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Old 01-22-2011, 07:56 PM   #126
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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So is there a "Anyone else think that Burton's movies aren't really Batman movies" thread out there somewhere?
Yeah, there are too many fanboys to count who swear that Batman Returns is not a Batman movie but just a silly Burton goth flick masquerading as a Batman movie.

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Old 01-23-2011, 12:11 AM   #127
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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Yeah, there are too many fanboys to count who swear that Batman Returns is not a Batman movie but just a silly Burton goth flick masquerading as a Batman movie.
I always cringe when those so called "fans" claim stuff being completely uninformed, not knowing how much Returns draws from the comics. After all, Kane wasnt there just to look. One major new thing is Penguin being a deformed child killer from the sewers, but hes still a raw fish eating mobster fronting a gang like in the golden age comics, he still uses big cages to trap people like in the golden age comics, he straps bombs to penguins like in the golden age comics, he tries to frame Batman like in the golden age comics and he uses a giant gift box to set a trap in like in Golden age comics. And Catwoman's origins go back to her first from Golden Age when she survives a crash and her repressed inner self comes out, and also the ambiguity about 9 lives is from Golden Age, her talking to other thigs while stretching on the bed, and the romance with batman like in golden age comics , down to the kiss under missile toe in costumes and dance at the ball without them. And Batman harks back to the original Detective Comics dark portrayal, also sending notes with bat logo like in golden age comics. And trust me, theres plenty, plenty more. Burton's BOTH Batman movies were very reverential to the Golden Age comics, to the roots

And again, theres no such thing as "real" Batman movie

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Old 01-23-2011, 05:10 PM   #128
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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I always cringe when those so called "fans" claim stuff being completely uninformed, not knowing how much Returns draws from the comics. After all, Kane wasnt there just to look. One major new thing is Penguin being a deformed child killer from the sewers, but hes still a raw fish eating mobster fronting a gang like in the golden age comics, he still uses big cages to trap people like in the golden age comics, he straps bombs to penguins like in the golden age comics, he tries to frame Batman like in the golden age comics and he uses a giant gift box to set a trap in like in Golden age comics. And Catwoman's origins go back to her first from Golden Age when she survives a crash and her repressed inner self comes out, and also the ambiguity about 9 lives is from Golden Age, her talking to other thigs while stretching on the bed, and the romance with batman like in golden age comics , down to the kiss under missile toe in costumes and dance at the ball without them. And Batman harks back to the original Detective Comics dark portrayal, also sending notes with bat logo like in golden age comics. And trust me, theres plenty, plenty more. Burton's BOTH Batman movies were very reverential to the Golden Age comics, to the roots

And again, theres no such thing as "real" Batman movie
I think what it boils down to is that those weren't the versions of the characters the majority of fans had grown to love by the time "Returns" was made, which is why I think some fans are annoyed by it.

Imagine Magneto had been just a mean one dimensional bad guy in the X-Men films like he was in the 60s comics as opposed to the charismatic well intentioned extremist anti-hero that he developed into over the years. Yeah, he started off a generic bad guy, but 'generic bad guy Magneto' is not the Magneto most fans know and love.

Just my two cents.

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Old 01-23-2011, 05:43 PM   #129
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

Perhaps. But heres the thing - saying its not a Batman but Burton movie with batman in it is still completely invalid, and those characters were also well defined even back then. After all, they were shaped up and given their core and iconic characteristics in the Golden Age. And then again, its a bit of a headscratcher that someone wouldnt care if the characters are good and interesting but would only care if they match the blueprint and checklist of the comic book

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Old 01-23-2011, 10:26 PM   #130
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

They're Batman films.

The only thing that perterbs me is when I'm faced with people who consider Nolan's work the end all, be all final authority on Batman...which isn't true.

There are still some things I personally feel Burton and Schumacher...yes, Schumacher...did better.

Before a bunch of you gang up on me I'll squelch the fires and say that it has nothing to do with characterization or plot...

I just think, personally, that Schumacher's visual depiction of Arkham Asylum was better...at least in "Forever" before he when over the top and put it on an impossibly high mountain top in "B&R."

But his Arkham, to me, looked more like 'Arkham' than the one in "Begins" did.

At the end of the day, there's really no right or wrong way to interpret Batman. What Nolan's done clearly works for today...but who's to say that's the kind of Batman that'll work forty or fifty years from now?

In Nolan I'm Impressed...but In Batman I Trust.

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Old 01-24-2011, 05:21 AM   #131
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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I think what it boils down to is that those weren't the versions of the characters the majority of fans had grown to love by the time "Returns" was made, which is why I think some fans are annoyed by it.

Imagine Magneto had been just a mean one dimensional bad guy in the X-Men films like he was in the 60s comics as opposed to the charismatic well intentioned extremist anti-hero that he developed into over the years. Yeah, he started off a generic bad guy, but 'generic bad guy Magneto' is not the Magneto most fans know and love.

Just my two cents.
In Penguin's case it's the opposite since the comics' version doesn't have that much to offer to start with.



In other news, Nolan's movies have felt comepletely like Batman films.

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Old 01-24-2011, 05:51 AM   #132
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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They're Batman films.

The only thing that perterbs me is when I'm faced with people who consider Nolan's work the end all, be all final authority on Batman...which isn't true.

There are still some things I personally feel Burton and Schumacher...yes, Schumacher...did better.

Before a bunch of you gang up on me I'll squelch the fires and say that it has nothing to do with characterization or plot...

I just think, personally, that Schumacher's visual depiction of Arkham Asylum was better...at least in "Forever" before he when over the top and put it on an impossibly high mountain top in "B&R."

But his Arkham, to me, looked more like 'Arkham' than the one in "Begins" did.

At the end of the day, there's really no right or wrong way to interpret Batman. What Nolan's done clearly works for today...but who's to say that's the kind of Batman that'll work forty or fifty years from now?

In Nolan I'm Impressed...but In Batman I Trust.
Good call on Arkham. As much as I dislike almost everything that Schumacher did with the character and the world, Arkham is one of very few things that I can call great.


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Old 02-11-2011, 04:18 PM   #133
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

Burtons Batman has some very cool scenes even if it is very dated now i like how it sticks to the basics even if its not perfect

Nolans movies are great but sadly too long with too much unnecessary drama they feel more like 24 the movie with all the stuff happening at the same time

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Old 02-12-2011, 01:55 PM   #134
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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sure nolan has the same things the older ones had, a cool car, a rubber suit, villians with makeup, but they really lack something, especially TDK. the atmosphere and the execution and look of the characters and world just doesnt strike me as batman. its too common/average looking. besides the narrows in BB, gotham city looks like any old city. sure, in the comics they tend to look i guess somewhat modernized but even then the city always looks darker, grimmer, lots of statues and gargoyles, somewhat, well, gothic looking. the tumbler is, well...not a batmobile, or a sorry excuse for one. the villians were rather plain and boring looking, especiallt scarecrow, and they are almost never given enough screentime, save for the joker in TDK but thats because hes the joker. but scarecrow and ras al guhl were almost non existant through most of BB. the realism for me just killed the series, and i just wanted to know if anyone felt like this as well.

i guess im just not a fan of nolan. hes all big now cuz of TDK but really he hasnt done anything that i would watch. tim burton on the other hand....is more my style. and no im not a goth kid, the complete opposite actually. but his batman films were just more batman, from gotham, to the batmobile/batsuit, to the music, the atmosphere, the character representations. hell i even liked batman forever better. the new films also lost the fun of the original films. what happened exactly? now they have to make everything realistic. i dont get it. i hate batman and robin because it prompted the studio to go in not a 180, but a total 360 from what the films used to be. just saddens me.
The realism of Batman is what I personally like about the character. Hes an avenger without superpowers: just technology, intelligence, strength, and a motive. Thats really why i dont like movies such as Superman or Spider-Man because sure they are great people, but without their powers, they cant do squat. Batman is a character who denies all of those and finds a way to fight the villains of Gotham with intelligence and skill. I believe that villains like Joker, Scarecrow, Ra's Al Ghul, Killer Croc, Bane, Catwoman, Riddler, and so on COULD exist in that type of society due to the fact that they work away around the police without super powers just like Batman. And thats one of the reasons why sometimes they are an equal match to him. Now characters like Poison Ivy and Mr. Freeze i dont see in that type of world. But the majority of the characters in the Batman universe are set-up to show that these great feats could actually happen in a city like Gotham.

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Old 02-15-2011, 05:45 PM   #135
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

TDK, is not a Batman film. I can't understand how fans of the CHARACTER can call that a Batman film. Even Frank Miller said Batman was hardly in it, as I recall. When he did show up, the suit was wrong, the voice was wrong and he talked too much.

As a film, it tries too hard without really doing the groundwork needed to develop characters.

It's praise is something that still puzzles me to this day.

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Old 02-15-2011, 05:53 PM   #136
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Burtons Batman has some very cool scenes even if it is very dated now i like how it sticks to the basics even if its not perfect

Nolans movies are great but sadly too long with too much unnecessary drama they feel more like 24 the movie with all the stuff happening at the same time
In TDK, i was lost because I kept trying to remember what Dent was up to, where Maroni popped up from, what Joker's plan was, what batman was trying to do, too much at the same time without a proper explanation for one section

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Old 02-15-2011, 05:55 PM   #137
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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They're Batman films.

The only thing that perterbs me is when I'm faced with people who consider Nolan's work the end all, be all final authority on Batman...which isn't true.

There are still some things I personally feel Burton and Schumacher...yes, Schumacher...did better.

Before a bunch of you gang up on me I'll squelch the fires and say that it has nothing to do with characterization or plot...

I just think, personally, that Schumacher's visual depiction of Arkham Asylum was better...at least in "Forever" before he when over the top and put it on an impossibly high mountain top in "B&R."

But his Arkham, to me, looked more like 'Arkham' than the one in "Begins" did.

At the end of the day, there's really no right or wrong way to interpret Batman. What Nolan's done clearly works for today...but who's to say that's the kind of Batman that'll work forty or fifty years from now?

In Nolan I'm Impressed...but In Batman I Trust.
That has to be the best line I have ever heard.

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Old 02-15-2011, 07:00 PM   #138
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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TDK, is not a Batman film. I can't understand how fans of the CHARACTER can call that a Batman film.
Because it is a Batman movie. Not hard to understand really. It's the best Batman movie to date, IMO.

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Even Frank Miller said Batman was hardly in it, as I recall.
Frank Miller, the director of The Spirit? Oh my, his opinion on good comic book movies really is something to be held in high esteem Tim Burton thinks Batman 1989 is boring, and he was the director of the movie. Does that mean it is?

Batman has the same amount of screen time in it as he did in Batman Begins, and that's not counting the Bruce Wayne scenes. That is a fact.

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When he did show up, the suit was wrong, the voice was wrong and he talked too much.
WHAT? He talked the same amount as he did in Begins. As much as BTAS Batman did.

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As a film, it tries too hard without really doing the groundwork needed to develop characters.
Disagree. Every character is well fleshed out. It's a brilliant piece of film making: http://www.slashfilm.com/assessing-t...e-dark-knight/

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It's praise is something that still puzzles me to this day.
Your loss, dude. There's people who don't understand the greatness of movies like The Godfather or the Shawshank Redemption either. But we don't hold it against them

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Old 02-16-2011, 06:00 AM   #139
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Stop right there. You dare to compare the film to Godfather and Shawshank? Fans of this movie need to really relax.

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Old 07-19-2011, 12:54 PM   #140
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If you are going by the orginal comic books with Batman popping up here & there. Bruce fighting to maintain a since of sanity trying to decide if he should contiune as Batman or not. Then I'd say that Nolan has done a 4 star job.

He really not only knows and understand the Batman charater but also the villians.

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Old 07-26-2011, 01:29 AM   #141
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now first of all i want to say i loved this movie easily the best batman movie...
but i did feel that this didn't seem like a real batman movie. I had been thinking this for a while and the to see a thread sowing me i wasn't alone was reassuring. Now i heard a lot people saying "if just take away this, and this, and this, then its just another kind of movie." like iron man 2 (take away iron man, sex appeal, and action and its boring) but that's taking away a lot about the movie. If you take away just the batsuit joker makeup and outfit, the names and maybe keep harvey disfigured in another way(not half of his face) then you've got virtually nothing to do with batman. I think in order to keep this a batman movie Nolan should have introduced more batman themed ideas(joker gas, two-face dealing in more with duality, cameos by other villains(clayface movie poster in background, graffiti artists writing question marks on walls, iceberg lounge being in anyway mentioned) just to give the feeling this world these characters live in is the world of batman.

I strongly felt this may have been a script nolan and his brother had in mind for a while and had nothing to do with batman. They remembered it while coming up with ideas for a bb sequel and said "hey this could be hell of a batman movie", reworked the script a bit and voila The Dark Knight.

Now with me saying this i still think this is a friggen awesome movie and i liked every part of it, but it just seemed like a batman elseworld incarnation.

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Old 07-26-2011, 05:21 PM   #142
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

Elseworld. Now I tihnk thats a spot on term for it. Elseworld series was kind of a "what if Batman.." type of stories, like what if Batman lived in medieval times, what if this or that. And Nolan's movies are very much like that, since theyre telling a story of "what if Batman was a real life character and lived in real world"

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Old 07-27-2011, 09:01 AM   #143
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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sure nolan has the same things the older ones had, a cool car, a rubber suit, villians with makeup, but they really lack something, especially TDK. the atmosphere and the execution and look of the characters and world just doesnt strike me as batman. its too common/average looking. besides the narrows in BB, gotham city looks like any old city. sure, in the comics they tend to look i guess somewhat modernized but even then the city always looks darker, grimmer, lots of statues and gargoyles, somewhat, well, gothic looking. the tumbler is, well...not a batmobile, or a sorry excuse for one. the villians were rather plain and boring looking, especiallt scarecrow, and they are almost never given enough screentime, save for the joker in TDK but thats because hes the joker. but scarecrow and ras al guhl were almost non existant through most of BB. the realism for me just killed the series, and i just wanted to know if anyone felt like this as well.

i guess im just not a fan of nolan. hes all big now cuz of TDK but really he hasnt done anything that i would watch. tim burton on the other hand....is more my style. and no im not a goth kid, the complete opposite actually. but his batman films were just more batman, from gotham, to the batmobile/batsuit, to the music, the atmosphere, the character representations. hell i even liked batman forever better. the new films also lost the fun of the original films. what happened exactly? now they have to make everything realistic. i dont get it. i hate batman and robin because it prompted the studio to go in not a 180, but a total 360 from what the films used to be. just saddens me.
the only thing i can agree about is that in TDK gotham looks to normal.

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Old 07-27-2011, 09:37 AM   #144
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i want in,

here goes
I like em all... even B&R (thats right!)
i'll justify that when i get there... The best for me, the one i can watch over and over and appreciate it more each time the 89. It's just so rediculously good, it made me like prince (yup) The scene in the fluggelhiem is awesome... he killed everybody there, save one chick, whom he picked out and has been stalking for some time. AND THEN dances across all the corpses and right up to her for a romantic candlelight sit down. HE's a psycho! it made the movie! ummm, he's the best joker period (take that fanboys)
bats was scary, and shadowy and intimidating (which must be difficult when your 5'10)
"I want you to tell all your friends about me" c'mon now, don't hate : that IS the batman

second though is begins, cuz it had to be done... how does some guy with a lot of money turnhim self in the the scariest shadow in the evening? nolan did a good job at fleshing that out in a believable way. And the escallation thing, it worked out pretty well... Ra's is a little too human - i mean you cant kill the head of the demon he always comes back (i hope he "magically survived" the derailment for rises) ... but the scarecrow was a good angle to start with, although not comics accurate (dr. death?) a good jumping off point since he's just a guy in a mask. plus the development of all the bat gizmo's = awesome! I can watch this one again anytime i want, with out getting bored or embarrased.

them theres one of the greatest xmass movies of all time (yup that's the one i make my fam watch everyyear) returns. It's gruesome, on a biblical type level (all the firstborn sons... ) and there's a little of eachkind of evil in the world. there's the greed of schreck, who is no where in the comics but still welcome in batland. he will screw everyone in the city to fatten his wallet, and if not for bruce he would have caused irreparable harm. theres the semi-justified extreemism of catwoman, who is stuck on revenge but displaced the notion onto one man... then the whole city, then back to one man... she's crazy coconuts, which makes you identify with her in a way... wierd right? and oswald needed a back story... he didn't realy have one, and it was delivered here... the false hero, who when discovered turns out to be more horrifying than you thought possible... he's still frightening today.... and those are deep characters. plus! there's still some comicbook fun

and batman forever, is underrated. TLJ did awesome as harvey/2face. IT's incredible how he switches between the 2 in frame infront of others and makes it seem organic. From murderous to sane and even sort of penentant like a pendulum. he did well. Mopey selfabsorbed batman, i could take or leave. robin could be better and I CAN NOT STAND jim carey in this... he's ace ventura in a leotard and it brought down the whole movie. I think with out his effect on the cast durring production, we would have a much better movie today... i could watch it again, but only with out telling anyone, and deff fast forwarding through a good portion.

66': Adam West is brucewayne, after he accepts his past and starts to have fun again. the joker in this movie makes me laugh still, tthe penguin submarine is a good gag, and the movie is fun as a whole. I do wish it was kitt as catwoman, but all in all it's a killer movie.

then theres a tie at the bottom, they both took the idea started in the preceding film and tookit too far... to the point where i'm ashamed to watch them. they have their good points, but not enough to justify the rest of the movies. B&R was exaclty what it pretended to be, and it didn't fail at being a batman movie. (i am ready to tell people why) and the darkknight was almost what it was marketed as, but drifted into unusual territory. not bad, but not quite batman. I really think the death is all that made people think it was so great. (btw: the parnassus's imaginarium - it will spook you bad if you're paying attention, and it ledgers real final appearance)

these last too are generally poor excuses for batman films, but if watched for what they actually are, they're good.

i can't wait to get somefeed back / interwebs combat about this,
lets' be civil eh?

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Old 07-27-2011, 10:37 AM   #145
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@imposserus,i can accept your opinion.B&R never was men't too be a serious Batman movie and TDK was.

that's indeed the diffrence between them,but B&R was just bad in my eyes because it's a boring movie.The scene where Bane and Ivy become villians is the most boring scene in movie history i think.

much things in TDK are negative gotham city (where is it?)
no bats,no batcave.

and the blue color tone is anoying.

the brown/orange color tone in BB is great,it's excactly the tone a batman movie has to have.

i hope TDKR will have more that kind of tones or that black/white tone.

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Old 07-27-2011, 11:58 AM   #146
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[QUOTE=BatFan88;21018925
the brown/orange color tone in BB is great,it's excactly the tone a batman movie has to have.

i hope TDKR will have more that kind of tones or that black/white tone.[/QUOTE]

i did like the almost sepia thing they did in most of it, but it was best in the promoshots....

and ivy and bane turning was only boring cuz we all knew what was going to happen, and it was a predictable as a bond villian speach. i though pam and that crazy looking doctor were entertaining in the lead up better after she's evil suddenly.

sometimes it's nice to know whats coming

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Old 08-01-2011, 01:20 PM   #147
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Yeah, there are too many fanboys to count who swear that Batman Returns is not a Batman movie but just a silly Burton goth flick masquerading as a Batman movie.
I tend to agree with them.
I do feel that Begins had more of a "Batman" feel to it than TDK.

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Old 08-02-2011, 10:30 AM   #148
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There was no shadowy Batman stuff in Returns.
not true. he hid on top of that train and used his shadow to scare the driver before picking him up. he did alot of that kind of thing in both burton films. if your gonna hate the films, at least try to think of a good critisism.

and i have said this many times, Returns is defiently a batman movie. it is not "silly" at all. sure the humour is there, but you need humour in such a dark film. Returns simply took some creative licences with the characters (as if nolan didnt) and in this case it worked amazingly. i cannot now imagine catwoman beyond what pfieffer did with the role. same with the penguin. they were so dark and original, loved it. but nolans versions of the villians were just *YAAAWN*. could have been so much better, the potential was there.

i also prefer the original 4 films. as silly as schumachers films may be, i can watch Forever a num,ber of times. i find that movie so entertaining and cool and val kilmer wasnt half bad as batman! i also liked the batmobile and jim carrey alot. batman and robin might have been the 60's silly version of batman, but the movie was defiently batman all the way. nolans movies do not come off like batman movies, they seem more like an average crime thriller with batman in it.


Last edited by theman; 08-02-2011 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:42 AM   #149
theman
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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Originally Posted by GothamAlleys View Post
I take the comic book's explanation of an explosive tip bullet

even as a kid i knew the gun shot some kinda explosive. its pretty obvious. why is this still a topic of conversation?

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Old 08-10-2011, 07:03 PM   #150
Swan
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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Originally Posted by theman View Post
not true. he hid on top of that train and used his shadow to scare the driver before picking him up. he did alot of that kind of thing in both burton films. if your gonna hate the films, at least try to think of a good critisism.

and i have said this many times, Returns is defiently a batman movie. it is not "silly" at all. sure the humour is there, but you need humour in such a dark film. Returns simply took some creative licences with the characters (as if nolan didnt) and in this case it worked amazingly. i cannot now imagine catwoman beyond what pfieffer did with the role. same with the penguin. they were so dark and original, loved it. but nolans versions of the villians were just *YAAAWN*. could have been so much better, the potential was there.

i also prefer the original 4 films. as silly as schumachers films may be, i can watch Forever a num,ber of times. i find that movie so entertaining and cool and val kilmer wasnt half bad as batman! i also liked the batmobile and jim carrey alot. batman and robin might have been the 60's silly version of batman, but the movie was defiently batman all the way. nolans movies do not come off like batman movies, they seem more like an average crime thriller with batman in it.
DK was still a batman movie ok,you lost in this thread.bye

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