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View Poll Results: What do you think | |||
Oh thank god! IM2 was horrible! |
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6 | 5.61% |
WTF MARVEL. Its like X-Men 3 all over again... |
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50 | 46.73% |
Meh, time will tell. |
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51 | 47.66% |
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll |
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#326 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,338
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My guess is that the mass audience didn't really mind about the inclusion of Avengers related material in IM2, but they weren't exactly hyped by the notion either.
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#327 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 733
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I'm not really upset by this news. Iron Man 2 didn't exactly blow me away. It will be nice to see what some new blood can do for the franchise.
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#328 | |
Superhero Psychiatrist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: GammaBase
Posts: 5,134
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Who knows how many people actually intend to see every single Marvel flick. Unless the general public sees them all, how are the SHIELD references even gonna make sense? All you guys on here arguing about how little the SHIELD stuff actually affected these movies, I once again ask, how effective was it then? If it's so minuscule that it hardly takes any screen time, and if we can all agree that most in the general populace could care less about any of it, then why even do it? We, the hardcore fans, are going to see Avengers regardless, so in that sense, they're just preaching to the choir. Presumably, your doing all these tie-ins to appeal to the general public who might not be familiar, but your banking on the fact that number 1, it doesn't just fly over their head and number 2, it works & motivates them to see other movies they might not be interested in. Say what you will, we still don't know the outcome of Thor or Cap, they could potentially fail. And if that happens, by the time Avengers rolls around, there's a good chance that the only people who might be really excited about it wind up being the smallest minority who actually get it, and understand. Namely us...
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"I don't give a **** what you say. If I go out there and miss game winners, and people say, 'Kobe choked, or Kobe is seven for whatever in pressure situations,' Well, **** you. Because I don't play for your ******* approval. I play for my own love and enjoyment of the game. And to win. That's what I play for." - Kobe Bryant "As of right now, I don't know what he do good, cause what may work on another fighter is not gonna work on me." - Floyd Mayweather |
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#329 |
Upstart
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7,424
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You're right, Marvel should stop doing things for the fans. Only then, will the complaining stop.
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#330 |
Superhero Psychiatrist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: GammaBase
Posts: 5,134
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I'm not complaining, just posing a legitimate question.
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"I don't give a **** what you say. If I go out there and miss game winners, and people say, 'Kobe choked, or Kobe is seven for whatever in pressure situations,' Well, **** you. Because I don't play for your ******* approval. I play for my own love and enjoyment of the game. And to win. That's what I play for." - Kobe Bryant "As of right now, I don't know what he do good, cause what may work on another fighter is not gonna work on me." - Floyd Mayweather |
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#331 | |
That's a one-off
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Avengers Facility
Posts: 7,206
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Or have the complainers go in there and show them how it's done. I'm sure they could do a waaaaaay better job.
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#332 | |
Banned User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,920
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Also, they could have had Tony Stark could have figured out his father's clues without Nick Fury's help, but then there'd be no reason to have Nick Fury in the film. They did a poor job introducing Fury and an almost as poor job integrating him into the story, and if you haven't studied up on the mythos, you'll be lost. It was a noticeable flaw in the film but Marvel apparently felt that it was a sacrifice worth making just so that they could better market The Avengers. It ended up being cinematic dead weight, and dead weight can really detract from a movie experience. You can't just bring in Samuel L. Jackson randomly appear and say "oh hai I'm solvin all ur problems riet nau k thx bai." The fans end up unsatisfied and the main audience just goes "WTF." If Marvel's strategy thus far is to just "let go" of people who don't like how they want to do things, I wonder how well that approach will work out when applied to the audience? Last edited by Timstuff; 12-19-2010 at 05:49 PM. |
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#333 |
away for a while
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Down Under
Posts: 31,165
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Jeez come on man, it was always going to be successful coz of film one, but that wasn't an excuse to force things in. And yes I do know people who did complain, they had no idea what the hell what some of the stuff was referring to, given how some of the characters were introduced it's easy to see why. Basic rule of film making - you don't pander to the fan base and assume everyone else knows what the hell you're talking about. Latest Harry Potter suffers from the exact same thing, without prior knowledge of both films and worse the books you could easily get lost in some parts. People make out like this is one big series of sequels, it's anything but, this is several different story lines that somehow have to be made to meet in the middle, but they've gotta work individually first and foremost, if they require knowledge of other movies or knowledge of what's coming up ahead or worse, the comic mythologies, in order to be understood then it's poor film making. Prior knowledge of a character or universe or book should never be a requirement before hand, the films need to work in their own right. If characters and events need to be there, then it's up to the writers to ensure they work with the story and not have the story moved to accommodate them. The problem in what Marvel are doing is that they're trying to make a concept work in a medium that it isn't suited for. It works for TV, hell that's more comparable a medium to comics than what films will ever be. Somewhere along the way things are gonna start getting compromised in trying to link things that aren't relevant to the story at hand. IM2 got a free pass in many respects due to film one's success, what if Thor or Cap have equally tacked on plot devices that distract and bog down the film? Given they don't have the luxury of a successful film one it's hard to see them being given the same leniency.
Last edited by jmc; 12-20-2010 at 04:01 AM. |
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#334 | |
That's a one-off
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Avengers Facility
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Nothing else was forced in this film. And yes whether you like it or not these are being made as a series of films like the Star Wars saga, and the Harry Potter books/movies. I didn't hear this much *****ing and whining when General Grievous just popped into the Episode III and was already the general of the droid army. Good grief, now lets complain about a series of books that turned into a series of movies? If you go into a Harry Potter movie and don't know what's going on because you haven't seen the previous ones, well then that's your own damn fault.
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#335 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,338
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I'm not sure the Potter series is comparable - the only decision there is what to leave out from books to film. In Marvel's case there's much more of a 'making it up as they go along' vibe, for better or worse.
I don't begrudge them building this Avengers world and putting it onto a series of films one after the other... I just don't think it's going to be nearly as successful as they want it to be.
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#336 | |
No Limits
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,187
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"All I really need to know is this: Batman always comes back, bigger and better, shiny and new. Batman never dies. It never ends. It probably never will." |
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#337 |
Fork&SpoonOperator
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Over Macho Grande
Posts: 21,155
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^I've wondered that myself(the context thing). I'll be happy if it turns out well.
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"Spider-man is the Charlie Brown of the Marvel Universe." ~ Kevin Smith |
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#338 | |
That's a one-off
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Avengers Facility
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And they're not making this Avengers world, it's Marvel Movie Universe. They're not just going to stop with the Avengers, they're going to keep going and going.
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#339 | |
away for a while
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Down Under
Posts: 31,165
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#340 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,898
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#341 |
Banned User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,920
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If we go into a Marvel movie, the assumption is not that because it has "Marvel" in the credits, that we are expected to have seen all of the other "Marvel" movies. If the only Marvel property you've seen is the first Iron Man movie, then you should not be expected to have seen anything else if you want the story to make sense. Each superhero is a different franchise, whether Marvel wants to admit it or not. That's not to say Nick Fury couldn't have fit into Iron Man 2, but with the script they used he felt very forced in and they did a really crappy job introducing him. It's just like "hey, who's that guy with the patch eye?" If they wanted to do it properly then the plot of the film should have had a better reason for Tony to meet with the head of shield, and it should not have been just so that Fury could provide Tony with plot devices that Tony could have come up with on his own if the film were more competently written.
Marvel's biggest problem right now is that they are treating all their movies like one big series, instead of treating them as multiple series with Avengers is a team up film. Did any of the people who saw the trailer for Thor this month make the connection that this is in the same world as Iron Man? I highly doubt that. It's a movie about Thor coming to the modern world and doing some stuff, and there will be some fighting. That's as much as the audience understands, and yet Marvel seems to think that all of them are just as well versed in comic book lore as all of us geeks. I think that their faith in the audience to study up on these things is a lot higher than it should be, and as JMC said, if you need outside knowledge of a film in order to enjoy it then that is bad film making. It can't be comared to Harry Potter or Star Wars, because if you start at the beginning with those series it will make sense. With Marvel, they are going to be in trouble if when people go to watch Captain America they realize they needed to watch Thor first, because Thor is a different series, wheter Marvel wants it to be percieved that way or not. |
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#342 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,898
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Plus, I really think they should've left out the temporary cure that SHIELD gave him. |
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#343 | |
Superhero Psychiatrist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: GammaBase
Posts: 5,134
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Listen I love what they're trying to do, and when it comes at the end of the movie like IM or TIH, it's cool. But IM2 is the first instance where they integrated SHIELD members into the central plot. And people can't say that they're just representing SHIELD because 90% of Fury's interest in Stark derives from the Avengers. If they used the regular Nick Fury, that viewpoint makes more sense to me, but the Ultimates Nick Fury has a totally different role within that universe, and conversely, in this movie universe as well.
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"I don't give a **** what you say. If I go out there and miss game winners, and people say, 'Kobe choked, or Kobe is seven for whatever in pressure situations,' Well, **** you. Because I don't play for your ******* approval. I play for my own love and enjoyment of the game. And to win. That's what I play for." - Kobe Bryant "As of right now, I don't know what he do good, cause what may work on another fighter is not gonna work on me." - Floyd Mayweather |
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#344 | |
Bald to the Bone
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,262
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That being said, they could have handled some scenes better. People want to rag on Marvel, but was it Kevin Feige that told Favreau to play The Clash as backround music when Jarvis is telling Tony that he is going to die? Or have a Another One Bites the Dust/It Takes Two/Daft Punk remix while Tony is fighting his best friend? I had no problem with them at all, but it's things like that which undermine serious scenes. Just imagine if they changed the backround music there to a more serious Debney piece.....how much of a change it would have on the scene. The temporary cure thing didn't bother me really. The only thing about it was it practically healed the scars instantly and that was a bit silly. That scene should have been redone without Black Widow though. |
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#345 | |
Bald to the Bone
Join Date: Feb 2010
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#346 | |
That's a one-off
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Avengers Facility
Posts: 7,206
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You're purposely complaining just to complain.
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You are not going to need to see IM 1 & 2 in order to understand Thor and Cap. That's ridiculous, you know that. Do you need to see IM 1 to get part 2? Sure. But that's true with most trilogies out there. For example did people complain in TDK about Harvey Dent just showing up out of the blue and already being the DA?
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#347 | |
That's a one-off
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Avengers Facility
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Damn this movie sure was littered with Avengers references.
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#348 | ||
Banned User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Jersey City, NJ
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It's not about effectiveness (for now). For now its for the fans and (to me) it doesn't take up much screentime. Quote:
![]() Okay, the references weren't the problem with Iron Man 2. I feel as though even if the references wasn't there the script would still be weak. Let's face it, the screenwriting both films were awful and standard. It was the directing and acting that set the first film above. I don't understand what you're talking about anyway with rule one. They did an awful job at introducing the chairacters. They mention Nick Fury by name, nor did they even say Black Widow (Like people are going to remember Romanov). Sam Jackson was always going to be in Iron Man 2, so that was always in the script. I just think the whole idea that IM2 is an Avengers commercial is completely overexaggerated. I feel as though the references doesn't stop the flow of the film, but the middle part of the film did. That wasn't due to the Avengers commercial, but rather just terrible writing and deleted scenes that I feel had nothing to do with the Avengers or references. It was just filler to forward the film that was poorly handled from the beginning. Doesn't stop me from enjoying the film, but I recognize that this film isn't perfect. I just don't think they're going to introduce characters and make heroes cameo in other's films. I think this is just panic right now. I don't think Thor or Captain America will have references to the Avengers. If anything it will have small references. Once again, the problems of Iron Man 2 had nothing to do with the Avengers. They do this for the fans. Who cares if the audiences doesn't get it because it's not like there was a huge reference to the comics that wasn't explained or didn't move the plot forward. I feel as though once the Avengers comes out, good or bad, it will provide a great and entertaining explanation for the films. Plus, if I really had to gamble on it, I'd bet that once all the films are on DVD/Blu-Ray, it will be in a nice box set. And about the last Harry Potter: They did the best they could with it imo: the book is a culmination of the first 6 books. I don't think you can go into the last part of any kind of anthology with the notion that you're fully gonna understand it without watch at least some of the other films. I fully believe that with the Avengers you probably wouldn't have to watch any of the other films to enjoy the film. |
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#349 |
Banned User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,920
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I think part of the problem with Iron Man 2 is that it was not dark enough. It didn't feel like the stakes had been raised enough. Yes, on paper, there was a lot of drama going on, but I rarely felt the impact of it. I never really felt like Tony had hit his all time low, and the movie just plain lacked the emotion of the first one.
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#350 | |
Believer
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: 2300 A.D.
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Life was such a wheel that no
man could stand upon it for long. And it always, at the end, came round to the same place again. |
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