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Old 11-08-2010, 11:16 PM   #476
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

I agree. Batman Forever at its core had a good idea for a movie (and there are things I lik about it), but the drive to distance itself from Batman Returns and sell toys took away a lot of its soul. Superman 2 frustrates me a tad more mostly because we had the director and movie almost done, and then just let it slip into mediocrity. While Batman Forever I don't think was in the right hands at any point in production.

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Old 11-08-2010, 11:31 PM   #477
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

It wasn't. Schumacher was a mismatch for the film from the beginning. Even if the studio meddled, there's a load of stupid decisions he made on his own.

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Old 11-08-2010, 11:41 PM   #478
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

You won't see any argument from me there, lol!

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Old 11-08-2010, 11:45 PM   #479
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

Back to Iron-Man 2, I think its true success will eventually be measured with how successful The Avengers will be. If its very good I truly believe that Iron-Man 2 will be seen more positively upon fanboys and visa versa if its bad.

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Old 11-08-2010, 11:50 PM   #480
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

To a certain extent Thor and Cap too... if both fail, then maybe even Iron Man 1 would look like a one hit wonder and get hated on as well.

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Old 11-08-2010, 11:50 PM   #481
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

I don't think IM2 will gain or lose due to Avengers. I think, if anything, IM3 benefits because fans of Avengers will now be on board for IM3, even if they had their issues with IM2. I don't see films made prior to Avengers getting boosts from Avengers. Future films, sure.

With how Thor and Cap look, I think IM2 may be the worst of the Marvel made films once we hit Avengers. Which considering I don't hate IM2 (like I said, 3.5/5) that really isn't bad at all.

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Old 11-09-2010, 07:49 AM   #482
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

IM2 felt like a third act; overcrowded, overblown and underdeveloped. It had great moments but never really lived up to its potential. Had they focued more on it being an Iron Man movie and less on promoting Avengers we could have gotten so much more.

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Old 11-09-2010, 04:08 PM   #483
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

IM3 needs to only focus on Iron Man and Mandarin. No War Machine(in all honesty no WM period) taking up the villains screen time, no Avengers, no setting up Pepper to become Rescue and take away from the villain like they did in part 2, and cut back on the jokes.

IM2 didn't suffer from too many villains, it suffered from too many heroes that didn't belong in the movie.

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Old 11-09-2010, 05:04 PM   #484
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I would agree with this sentiment. But I'd add to that list no Black Widow and maybe even go as far as to say no Fury & as little of SHIELD as possible.

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Old 11-09-2010, 05:17 PM   #485
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

I wouldn't mind Fury, only if it's to recruit Iron Man to take down the Mandarin, like it happened in the comics. (Iron Man/Mandarins first encounter)

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Old 11-09-2010, 05:20 PM   #486
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

I said "maybe". Plus where I once was thrilled about seeing Jackson as Fury it now annoys me to see any aspect of the "Ultimate" line on film.

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Old 11-09-2010, 07:23 PM   #487
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

I see as funny that people have been itching for Nick Fury and War Machine in an Iron Man film and then after one film people don't want either of them anymore.

War Machine's gonna be in IM3, there's no doubt about that.

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Old 11-09-2010, 07:36 PM   #488
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

Iron man 2 lacked a credible and intrigueing villian, Hammer was a walking clown, and Vanko was a very smart thug bascally.Also the plot was to loose and choatic.

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Old 11-09-2010, 07:43 PM   #489
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Iron man 2 lacked a credible and intrigueing villian, Hammer was a walking clown, and Vanko was a very smart thug bascally.Also the plot was to loose and choatic.
I felt like both were missed opportunities. Vanko could have been more, and so could have Hammer. Hammer's opening monologue made him seem like he might be a legitimate threat to Tony. Someone not quite as smart as him, but able to go toe to toe with Tony a bit. But then he just became an incompetent buffoon.

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Old 11-09-2010, 08:29 PM   #490
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

War machine was the weakest link for me

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Old 11-10-2010, 07:24 AM   #491
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

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I see as funny that people have been itching for Nick Fury and War Machine in an Iron Man film and then after one film people don't want either of them anymore.

War Machine's gonna be in IM3, there's no doubt about that.
I never wanted War Machine in any of the movies, I always thought he would take away from Iron Man. I was wrong though, he took away from the villains.

Unfortunately you're right, he'll probably be in the next one.


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Iron man 2 lacked a credible and intrigueing villian, Hammer was a walking clown, and Vanko was a very smart thug bascally.Also the plot was to loose and choatic.
Like I keep saying, replace Vanko with the Mark II/War Machine scenes and he would've been a bigger threat.

The movie should've gone 4 for 4 in badass action sequences, the Monaco fight, Whiplash v.2 kicking drunk Tony's ass at the party, Whiplash v.3 and the Drones vs Iron Man flight sequence and then Whiplash vs Iron Man at the garden.

Instead, after the badass Monaco fight, we get a play fight at the party, a chase sequence and a one minute fight scene with Vanko at the end.

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War machine was the weakest link for me
agreed, he really didn't add anything to the movie.

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Old 11-10-2010, 07:31 AM   #492
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

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I felt like both were missed opportunities. Vanko could have been more, and so could have Hammer. Hammer's opening monologue made him seem like he might be a legitimate threat to Tony. Someone not quite as smart as him, but able to go toe to toe with Tony a bit. But then he just became an incompetent buffoon.
Missed opportunities, yes. Vanko's vendetta against Tony seemed stupid, especially when he KNEW Tony was dying slowly anyway. Hammer became a moron from the moment he freed Danko. At what point did Vanko in any way show a willingness to comply with Hammer's wishes and not pursue his own agenda? This was the worst team-up ever. As for War Machine, another missed opportunity. His introduction wasn't handled well. He wasn't portrayed effectively. Much as I didn't think so initially, Howard was a MUCH better Rhodey than Cheadle. The movie as a whole just felt thrown together. We were promised so much and it just didn't deliver. I tend to think that if Avengers weren't already in the pipeline, we would've gotten the sequel we deserved.

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Old 11-10-2010, 10:19 AM   #493
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

I hated Howard as Rhodey. Cheadle was miles better IMO.

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Old 11-11-2010, 07:17 AM   #494
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

CHeadle's a better actor in general but he didn't bring his A-game to this role, IMO. He wasn't believable to me at all.

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Old 11-11-2010, 08:08 AM   #495
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It's a great subplot, but it was missing Jor-El. Which DONNER FILMED! The Jor-El scenes in that subplot are EPIC! Heart breaking, well acted, and just amazing. But, we never got that in Lester's. Instead, we get cop out cause the Salkinds didn't want to pay Brando and gives us crystals that make no sense

It's really a shame too. The potential to be great is there in Superman 2. But, the Salkinds got greedy and ruined it. Instead, it was mediocre. That REALLY bugs me. Especially when I saw the Donner cut. On one hand, I saw a better film. On the other, I saw an unfinished potentialmasterpiece sequel. We got cheated.
I agree with a lot of what you said.

The Salkinds' greed pissed me right off. They should never have gotten rid of Donner. I can't believe they replaced so much of his stuff with that of a slapstick comedy director.

I still think the performances, the dialogue - both the very human characterizations of Superman and Lois and the over the top comic book moments (like every Zod line haha) won me over in the end. Even with its strange production history, there was such a balance between the human relationship and the comic book storyline going on. I don't think even a bad director can get a mediocre performance out of Chris Reeve in that role (which is the only reason I can watch Superman 3 and 4).

But I do see what you mean by missed opportunities with it, I definitely wonder what it'd be like if Donner completed it. To me, it might not be perfect (you do kind of notice that it's not Donner behind the camera) but the performances and drama just has me. There's been a lot worse missed opportunities out there.

In a world where Batman & Robin came to exist and I can now sit through the whole thing and laugh my ass off, enjoying it for what it is, Superman 2 is nowhere near a negative stamp for me.

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Old 11-11-2010, 08:43 AM   #496
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Back to Iron Man 2...

Rhodey annoyed me a bit in Iron Man 2.

Someone wrote somewhere, it annoyed them that Rhodey was going around telling Tony what to do with his own suits. And I agree with that person, I wish I could remember who it was.

But yeah, the way the two actors played it. Howard's Rhodey felt more like a long-time friend to Tony, they seemed like old pals, they could talk about anything, they could say analytical (some would say offensive) things about each other but without fear of getting into some heated argument. You know, old friends.

Cheadle as Rhodey. That Rhodey seemed a bit more like "Jesus, I can't believe I know this guy.". Like he was forced to act like a friend. That kind of sounds ironic.

I think it was the way Iron Man 2 had War Machine in there sort of killed it a bit for me.

I agree with what's been said above, War Machine = wasted opportunity and of course, a bit of a stupid scene stealer. I went into Iron Man 2 hoping to see more IRON MAN, not bloody War Machine stealing his thunder, trying to be a badass with all his "snazzy weapons".

Hammer, like Infinity9999x said, started off like he was going to be this really credible threat. Once he teamed up with Vanko, he went NUTS. Yelling like a silly maniac. I was expecting Vanko to kill him, himself, at one point.

I think this has been mentioned but I think one of the biggest problems with Iron Man 2 is that Iron Man is hardly in it. Sure, Tony Stark can parade around the media and the crowds all he wants but really, but that's not fancy pants Iron Man doing his "war for world peace' thing, which he claims at the start of IM2 he's already won (courtroom scene).

EDIT:
I retract the above statement I just made about Iron Man not being in Iron Man 2 enough. I had just been defending why I like Superman 2 so much, and Superman is in it for like 3 scenes (talking Clark in the Superman suit doing Superman things). That was hypocritical of me, so I retract that.

Their "absense" was the result of the stories the filmmakers were telling, respectively, so it's fine with me.

I guess I would have liked 1 early action scene with Iron Man still doing his ordinary Iron Man thing before the story really started to affect him - like Superman saving Lois and Paris at the start of Superman 2.


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Old 11-11-2010, 10:58 AM   #497
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

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Back to Iron Man 2...

Rhodey annoyed me a bit in Iron Man 2.

Someone wrote somewhere, it annoyed them that Rhodey was going around telling Tony what to do with his own suits. And I agree with that person, I wish I could remember who it was.

But yeah, the way the two actors played it. Howard's Rhodey felt more like a long-time friend to Tony, they seemed like old pals, they could talk about anything, they could say analytical (some would say offensive) things about each other but without fear of getting into some heated argument. You know, old friends.

Cheadle as Rhodey. That Rhodey seemed a bit more like "Jesus, I can't believe I know this guy.". Like he was forced to act like a friend. That kind of sounds ironic.

I think it was the way Iron Man 2 had War Machine in there sort of killed it a bit for me.

I agree with what's been said above, War Machine = wasted opportunity and of course, a bit of a stupid scene stealer. I went into Iron Man 2 hoping to see more IRON MAN, not bloody War Machine stealing his thunder, trying to be a badass with all his "snazzy weapons".

Hammer, like Infinity9999x said, started off like he was going to be this really credible threat. Once he teamed up with Vanko, he went NUTS. Yelling like a silly maniac. I was expecting Vanko to kill him, himself, at one point.

I think this has been mentioned but I think one of the biggest problems with Iron Man 2 is that Iron Man is hardly in it. Sure, Tony Stark can parade around the media and the crowds all he wants but really, but that's not fancy pants Iron Man doing his "war for world peace' thing, which he claims at the start of IM2 he's already won (courtroom scene).

EDIT:
I retract the above statement I just made about Iron Man not being in Iron Man 2 enough. I had just been defending why I like Superman 2 so much, and Superman is in it for like 3 scenes (talking Clark in the Superman suit doing Superman things). That was hypocritical of me, so I retract that.

Their "absense" was the result of the stories the filmmakers were telling, respectively, so it's fine with me.

I guess I would have liked 1 early action scene with Iron Man still doing his ordinary Iron Man thing before the story really started to affect him - like Superman saving Lois and Paris at the start of Superman 2.
Welcome to the hype Hardknox

I'm gonna defend Rhodey for a second. How would you feel if one man had the most powerful manned weapon of war on the earth? Rhodey may be on Tony's side, but he was worried about Tony having that suit the whole time, as outlined in the congress scenes. Deep inside, Rhodey wants to have the suit turned over to the army, but he's not gonna betray a friend to do it (This is his mentality at the beginning of the film).

As much of a friend Rhodey was to Tony, I don't think Rhodey was ever that comfortable with Stark having such a powerful suit of armor that wasn't handled by military. Stark knows how to handle the suit, of course, but he doesn't have that soldier mentality nor was he ever a soldier. Rhodey doubted that Stark was ever responsible enough to handle the suit.

Rhodey was also worried about the fact that people are other people have been replicating the suit and Vanko's armor reinforced the mentality that people from other countries can recreate the suit (I don't think he really knew about personal stuff between Stark and Vanko).

He really wanted this suit in the army's hands in the hands of someone more responsible. He has known Tony for some time and while Tony can be serious and smart with his decisions, he can also have lapses and has shown to be wildly irresponsible and this indeed worries Rhodey that Tony uses his suit so irresponsibly. He took the suit so the army could defend themselves in case another country actually developed the technology and because Tony looked like mess and growing more and more irresponsible.

There's always gonna be a split between who was better: Rhodey or Howard? Rhodey had every right to a bit more pissed at him in the second film. And I felt they were long time friends with the parts toward the end with Iron Man and War Machine fighting the drones. The banter they had before the end was funny and it felt natural.

So who did I think was better? I liked them both. I honestly didn't see that much of a difference in terms of personality. Howard came off as more of a soldier, but Cheadle looked more like a military officer than a soldier if that makes sense at all.


And about him using the suit. They're friends and Rhodey a pilot so he either:

A) Was taught or shown by Stark how he uses the suit because Stark likes to show off.

or

B) Flying the Iron Man suit probably isn't different as flying a yet save for some differences. Rhodey is a pilot.

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Old 11-11-2010, 04:51 PM   #498
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I agree with a lot of what you said.

The Salkinds' greed pissed me right off. They should never have gotten rid of Donner. I can't believe they replaced so much of his stuff with that of a slapstick comedy director.

I still think the performances, the dialogue - both the very human characterizations of Superman and Lois and the over the top comic book moments (like every Zod line haha) won me over in the end. Even with its strange production history, there was such a balance between the human relationship and the comic book storyline going on. I don't think even a bad director can get a mediocre performance out of Chris Reeve in that role (which is the only reason I can watch Superman 3 and 4).

But I do see what you mean by missed opportunities with it, I definitely wonder what it'd be like if Donner completed it. To me, it might not be perfect (you do kind of notice that it's not Donner behind the camera) but the performances and drama just has me. There's been a lot worse missed opportunities out there.

In a world where Batman & Robin came to exist and I can now sit through the whole thing and laugh my ass off, enjoying it for what it is, Superman 2 is nowhere near a negative stamp for me.
I hate the slapstick elements that got added. Outside the Clark being unable to save Lois when she jumps in scene, the new scenes just feel out of place. I don't think they got a right balance of silly and drama. I think it got too silly. Not to mention, a bunch of scenes that got added just felt off in general, not even in style. The added Kryptonian powers and the new crystal scenes all just feel like part of another universe. Not a continuation of the previous film. It bugs me. I know many may say it is nitpicking, but Jor-El's working outside the council was a MAJOR plot point for the Kryptonian scenes in S:TM and added emotion to it. Then Superman 2 goes ahead and nullifies this, almost making most of what was going on in Krypton pointless. All that matters now is it blew up. There is no connection or emotional center anymore, none that make sense contininuing with S:TM, though.

Batman & Robin I can't take seriously, but what bugs me more about Superman 2 than B&R is I know B&R is bad. There was no way it could have been good. But, Superman 2 actually seemed to try and be something special. It had unmet ambition. For that, I am bothered more by its failures than B&R. Sure, Superman 2 is EASILY a better movie. I won't argue this. But, I don't want to like B&R. I want to love Superman 2. But, I can't.

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Old 11-11-2010, 05:21 PM   #499
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Default Re: Where does Iron Man 2 stand among other superhero sequels?

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Back to Iron Man 2...

Rhodey annoyed me a bit in Iron Man 2.

Someone wrote somewhere, it annoyed them that Rhodey was going around telling Tony what to do with his own suits. And I agree with that person, I wish I could remember who it was.

But yeah, the way the two actors played it. Howard's Rhodey felt more like a long-time friend to Tony, they seemed like old pals, they could talk about anything, they could say analytical (some would say offensive) things about each other but without fear of getting into some heated argument. You know, old friends.

Cheadle as Rhodey. That Rhodey seemed a bit more like "Jesus, I can't believe I know this guy.". Like he was forced to act like a friend. That kind of sounds ironic.

I think it was the way Iron Man 2 had War Machine in there sort of killed it a bit for me.

I agree with what's been said above, War Machine = wasted opportunity and of course, a bit of a stupid scene stealer. I went into Iron Man 2 hoping to see more IRON MAN, not bloody War Machine stealing his thunder, trying to be a badass with all his "snazzy weapons".

Hammer, like Infinity9999x said, started off like he was going to be this really credible threat. Once he teamed up with Vanko, he went NUTS. Yelling like a silly maniac. I was expecting Vanko to kill him, himself, at one point.

I think this has been mentioned but I think one of the biggest problems with Iron Man 2 is that Iron Man is hardly in it. Sure, Tony Stark can parade around the media and the crowds all he wants but really, but that's not fancy pants Iron Man doing his "war for world peace' thing, which he claims at the start of IM2 he's already won (courtroom scene).
This. Hammer became a petty, jealous brat where he started off seeming like a legitimate potential rival. He breaks Vanko out-rather stylishly-and loses all credibility from then on.

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Old 11-11-2010, 10:27 PM   #500
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Welcome to the hype Hardknox

I'm gonna defend Rhodey for a second. How would you feel if one man had the most powerful manned weapon of war on the earth? Rhodey may be on Tony's side, but he was worried about Tony having that suit the whole time, as outlined in the congress scenes. Deep inside, Rhodey wants to have the suit turned over to the army, but he's not gonna betray a friend to do it (This is his mentality at the beginning of the film).

As much of a friend Rhodey was to Tony, I don't think Rhodey was ever that comfortable with Stark having such a powerful suit of armor that wasn't handled by military. Stark knows how to handle the suit, of course, but he doesn't have that soldier mentality nor was he ever a soldier. Rhodey doubted that Stark was ever responsible enough to handle the suit.

Rhodey was also worried about the fact that people are other people have been replicating the suit and Vanko's armor reinforced the mentality that people from other countries can recreate the suit (I don't think he really knew about personal stuff between Stark and Vanko).

He really wanted this suit in the army's hands in the hands of someone more responsible. He has known Tony for some time and while Tony can be serious and smart with his decisions, he can also have lapses and has shown to be wildly irresponsible and this indeed worries Rhodey that Tony uses his suit so irresponsibly. He took the suit so the army could defend themselves in case another country actually developed the technology and because Tony looked like mess and growing more and more irresponsible.

There's always gonna be a split between who was better: Rhodey or Howard? Rhodey had every right to a bit more pissed at him in the second film. And I felt they were long time friends with the parts toward the end with Iron Man and War Machine fighting the drones. The banter they had before the end was funny and it felt natural.

So who did I think was better? I liked them both. I honestly didn't see that much of a difference in terms of personality. Howard came off as more of a soldier, but Cheadle looked more like a military officer than a soldier if that makes sense at all.


And about him using the suit. They're friends and Rhodey a pilot so he either:

A) Was taught or shown by Stark how he uses the suit because Stark likes to show off.

or

B) Flying the Iron Man suit probably isn't different as flying a yet save for some differences. Rhodey is a pilot.
Firstly, thanks for the welcome : )

I think both actors did a good job with the role. I liked them both. I think it was the writing in Iron Man 2 that brought the second Rhodey down a little, for me anyway. In my opinion, Rhodey in the first film felt a little more natural.

I agree with your comments about Rhodey flying the suit. I think it is his experience as a pilot that helped him get a feel for the suit easily enough. Whether Tony had him take it for a test drive between 1 and 2, that would be cool with me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
I hate the slapstick elements that got added. Outside the Clark being unable to save Lois when she jumps in scene, the new scenes just feel out of place. I don't think they got a right balance of silly and drama. I think it got too silly. Not to mention, a bunch of scenes that got added just felt off in general, not even in style. The added Kryptonian powers and the new crystal scenes all just feel like part of another universe. Not a continuation of the previous film. It bugs me. I know many may say it is nitpicking, but Jor-El's working outside the council was a MAJOR plot point for the Kryptonian scenes in S:TM and added emotion to it. Then Superman 2 goes ahead and nullifies this, almost making most of what was going on in Krypton pointless. All that matters now is it blew up. There is no connection or emotional center anymore, none that make sense contininuing with S:TM, though.

Batman & Robin I can't take seriously, but what bugs me more about Superman 2 than B&R is I know B&R is bad. There was no way it could have been good. But, Superman 2 actually seemed to try and be something special. It had unmet ambition. For that, I am bothered more by its failures than B&R. Sure, Superman 2 is EASILY a better movie. I won't argue this. But, I don't want to like B&R. I want to love Superman 2. But, I can't.
I respect your opinion on the matter, as I do everyone's.

For the archive crystals, I see them as library "books" from a giant galactic archive that Jor-El must have stolen and given to Clark for his own learning. And Zod didn't strike me as the kind of man who bothered with these sorts of "archival books", since the council eventually labelled him a criminal. This is all just speculation on my behalf though haha

The sillier slapstick moments involving Clark - if it wasn't for Reeve's performance, they probably would have stuck out for me more. But you can tell when you have those moments that "wouldn't have happened in the first film".

I've talked to a lot of people who don't like Superman II merely because it's "old". And that annoys the hell out of me. So it's good to discuss it with you. You have some genuine points. I think I'm just (admittedly) biased toward the film. I don't want to change your opinion though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Wallace View Post
This. Hammer became a petty, jealous brat where he started off seeming like a legitimate potential rival. He breaks Vanko out-rather stylishly-and loses all credibility from then on.
Right. At first, Hammer was a great addition to the Iron Man film universe. He was another eccentric rich CEO and a direct rival to Tony Stark. The first scenes with him made me think "Wow, I wonder what this guy is going to end up doing to Tony". Then he breaks out Vanko and the rest is just Hammer on crack.

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