Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

[Chris Wallace]

And why are those days over? Huh? Because Hollywood ended them, that's why. And audiences went along with it. I put "realism" in quotes because the need to justify seems to translate almost invariable into reality vs. fantasy. Now I'm not saying that every character should wear tights onscreen but I think there should be more wiggle room for what we assume audiences will & will not accept. (I can't believe I'm siding with JAK after all the times we've fought!) Costumes are generally justified in comics and it's not over-analyzed. I would hate to see someone like Black Panther decked out in leather because it's considered "more realistic". And I DO NOT want Cap in his "ultimized" costume either. I want to see Captain America, not a patriotic reject from G.I. Joe.

[jmc]

It seems to be working regardless of who ended it. Again you have to take it on a character by character basis, even if the comics have justified costumes that doesn't guarantee it's suitable for film, again it's cliched but what works on the page doesn't always work on film. Most cases there's a middle ground that can be reach, but that still won't wash with some people. Honestly, if people want 100% comic actuate costume they're probably better off browsing some cosplay websites or going through the many fan films on youtube to get their fix because I'm doubtful Hollywood is gonna start rolling back to bright coloured spandex any time soon.

[JAK®]

Originally Posted by jmc

It seems to be working regardless of who ended it. Again you have to take it on a character by character basis, even if the comics have justified costumes that doesn't guarantee it's suitable for film, again it's cliched but what works on the page doesn't always work on film. Most cases there's a middle ground that can be reach, but that still won't wash with some people. Honestly, if people want 100% comic actuate costume they're probably better off browsing some cosplay websites or going through the many fan films on youtube to get their fix because I'm doubtful Hollywood is gonna start rolling back to bright coloured spandex any time soon.

Bright coloured spandex? Cosplay? Fan films?

No wonder you don't think it will work if that's what you imagine in your head.

[The Question]

What's funny about The Dark Knight's Batman costume being more realistic is that, from a stealth standpoint, deep navy blue actually makes more sense. Black reflects light, blue absorbs it.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by Chris Wallace

And why are those days over? Huh? Because Hollywood ended them, that's why. And audiences went along with it.

So, everybody likes it.

[Chris Wallace]

I agree that it's a case by case basis. I just fear that some costumes may not be given a fair shot before being given the Hollywood revamp treatment.

[The Navigator]

Originally Posted by Chris Wallace

30 years ago, we had absolutely no problem whatsoever going to see a movie whose lead character was dressed head-to-toe in colorful spandex. Fast forward to 1989, we see for the first time a Dark Knight type Batman-one whose battle gear, while based on the garb he sports in the comics-is radically changed. The filmmakers deem his grey tights "silly & unrealistic". And we, the fans, buy into this for the most part. But now so many movies & TV shows are taking such drastic liberties & taking characters' looks further and further away from their pulp counterparts. We, the fans, debate these decisions relentlessly-some of us defend it, others are totally against it. But if not for Batman's black rubber, would we all eagerly run to see the colorfully clad characters without any regard for how "silly" they looked?

I don't think Batman's really hurt anything. Iron Man, Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, Daredevil, Ghost Rider, and almost all of the Batman villains have received pretty faithful renditions of their comics appearances (not to mention in Watchmen we got glowing blue dong, which is "comics faithful" to a completely unnecessary degree).

Plus I think this thread would serve more purpose after the new crop of superhero flicks come out.

[Chris Wallace]

Meanwhile Doom, the X-Men, Batman & countless villains have been drastically overhauled. And the new crop that you refer to is what actually worry me. I fear that someone whose costume is very near & dear to me will get horribly butchered in line with the "Ultimate/TDK/X-Men/Matix" mentality.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by JAK®

Bright coloured spandex? Cosplay? Fan films?

No wonder you don't think it will work if that's what you imagine in your head.

I have no idea what the hell you're saying.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by Chris Wallace

I agree that it's a case by case basis. I just fear that some costumes may not be given a fair shot before being given the Hollywood revamp treatment.

You've gotta look at it from a practical perspective though, comics by their very nature are an exaggeration, it may seem simple on paper, but there are things to consider like movement, like logistics, like comfort, like how it looks on camera, like how to not make it look ridiculous, there's a lot of things to take into consideration which is something a comic doesn't have to do. On top of that you've got the director's interpretation and how he/she sees the character. It's the nature of the medium, these are adaptations after all, not comics brought to life, because that's all they can ever be.

[Eggyman]

Spider-Man was faithful.
Iron Man was faithful.
The Fantastic Four were faithful.
Superman was faithful to an extent, if you get past the colours used.
Watchmen was faithful.
The Phantom was faithful.
Hellboy was faithful.

There'll be more, too. I think, looking at this chunk of films in question, it's quite plain that Batman is responsible for nothing other than delivering good movies.

[jmc]

Very valid point, all those films really keep the spirit of the comic books designs in tact, and most of them work, hell even Nolan's Batman and villains were accurate interpretations, really the only anomaly is X-men.

[JAK®]

Originally Posted by jmc

I have no idea what the hell you're saying.

You're taking the default 'what works in comics doesn't work on film' position, and you tell people with the opposite view that if they want to see what they want they should look at cosplay and fan films to get our 'bright coloured spandex'?

I'm saying that if those things are the only possible result of comic accurate to you... then no wonder you don't think it would work.

[Chris Wallace]

Originally Posted by Eggyman

Spider-Man was faithful.
Iron Man was faithful.
The Fantastic Four were faithful.
Superman was faithful to an extent, if you get past the colours used.
Watchmen was faithful.
The Phantom was faithful.
Hellboy was faithful.

There'll be more, too. I think, looking at this chunk of films in question, it's quite plain that Batman is responsible for nothing other than delivering good movies.

And some bad ones.
And while the examples that you listed are true for the most part, (the radical revamp of Nite-Owl notwithstanding) fans are still to this day up in arms over how the filmmakers dressed Doom, the Green Goblin, the "New Goblin", Elektra (the first time we saw her) and even Venom. And then we look at the extent to which they have now taken Batman. The price for his improved mobility is a suit that looks more mechanical than anything he's ever put on. I'm glad there was no comic adaptation because this thing is an absolute nightmare to draw.
I'd also like to touch on Superman for a minute-particularly the Routh suit; I hate this costume with a passion. The muted color scheme and shrunken symbol, in my eyes, convey a sense of embarrassment. Like they're trying to make him look les noticeable when Superman is supposed to be as ostentacious as they come. What were they going for here? Is this the "new & improved" Superman? And will there be more like this to come?
Again, I agree that it's a case-by-case basis. I sure as HELL wouldn't want to see Ian McKellan's old ass in red tights & purple trunks. I just don't want to come to a point where they start approaching movies the way they did "Wanted"-throw out the costumes & everything else signifying "comic book".

[Kahran Ramsus]

Originally Posted by jmc

Very valid point, all those films really keep the spirit of the comic books designs in tact, and most of them work, hell even Nolan's Batman and villains were accurate interpretations, really the only anomaly is X-men.

And the X-Men had to be modified since they wear some of the most garish and ridiculous costumes in comics.

Now granted there have been mistakes made (such as with both Green Goblins), but some of these costumes do need modifications to work on screen. Some need very minimal or no changes (ex. Spider-Man or Rorshach). It depends on the character and the costume in question.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Eggyman

Spider-Man was faithful.
Iron Man was faithful.
The Fantastic Four were faithful.
Superman was faithful to an extent, if you get past the colours used.
Watchmen was faithful.
The Phantom was faithful.
Hellboy was faithful.

There'll be more, too. I think, looking at this chunk of films in question, it's quite plain that Batman is responsible for nothing other than delivering good movies.

Well said

[The Question]

My feeling about costumes is that they should make sense on the context of the story. Most artists aren't that photorealistic, so in the comics I just tend to imagine that, in a live action version, costumes have design features/are made of materials that make sense but the artist has a hard time replicating. In the movies, that's not a luxury they have.

That's actually why I dislike the movie Spider-Man costume. The costume looks like it was made by a professional costumer out of expensive materials, not an eighteen year old boy with a few yards of red and blue cotton, some opaque goggle lenses, and good sewing skills.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by JAK®

You're taking the default 'what works in comics doesn't work on film' position, and you tell people with the opposite view that if they want to see what they want they should look at cosplay and fan films to get our 'bright coloured spandex'?

I'm saying that if those things are the only possible result of comic accurate to you... then no wonder you don't think it would work.

Ah no, if you read my posts properly you would note I mentioned there is a middle ground in most cases that can be reached, so if anything that's the position I'm taking. And whether you like it or not that statement 'what works on the page doesn't always work on film' is true, I simply said it's probably easier for people to accept this up front because that's the nature of film. Again, one character at a time.

Originally Posted by The Question

My feeling about costumes is that they should make sense on the context of the story. Most artists aren't that photorealistic, so in the comics I just tend to imagine that, in a live action version, costumes have design features/are made of materials that make sense but the artist has a hard time replicating. In the movies, that's not a luxury they have.

Bingo. Not only that, there are time constraints with comic books, things have to be done as quick as possible.

[Chris Wallace]

Hmm-I'll buy that to a certain extent. I tend to think that Wolverine's Astonishing costume was made of leather, due in part to the sheen & the pronounced zipper. But many artists did have it looking like spandex. IDK what Cap's suit is made of, but it ain't spandex. They say all the time that Batman & Co. are wearing nomex layered over kevlar.

[The Navigator]

Originally Posted by Chris Wallace

Meanwhile Doom, the X-Men, Batman & countless villains have been drastically overhauled. And the new crop that you refer to is what actually worry me. I fear that someone whose costume is very near & dear to me will get horribly butchered in line with the "Ultimate/TDK/X-Men/Matix" mentality.

Don't worry, Chris, they'll never make a BP movie.

But seriously, costume alterations were around about a decade before Batman (Jor-El, Lex Luthor, Zod and co.), and blaming Batman for them seems a little silly. To also say that that era of tight-wearing heroes is "over" is a little premature, and needlessly pessimistic.

[Kevin Roegele]

Here is my take on it; superheroes can wear bright coloured costumes on screen. But it has to be established why. There are plenty of people in real life who wear brightly coloured costumes. Sports players, motorbike riders, performers, etc. They do not look silly because there is a context.

Superheroes wear bright costumes to attract attention, to stand out. To let people know they are there. Let's not forget, a lot of the classic superhero style comes from circus performers in leotards. Strongmen and acrobats performing amazing feats (the Amazing Spider-man, the Incredible Hulk).

[Chris Wallace]

Originally Posted by RabbitSamurai

Don't worry, Chris, they'll never make a BP movie.

But seriously, costume alterations were around about a decade before Batman (Jor-El, Lex Luthor, Zod and co.), and blaming Batman for them seems a little silly. To also say that that era of tight-wearing heroes is "over" is a little premature, and needlessly pessimistic.

1-BP wasn't exactly who I was talking about, but seeing what he wore in Ultimate Avengers 2 does have me a little worried.
And it's mainly the heroes' looks that I'm talking about, whereas you're citing villains & supporting characters-from a movie which, I hasten to point out, had no problem showcasing its hero in tights. When you think about it, in the Burton/Schumacher films, the villains' costumes were overall more faithful in terms of design than Batman's.
And I agree that it's premature to dismiss the idea of tights altogether. It's more than likely too late for Batman & probably for the best where the X-Men are concerned, but there's still hope for the heroes yet to come, I think.

[cerealkiller182]

Except for X-Men, has anyone else really taken a page from cinema Batman regarding costumes?

I guess Green Goblin too

[Chris Wallace]

DD, Elektra, Bullseye, Watchmen, Spawn, GG2, Ock, Steel, JSA (on Smallville), Punisher (War Zone)

[The Question]

Originally Posted by Chris Wallace

Hmm-I'll buy that to a certain extent. I tend to think that Wolverine's Astonishing costume was made of leather, due in part to the sheen & the pronounced zipper. But many artists did have it looking like spandex. IDK what Cap's suit is made of, but it ain't spandex. They say all the time that Batman & Co. are wearing nomex layered over kevlar.

I tend to assume that most costumes aren't made of spandex, because spandex is A) Often impractical for the stuff the characters are doing, and B) In the case of characters who make their own costumes, spandex isn't very good for sewing with, unless you have it be so thick that it removes the benefits of spandex. I tend to assume that Spider-Man's costume, for example, is made from inexpensive cotton of decent quality.