that, to the john williams theme would be interesting.

Start the film off with him having worked at the planet a month, we focus on clark and lois, jimmy and perry.

Superman is still an urban legend.

They report on the dogy dealings of mayor cadidate lex luthor - ex Army general, he's using scientific research and development as his platform. His company, lex corp deal in genetics and he is heavily involved in the cloning process and stem cell.

An event occurs that exposes superman to the nation, caught on live t.v, such as a hostage crisis that has got jimmy caught up, making clark act.

Superman is revealed to the world, press go crazy, kids and public get hope again.

government get concerned, call in superman for an aggreement, mutual respect and co-operation.

2 climax's tot he film.

A.
A beast turns up, in middle of no where, Army try to take it down, with out causing too much risk to civilians - superman gets involved. A fight scene, involving the U.S army could be neat. Superman gets caught up in missle fire, the beast uses tanks as objects to throw.
Lex is behind it.

B. Technology is alive, Brainiac, along with lexcorp is behind it and it attacks superman, imagine something like the internet being alive and concious. It could create wars in seconds, firing missiles - supes has to chase them and dispose of them. Banks and top security places becoming unlocked, security failing, could be total chaos.
Very nice. Alternatively, I'd like to see Lex cultivate a public fear of Superman, extending to the gov, with B being used to win the people's trust. Along those lines, it might be better to make LexCorp a computer company with a project attempting to pass the Turing Test that gets out of control. Just a thought.

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Old 01-02-2010, 05:22 AM   #8
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Default Re: An opinion from a guy who doesn't like Superman

My roommate has a boxset of a lot of Superman movies and documentaries. I've been trying to educate myself on Superman as much as possible. I think the reason why I had, and many others had this idea that while yes, superman could do anything he wants and yet he still doesn't fit in with humans and would rather be modest and save the world than richa nd fame, that's still not all that interesting. I just don't think he's been challenged enough. Like I said, a lot of people see him as indestructible. I still believe in my idea of basically Luthor arming Metropolis with anti superman everything, guns, knives, everything.

However I would like him to be challenged mentally too. Maybe have the movie like a "fall and rise" type of thing. Have it start out, show him saving something ridiculous like he does, but then do a montage of the decline of Superman in Metropolis kinda like the Watchmen montage. Show how Luthor has brainwashed citizens. Then later on in the movie, even have superman contemplate leaving, do the whole out in space looking at the world thing, he instead sees people helping each other, and is inspired to help these people against the evils of Luthor realizing that they really are ultimately good.

Is that good or am I showing Superman as too morally weak by contemplating leaving?

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Old 01-02-2010, 05:43 AM   #9
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Default Re: An opinion from a guy who doesn't like Superman

And he should fight a giant spider or polar bear.

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Old 01-02-2010, 05:49 AM   #10
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Default Re: An opinion from a guy who doesn't like Superman

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Originally Posted by 3atman View Post
My roommate has a boxset of a lot of Superman movies and documentaries. I've been trying to educate myself on Superman as much as possible. I think the reason why I had, and many others had this idea that while yes, superman could do anything he wants and yet he still doesn't fit in with humans and would rather be modest and save the world than richa nd fame, that's still not all that interesting. I just don't think he's been challenged enough. Like I said, a lot of people see him as indestructible. I still believe in my idea of basically Luthor arming Metropolis with anti superman everything, guns, knives, everything.

However I would like him to be challenged mentally too. Maybe have the movie like a "fall and rise" type of thing. Have it start out, show him saving something ridiculous like he does, but then do a montage of the decline of Superman in Metropolis kinda like the Watchmen montage. Show how Luthor has brainwashed citizens. Then later on in the movie, even have superman contemplate leaving, do the whole out in space looking at the world thing, he instead sees people helping each other, and is inspired to help these people against the evils of Luthor realizing that they really are ultimately good.

Is that good or am I showing Superman as too morally weak by contemplating leaving?

I recommend you read some Superman comic books to further help you appreciate the man, because it is in the funny books I got to understand what makes Superman cool. I recommend you buy some of these (he hets tested in these books physically, mentally and emotionally).

1. ALL-STAR SUPERMAN VOL. 1 AND 2
2. SUPERMAN: FOR ALL SEASONS
3. THE DEATH OF SUPERMAN
4. SUPERMAN: UP, UP, AND AWAY
5. SUPERMAN: BRAINIAC
6. WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE MAN OF TOMORROW

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Old 01-02-2010, 05:58 AM   #11
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thanks for that list, I actually was googling "top 10 Superman comics" I've read almost all the classic Batmans so I need to get more updated on Supes more than just movies and documentaries because you really don't get the essense of a character until you read the comics.

I guess what I feel is that it's not so much his physical perfection that I don't like, it's the moral perfection. I just feel like we live in a society where a person with perfect morals annoys more than inspires. then again, I could be wrong.

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Old 01-02-2010, 07:39 AM   #12
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seriously, if you want to watch how superman SHOULD be portrayed, in that he has ALL his power and the writers don't use every plot device to weaken him, watch JUSTICE LEAGUE and JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED. The raise the villians to the level of superman they don't lower superman to the level of the villians
*cough* SR *cough*
*cough* smallville *cough*

JL/JLU - perfect portrayal of superman
Spectacular spider-man - perfect portrayal of superman

singer doesn't get the character of superman, at ALL. I can say that with confidence and I don't even class myself as a superman fan but I've read enough of the character to know SR was an epic FAIL.

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Old 01-02-2010, 08:09 AM   #13
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Default Re: An opinion from a guy who doesn't like Superman

3atman, I don't think we have to go that far. I've been proposing changes for a while that will make him more believable. No matter what the anit-Byrne faction says, a Superman who can move worlds is not someone you can write believable conflict for. He needs to be depowered to the level where he can't lift a whole continent and where a mortar shell may not kill him but it can knock him around.

Following that, he needs to have real emotion and sometimes make decisions from his anger. I don't want to see him kill anyone but there have been some good scenes in comix that illustrate my point. There was a Curt Swan issue where Supes was confronting whalers at sea. He floated above them and, while pointing a thumb at his chest emblem, said the following:

"Do you know what this means? It means I can mop up the ocean with scum like you!"

The look on his face was pure anger and it was a good scene. The average 'Bad Guys' need to be afraid to piss him off. That's the bottom line.

And we need to be able to relate to Clark. Clark needs to be our down-to-earth tie in to this guy. We can't have a goofy Clark and expect audiences to do anything but treat him as comic-relief. Clark doesn't need to be portrayed as a two fisted guy George Reeve's played him as (although I still kind-of like that) but he doesn't need to be played as a milquetoast joke. ... Even if he does wink at the audience. We need to see something more akin to how Dean Cain plays him. Regardless of what the naysayers around insist, a Clark who's just a cover for the guy we can never be (flying around and bending steel in his bare hands) just compounds the problem. A Clark who owns the full gamut of emotions (not just this 'puppy-like' love for Lois but anger, confusion, and amusement) is someone that a good writer can compose good dialogue for and an audience composed of more than comic book fans can identify with.

And we don't need to have a Luthor army of Kryptonite toting thugs to do any of that.

Which brings me to another point. His adversaries need to be exciting and worthy of confronting him just as his supporting cast needs to have strong characterizations. Not just Lois but Jimmy and Perry, too. As well as adding people like Maggie Sawyer and Dan Turpin. Jimmy needs to be more of a modern early 20 something and Perry needs to be a great bear of a man. They got it right with JK Simmons portrayal of J. Jonah Jameson and it's a performance that draws right from the comix. Need to do that same thing with Perry. I would probably use Timm/Dini's approach to both Jimmy and Perry.

And I do want a reboot.


Last edited by DavidTyler; 01-02-2010 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 01-02-2010, 01:09 PM   #14
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Default Re: An opinion from a guy who doesn't like Superman

No new ideas in this thread at all

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Old 01-02-2010, 02:05 PM   #15
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Default Re: An opinion from a guy who doesn't like Superman

3atman, I think as you become more educated on the character, you'll realize that Kryptonite is one of the most overused plot devices in the history of plot devices.

I think we need to be careful of how much we depower Superman. Yeah everyone wants Superman to break a sweat, but everyone wants him to be able to take out every other superbeing in every comic book universe as well.

As for my personal feelings on the powers and how they are used, I don't want him to have god-like powers, but I do think he should be stronger than any other Kryptonian or equivalent race that he comes across. This would be due to the fact that he grew up on Earth and he was exposed to the yellow Sun, et al in a much different way than any other Kryptonian would be. I think this leaves room to make Superman a little more powerful than he "should be" when compared to other similar beings.
Also, let's drop the idea of Superman being stripped of his powers. They are a product of his physiology, not some magical thing that can be taken away or transferred. Even without the yellow Sun, I'd like to see him have his Golden Age power set, as that comes from his physiology and not solar radiation. No matter what environment he's in, he's still Kryptonian and still has the same molecular density.
The "scourging at the pillar" scene from SR is stupid because even when weakend by Kryptonite, he's still a 6' 4", 225lb man! Yes he'd be in extreme pain from the radiation poisoning, but he'd still be able to fight, al a "Up, Up and Away." Yeah he was outnumbered, but the real Superman still would've put up a fight.

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Old 01-03-2010, 09:37 AM   #16
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Default Re: An opinion from a guy who doesn't like Superman

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No new ideas in this thread at all
What were you expecting? There is no news and those of us that have a definitive vision aren't suddenly going to change just for the sake of 'newness'?

The majority of us think that the problem with the last film and the character's general presentation in live-action films is based on the fact that the character is one-dimensional and boring. Add to that how far Singer strayed from source and you have the reason that a lot of us are vehemently pushing our point.

I don't want 'new' ideas. I want the 'right' ideas. We could have Superman changed so that his costume is Black and Silver, Clark is now presented as very effeminate and a television reporter, Jimmy is now a black transexual girl who goes by 'Jimi', Lois is much older and Asian, Jor-el was a criminal and still around to plague his adult son as his main adversary, Luthor is now the Saint of Metropolis who not only helps Superman with his battles but also runs a shelter for the homeless.


Oh.. and Krypton was never destroyed... in fact it never existed. Krypton was actually Earth's future and Jor-el sent Kal-el into the past to be his own great grandfather.

There ... new enough for you?

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