Ratner's take on X3 a few years later.

[lancimouspitt]

I highly agree it's a hard look to emulate but to me,a character like that has to be all or nothing in a movie. I would have loved to seen Singer attempt Juggernaut. i can't remember where,but he said once the helmet itself would have to be a character in a simular relation to how Cerebro was. I feel that what we got was more of a version of Magneto's helmet on steriods.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by lancimouspitt

I highly agree it's a hard look to emulate but to me,a character like that has to be all or nothing in a movie. I would have loved to seen Singer attempt Juggernaut. i can't remember where,but he said once the helmet itself would have to be a character in a simular relation to how Cerebro was. I feel that what we got was more of a version of Magneto's helmet on steriods.

I personally liked Juggernaut's look from the X-Men Movie CCG, if anyone remembers what it looks like...

...actually I would say the overall design is similar but the helmet's are different......I do agree with the helmet on steroids, the CCG version IIRC, of Juggernaut had I believe the forehead and top of the head exposed, I'll try to find a pic if I can...

[lancimouspitt]

The original X3 design for Juggernaut would have been 1 million times better than what we ended up with.

http://www.destructoid.com/juggernau...2-141710.phtml

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^That was much better than what we got, I still cant believe they didnt have a fight scene between Juggernaut and Collosus.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

^That was much better than what we got, I still cant believe they didnt have a fight scene between Juggernaut and Collosus.

You think that would have been an obvious one right?

[lancimouspitt]

yeah jug and colussus would have been THE fight to showcase for the film but of course it didn't happen. I can somewhat see why the placed him against Kitty becomes of the huge differences between the two but I still feel that the two big guys not fighting was such a huge letdown. I think back to the bar fight in Uncanny X men between the two and what could have been for the movie..............

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by Hellion

You think that would have been an obvious one right?

Originally Posted by lancimouspitt

yeah jug and colussus would have been THE fight to showcase for the film but of course it didn't happen. I can somewhat see why the placed him against Kitty becomes of the huge differences between the two but I still feel that the two big guys not fighting was such a huge letdown. I think back to the bar fight in Uncanny X men between the two and what could have been for the movie..............

Exactly, its such an obvious thing that i'm still shocked it wasnt in the movie, hell, why not have them fight as Juggs is charging into the building to get Leech, let them have a fight then have the Kitty scene, film-makers get paid millions but still miss stuff like this how?

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

Exactly, its such an obvious thing that i'm still shocked it wasnt in the movie, hell, why not have them fight as Juggs is charging into the building to get Leech, let them have a fight then have the Kitty scene, film-makers get paid millions but still miss stuff like this how?

Time...money... etc, I'm sure those were the reasons.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by lancimouspitt

The original X3 design for Juggernaut would have been 1 million times better than what we ended up with.

They changed it because people on here didn't like it. Go figure!

[JP]

Hahahahaha, sure.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by JP

Hahahahaha, sure.

Amusing but true. I found an interview in a magazine that says they changed the look of Juggernaut because the fans didn't like it.

[Kingslayer]

I used to defend Ratner's version of the movie, but after reading this interview, no more. Especially after rewatching the trilogy and seeing just how much was screwed up. Sure, much of it can be blamed on Fox or Singer/Vaughn leaving, but Ratner was still a bad choice. And he just strikes me as a complete douchebag about reading his thoughts now.

[Alexei Belyakov]

Originally Posted by Kingslayer

I used to defend Ratner's version of the movie, but after reading this interview, no more. Especially after rewatching the trilogy and seeing just how much was screwed up. Sure, much of it can be blamed on Fox or Singer/Vaughn leaving, but Ratner was still a bad choice. And he just strikes me as a complete douchebag about reading his thoughts now.

Can you really blame the guy for sounding a little bitter towards the fans? They've been ripping him a new one for 5 years straight. I doubt you would be any friendlier.

[Kingslayer]

Originally Posted by Alexei Belyakov

Can you really blame the guy for sounding a little bitter towards the fans? They've been ripping him a new one for 5 years straight. I doubt you would be any friendlier.

Yeah, I can't blame him for being bitter, but he deserves much of the blame nonetheless. It's not like this film is a simple blip on his directing career. Essentially everything he's churned out has been pretty bad (although I personally think Red Dragon is fine). I understand that circumstances for the film were far from ideal, but I think he would be more accepting of that instead of just strictly saying he wouldn't change a thing.

However, that all being said, now that I reflect more upon it, I think a lot of the fault lies with Penn and Kinberg, because the script was likely subpar to begin with. And matters just got worse when they lied to fans about various things. The whole thing was just a troubled production from the moment Singer jumped ship.

[Alexei Belyakov]

Originally Posted by Kingslayer

Yeah, I can't blame him for being bitter, but he deserves much of the blame nonetheless. It's not like this film is a simple blip on his directing career. Essentially everything he's churned out has been pretty bad (although I personally think Red Dragon is fine).

I'm with you on Red Dragon being decent (though its crap compared to Manhunter) and I liked The Family Man. But yeah, he's not impressive.

Originally Posted by Kingslayer

However, that all being said, now that I reflect more upon it, I think a lot of the fault lies with Penn and Kinberg, because the script was likely subpar to begin with. And matters just got worse when they lied to fans about various things. The whole thing was just a troubled production from the moment Singer jumped ship.

See, for me the film works. I liked what they did with the story and I didn't mind the lack of character development for the supporting cast because I didn't care about the supporting cast. My only real problem with the film was the pace/running time. It moved too quickly but still [surprisingly] managed to deliver some pretty intense/emotional moments - and I credit that to the fact that we already had an existing relationship with these characters.

I think people seem to think Ratner set out to change everything Singer established but I see it the other way around. I think he basically tried his best to do "a Bryan Singer film" with less time, more characters and very high expectations from an already displeased fanbase (since Singer left).

Personally, I think alot of the fans went in to X3 ready to bash it. I say that because the second time I saw it I went with some friends that avidly read comics and they were badmouthing it on the way to the theatre.

For me the emotional intensity made the film work. And John Powell's score

[JP]

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

Amusing but true. I found an interview in a magazine that says they changed the look of Juggernaut because the fans didn't like it.

So basically, they made an awful decision and are blaming fans instead of themselves? Classy.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Alexei Belyakov

Can you really blame the guy for sounding a little bitter towards the fans? They've been ripping him a new one for 5 years straight. I doubt you would be any friendlier.

He's probably better off standing by his work. It's not as though he gets a do-over. Even if in another few years he admits everything he did sucked and killing Cyclops was an awful idea ultimately X-Men: The Last Stand will still stand as the movie he decided to make. Usually when a movie flops in a CB franchise I notice directors set up the circular firing squad and blame others for all those things that fans were repulsed by. In the end though these people never listened when it counted. Cyclops' punk'd death was known about prior to filming, and the fan outcry was ignored then, which would make any apology for that or anything else pretty inconsequential. At least Ratner's being honest and saying he didn't care then, and doesn't care now. Schumacher's been apologizing for years now, and no one wants him ten feet in front of a comic book store.

[Kingslayer]

Originally Posted by Alexei Belyakov

I'm with you on Red Dragon being decent (though its crap compared to Manhunter) and I liked The Family Man. But yeah, he's not impressive.

Well, you can't really top Michael Mann! I haven't seen The Family Man, so I'm just basing my opinion off the awful Rush Hour series.

See, for me the film works. I liked what they did with the story and I didn't mind the lack of character development for the supporting cast because I didn't care about the supporting cast. My only real problem with the film was the pace/running time. It moved too quickly but still [surprisingly] managed to deliver some pretty intense/emotional moments - and I credit that to the fact that we already had an existing relationship with these characters.

I think people seem to think Ratner set out to change everything Singer established but I see it the other way around. I think he basically tried his best to do "a Bryan Singer film" with less time, more characters and very high expectations from an already displeased fanbase (since Singer left).

Personally, I think alot of the fans went in to X3 ready to bash it. I say that because the second time I saw it I went with some friends that avidly read comics and they were badmouthing it on the way to the theatre.

For me the emotional intensity made the film work. And John Powell's score

I really liked the characterization that Singer brought to the first two films. It made it that much of a better movie for me. I think that was my main problem with X3, aside from having way too many unnecessary subplots. All the characters just felt shoehorned into bit roles, and those that should have been developed were just completely shafted. Cyclops? Dead! Xavier? Dead! Phoenix? Zombie! Honestly, I think a lot of this lies with the bad writing, so I can't completely fault Ratner for that. But at the same time, I feel like he was just a yes man that went along with everything. And maybe even needlessly added more characters, if the "more the merrier" comment is too be taken too seriously.

I know most fanboys are rabid, so that likely was the general consensus that it would be bad going in. I recall liking the film when I saw it, but as I've watched it more times, it just doesn't stand up, especially when stacked alongside Singer's first two films. It just feels like a complete letdown as part of this epic trilogy. The Phoenix plot should have been the focal point of the film instead of sharing time with "the Cure" plot that just doesn't fit. Many of the characterizations stemming from that plot are just bad too. The whole project feels like someone else's vision of the end, which is just disappointing, because I feel like Singer was really the one that needed to conclude everything.

It's still much better than Wolverine by all means, it's just a disappointment to me because of the potential it had set up by the end of X2. Just a missed opportunity, really.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by JP

So basically, they made an awful decision and are blaming fans instead of themselves? Classy.

You're making it into a no-win situation. If they listen to fans, that's wrong; if they don't listen, then no doubt that's wrong too.

At the end of the day, Juggernaut looked fine. The more comic-accurate look in the film was generally fine, as was the darker, edgier version in the earlier designs. The look wasn't the problem with the character!

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

He's probably better off standing by his work. It's not as though he gets a do-over. Even if in another few years he admits everything he did sucked and killing Cyclops was an awful idea ultimately X-Men: The Last Stand will still stand as the movie he decided to make. Usually when a movie flops in a CB franchise I notice directors set up the circular firing squad and blame others for all those things that fans were repulsed by. In the end though these people never listened when it counted. Cyclops' punk'd death was known about prior to filming, and the fan outcry was ignored then, which would make any apology for that or anything else pretty inconsequential. At least Ratner's being honest and saying he didn't care then, and doesn't care now. Schumacher's been apologizing for years now, and no one wants him ten feet in front of a comic book store.

I'm not surprised a major Hollywood figure doesn't admit mistakes, or believe they made any in the first place. Few filmmakers will say they think they got it wrong. Schumacher's a rare exception.

Of course Ratner's going to stand his ground, and dig his heels in, when constantly prodded about the movie. He's fairly egotistical anyway. And the tone of the questions doesn't help either; they're always bitter and accusatory rather than polite or enquiring what was intended in a specific scene etc.

Yes, he made a few misjudgements on the film. And so did a lot of other people involved.

[lancimouspitt]

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

You're making it into a no-win situation. If they listen to fans, that's wrong; if they don't listen, then no doubt that's wrong too.

At the end of the day, Juggernaut looked fine. The more comic-accurate look in the film was generally fine, as was the darker, edgier version in the earlier designs. The look wasn't the problem with the character!

To each his own but for me the look was bad. When I first saw the picture I thought "that's a pretty bad ass looking avalanche or something."..

I'll go as far to say for me Jug was the biggest dissapointment in the X films (well,maybe not but it's up their). For what it's worth though if that's the biggest complaint I have for the day i'm doing good.

[lancimouspitt]

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

They changed it because people on here didn't like it. Go figure!

I would love to see a copy of that. The thing is this, had I just seen that picture alone I would have been skeptical myself and made nitpicks mentioning how the helmet was wrong,etc,etc,etc. Especialy if it was put next to a picture of the comic counterpart. What I would like to know is did they put the original prototype next to the picture of the second design we ended up with in the movie and ask for feedback? If that where the case I can't see many fans opting for the second design. It could very well be a case of hearing a group of fans being critical and then just decidining where going to complain anyway,then going with something easier to apply to the actual film. Maybe i'm wrong, but it never hurts to be skeptical .

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by lancimouspitt

What I would like to know is did they put the original prototype next to the picture of the second design we ended up with in the movie and ask for feedback?

No, they didn't do that. That would never happen with any movie. They didn't 'ask' for feedback but when the first designs leaked out, reaction on forums such as this showed that most people didn't like them.

[ALittlePush]

Originally Posted by Kingslayer

I really liked the characterization that Singer brought to the first two films. It made it that much of a better movie for me. I think that was my main problem with X3, aside from having way too many unnecessary subplots. All the characters just felt shoehorned into bit roles, and those that should have been developed were just completely shafted. Cyclops? Dead! Xavier? Dead! Phoenix? Zombie! Honestly, I think a lot of this lies with the bad writing, so I can't completely fault Ratner for that. But at the same time, I feel like he was just a yes man that went along with everything. And maybe even needlessly added more characters, if the "more the merrier" comment is too be taken too seriously.

I know most fanboys are rabid, so that likely was the general consensus that it would be bad going in. I recall liking the film when I saw it, but as I've watched it more times, it just doesn't stand up, especially when stacked alongside Singer's first two films. It just feels like a complete letdown as part of this epic trilogy. The Phoenix plot should have been the focal point of the film instead of sharing time with "the Cure" plot that just doesn't fit. Many of the characterizations stemming from that plot are just bad too. The whole project feels like someone else's vision of the end, which is just disappointing, because I feel like Singer was really the one that needed to conclude everything.

It's still much better than Wolverine by all means, it's just a disappointment to me because of the potential it had set up by the end of X2. Just a missed opportunity, really.

I think the main problem with X3 is the runtime. They had two potentially great stories that would have created good character focussed plotlines, but instead they squeezed both stories in to a short time without giving either story the justice it deserves. The emotional aspect of the film just wasn't there for me, it literally felt like: next scene, next scene, he's dead, next scene, next scene, he's dead too, next scene, etc.

There could have been some brilliant moments had the film not felt rushed. Cyclops' death, had it not just been swept under the carpet, could have been a real emotional moment, showing how out of control Jean Grey had become. It's the same with Rogue and the cure, it was the perfect opportunity to show how simply being able to touch another person without hurting them would affect her entire life. Instead, they boiled it down to she took the cure because she didn't like Iceman getting touchy-feely with Kitty.

Had they given the two storylines the time they deserved, we would have ended up with a much better movie.

[Kingslayer]

Originally Posted by ALittlePush

I think the main problem with X3 is the runtime. They had two potentially great stories that would have created good character focussed plotlines, but instead they squeezed both stories in to a short time without giving either story the justice it deserves. The emotional aspect of the film just wasn't there for me, it literally felt like: next scene, next scene, he's dead, next scene, next scene, he's dead too, next scene, etc.

There could have been some brilliant moments had the film not felt rushed. Cyclops' death, had it not just been swept under the carpet, could have been a real emotional moment, showing how out of control Jean Grey had become. It's the same with Rogue and the cure, it was the perfect opportunity to show how simply being able to touch another person without hurting them would affect her entire life. Instead, they boiled it down to she took the cure because she didn't like Iceman getting touchy-feely with Kitty.

Had they given the two storylines the time they deserved, we would have ended up with a much better movie.

I agree in that both plotlines are fine, but "The Cure" just feels out of place as part of the conclusion to the trilogy. Like I said earlier, Phoenix demanded the full attention of the film, and rightfully so, because it's both a huge and phenomenal story arc that was just utterly wasted. "The Cure" needed to be saved for a potential future film, if it was going to be used at all.

And yes, in all fairness, a 2.5 hour runtime may have solved quite a bit of the problems that exist, but I still think what I said above is more ideal to finish the trilogy. More time certainly would have helped make those plot details work much better in context, but I still think they're both piss poor characterizations. Cyclops should not die so easily. I get that Wolverine is the so-called main character of the movie, but Cyclops should be a huge part of the Phoenix saga, even with the love triangle Singer developed right off the bat. Also, Rogue taking the cure is such a cop out. It's the antithesis to the entire story arc that Singer built around her being able to accept her powers.

A much better movie? Yes.

What it should have been with Singer's continued development? Hell no.