Superman's power level

[DarthAlani]

Superman should be able to do the following:

- Be faster than light
- Be able to lift Thousands of Tons with ease
- Not require food, water, air or rest
- Only be vunerable to kryptonite

[Kal-El.9859]

And magic

[DarthAlani]

Keep magic out of the film

[raybia]

Originally Posted by WildcatNC

He has to be powerful enough to still be Superman while not being so powerful that there is no believable threat to him.

I've never liked the version that can do ANYTHING. Flying around tugging planets along is bad writing to me. I didn't like the whole lifting a continent thing either.

I always have a hard time giving a crap about characters that are essentially unbeatable.

You could tone down the ridiculous stuff and still have a bad*** Superman that is a top tier superhero. I would rather see the natural implications of his powers in smaller ways.

Sounds pretty good.

First of all, Superman should be more powerful than any other Superhero on film to date.

He should not have the ability to time travel. Thats cheating.

His power capacity should be unknown as the older he gets and longer he is naturally exposed to the sun his powers slowly but surely continue to increase.

He should go up against a villian that is as or even more powerful than him.

However powerful he is, he should have to exert himself.

Snyder should check out S: TAS for tips.

Oh, and for a really cool scene, Superman should find out he doesn't need air only after running out of it while in Space.

[Kurosawa]

Superman was VASTLY underpowered in S:TAS and if he is restricted to those levels, he will look extremely inferior not only to the version in the Reeve movies, but to Thor as well. S:TAS is a prime example of the old saying: "Never trust Batman guys with Superman."

[raybia]

Originally Posted by Kurosawa

Superman was VASTLY underpowered in S:TAS and if he is restricted to those levels, he will look extremely inferior not only to the version in the Reeve movies, but to Thor as well. S:TAS is a prime example of the old saying: "Never trust Batman guys with Superman."

Really? Give me some examples. I definitely don't think Superman should be as powerful as he was Pre-Crisis. I do like the idea though that his limits are unknown, even to him and that he is really constantly getting more and more powerful.

[The Sage]

Originally Posted by raybia

Sounds pretty good.

First of all, Superman should be more powerful than any other Superhero on film to date.

He should not have the ability to time travel. Thats cheating.

His power capacity should be unknown as the older he gets and longer he is naturally exposed to the sun his powers slowly but surely continue to increase.

He should go up against a villian that is as or even more powerful than him.

However powerful he is, he should have to exert himself.

Snyder should check out S: TAS for tips.

Oh, and for a really cool scene, Superman should find out he doesn't need air only after running out of it while in Space.

The hightlighted part is something that should be remembered. And why S:TAS? Superman in that show was pretty de-powered. I'd recommend the second season of the Justice League and the Justice League Unlimited for examples on how powerful Superman should be.

For instance...

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

[Kal-El.9859]

Originally Posted by DarthAlani

Keep magic out of the film

I didn't say I wanted it in the film just stating he should be vulnerable to magic

[Kurosawa]

Originally Posted by raybia

Really? Give me some examples. I definitely don't think Superman should be as powerful as he was Pre-Crisis. I do like the idea though that his limits are unknown, even to him and that he is really constantly getting more and more powerful.

S:TAS was Byrne-level and could not compete with Marvel heavyweights. Thor or Hulk would destroy that character. Thor especially.

Now who knows how powerful movie Thor will be-although he has to be at least a match for the movie Hulk.

People who understand and can write him correctly know that his power level is not an issue to making the character interesting. When people say they feel Superman is too powerful to write interesting stories with, they are actually making excuses for their own failures to handle the character. Superman could move planets but he couldn't change what is inside the hearts of men like Luthor or stop the evil heartless androids like Brainiac with just power alone. Superman's world is about morality and decisions. This is what makes him so interesting-that he is a moral, altruistic man in an ever more selfish and cruel world.

[KRIM]

Originally Posted by Kurosawa

S:TAS was Byrne-level and could not compete with Marvel heavyweights. Thor or Hulk would destroy that character. Thor especially.

Now who knows how powerful movie Thor will be-although he has to be at least a match for the movie Hulk.

Considering they are in two completely different universes and will never be matched up, I don't see the difference. Why bother getting sidetracked with unrelated properties? The focus should always be on the character. Whatever adjustments are made should be dictated by the direction for the series.

People who understand and can write him correctly know that his power level is not an issue to making the character interesting. When people say they feel Superman is too powerful to write interesting stories with, they are actually making excuses for their own failures to handle the character. Superman could move planets but he couldn't change what is inside the hearts of men like Luthor or stop the evil heartless androids like Brainiac with just power alone. Superman's world is about morality and decisions. This is what makes him so interesting-that he is a moral, altruistic man in an ever more selfish and cruel world.

That's all well and good but that does not address the issue of physical dispute, which inevitably has to be dealt with. A Superman that can easily move planets has limited foes, plain and simple. You've immediately ignored practically every single one of his main villains. As much as you'd like to believe the opposite, there is such a thing as overabundance of power. If it is not required to handle the majority of the threats he faces, it is absolutely useless. This is not to suggest he should be underpowered. But it should be sufficiently balanced across the range of abilities his adversaries possess. There is no drama and excitement with a battle that is one-sided and easily finished.

[Kurosawa]

Originally Posted by KRIM

Considering they are in two completely different universes and will never be matched up, I don't see the difference. Why bother getting sidetracked with unrelated properties? The focus should always be on the character. Whatever adjustments are made should be dictated by the direction for the series.


That's all well and good but that does not address the issue of physical dispute, which inevitably has to be dealt with. A Superman that can easily move planets has limited foes, plain and simple. You've immediately ignored practically every single one of his main villains. As much as you'd like to believe the opposite, there is such a thing as overabundance of power. If it is not required to handle the majority of the threats he faces, it is absolutely useless. This is not to suggest he should be underpowered. But it should be sufficiently balanced across the range of abilities his adversaries possess. There is no drama and excitement with a battle that is one-sided and easily finished.

His classic power level never seemed to be a problem for writers like Jerry Siegel, Otto Binder, Elliot S! Maggin, Cary Bates, or Alan Moore to handle. The idea that a supremely powerful Superman cannot be challenged is a Post-Crisis canard. Superman was constantly challenged on any number of levels when he was at his most powerful. Only poor writers with a lack of imagination past that of the mindless slugfest have issues dealing with him.

Watering Superman down so as to make him more easily handled by bad writers is not a good way to approach the character.

Elliot S! Maggin explains it best:

Originally Posted by Elliot S! Maggin

Julie’s best writer, and the one he most trusted, was Denny O’Neil, who wrote Superman stories for about a year and hated them. He just abhorred the experience. Well he’s just so powerful, Denny kept whining. He did whine, honest. He was in his early thirties then and going through a heavy whining period. He’s stopped since. But he just couldn’t figure out what he wanted to do with Superman. In the course of not figuring this out, by the way, he wrote some of the best Superman stories we’d seen in years - the Sandman series. But his approach was simply to reduce Superman’s powers and see if he could deal better with him that way. It simply didn’t work. The point of Superman is that he’s virtually omnipotent and has mishigass anyway. That’s what Carlin never understood about the character, as it happens. His conflict is rarely over not having enough power. It’s over dilemmas. This is a character who, rather than growing less powerful as he ages, only grows more so. That was one of the aspects that attracted me to Mark Waid’s notion of how to develop him for Kingdom Come. His growing conflict is not over power, but over right and wrong. I was surprised Denny couldn’t deal with that at the time; he was so adept at dealing with the same questions with Batman. But Denny didn’t want to deal with Superman.

[KRIM]

This isn't a question of competence. You are literally setting up the impossible. Most of Superman's most interesting and cinematic villains are not nearly on the level of challenging someone who can move entire planets. That's like pitting a lion against an ant. There's nothing to work with.

I have to ask what is your inherent issue with a Superman that is still very powerful, but not to the realm of cosmic.

[SatEL]

Originally Posted by raybia

Sounds pretty good.

First of all, Superman should be more powerful than any other Superhero on film to date.

He should not have the ability to time travel. Thats cheating.

His power capacity should be unknown as the older he gets and longer he is naturally exposed to the sun his powers slowly but surely continue to increase.

He should go up against a villian that is as or even more powerful than him.

However powerful he is, he should have to exert himself.

Snyder should check out S: TAS for tips.

Oh, and for a really cool scene, Superman should find out he doesn't need air only after running out of it while in Space.

When it comes to Superman powerlevel no one should ever have to check out S:TAS, that was just ridiculous as to just how weak he was. *Shudders* at the idea at Superman needing a space suit to breath in space.............no thank you.

[SatEL]

Originally Posted by The Sage

The hightlighted part is something that should be remembered. And why S:TAS? Superman in that show was pretty de-powered. I'd recommend the second season of the Justice League and the Justice League Unlimited for examples on how powerful Superman should be.

For instance...

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Even JL animated Superman was to weak that's why they threw in that scene with Darkseid at the end because fans complained about the way Superman was treated on the show. In fairness all the heroes where a **** load weaker than their comic counterpart. If people want to use an animated Superman as a references to strength the death of Superman movie is a good example of a kick ass Superman in animated form.

[Lead Cenobite]

Originally Posted by SatEL

When it comes to Superman powerlevel no one should ever have to check out S:TAS, that was just ridiculous as to just how weak he was. *Shudders* at the idea at Superman needing a space suit to breath in space.............no thank you.

I agree, and he struggled too much to lift anything heavier than a car. He just barely saved the plane in the pilot movie. He didn't stop it from crashing, just made the crash less catastrophic really.

[The Sage]

Originally Posted by SatEL

Even JL animated Superman was to weak that's why they threw in that scene with Darkseid at the end because fans complained about the way Superman was treated on the show. In fairness all the heroes where a **** load weaker than their comic counterpart. If people want to use an animated Superman as a references to strength the death of Superman movie is a good example of a kick ass Superman in animated form.

Superman in JL showcased his strength well, particularly in his bouts with Darkseid, Captain Marvel, Captain Atom, Mongul. I wouldn't mind him being stronger, but he was a great deal stronger than he was in S:TAS.

[Superman Prime]

Originally Posted by The Sage

Superman in JL showcased his strength well, particularly in his bouts with Darkseid, Captain America, Captain Atom, Mongul. I wouldn't mind him being stronger, but he was a great deal stronger than he was in S:TAS.

You mean Captain Marvel.

[TruerToTheCore]

Originally Posted by KRIM

This isn't a question of competence. You are literally setting up the impossible. Most of Superman's most interesting and cinematic villains are not nearly on the level of challenging someone who can move entire planets. That's like pitting a lion against an ant. There's nothing to work with.

Lex Luthor, Brainiac or Mongul (here's some irony for you: Pre-Crisis Mongul was STRONGER than Superman, Post-Crisis they had about the same power) are not capable of challenging Superman?

[The Sage]

Originally Posted by Superman Prime

You mean Captain Marvel.

Thank you.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by DarthAlani

Superman should be able to do the following:

- Be faster than light
- Be able to lift Thousands of Tons with ease
- Not require food, water, air or rest
- Only be vunerable to kryptonite

^ No.

[KRIM]

Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore

Lex Luthor, Brainiac or Mongul (here's some irony for you: Pre-Crisis Mongul was STRONGER than Superman, Post-Crisis they had about the same power) are not capable of challenging Superman?

Please read. I said 'most' not 'none'. Again, I'll ask what is the fascination with being so powerful as to move planets?

[Pumpkin_Bomb]

Honestly, the power I've always felt should be downplayed with Superman is his speed. When it's combined with his other powers, it really makes him seem too untouchable, like not even his super-powerful rogues should stand a chance. IMO, there never should have been any question as to whether or not he's faster than the Flash, since speed is the Flash's whole shtick. That's one thing I've liked about how he's portrayed in the animated series' and movies.

Obviously though, he doesn't need to be strong enough to move planets either, but I'm fine with him having extremely high-level strength, as long as it doesn't mean he never faces anyone or thing that can actually threaten him.

[elgaz]

Almost forgot I posted this thread lol.

Some very interesting replies and it's given me food for thought

Personally speaking, I'd like to see the following:

Superstrength - Strong enough to lift a mountain. Anything heavier is possible, but just like a human straining with heavier things, it will take a lot of effort. Superman himself may not even be aware of what his upper limit is. I think moving planets is a bit on the hard to believe side.

Superspeed - I'd like this Superman to be able to move at almost the speed of light, but not surpass it. He can't totally defy physics. He can be in Metropolis one minute, and China the next if needed, but no ability to travel FTL and thus turn back time.

Heat Vision - Again, Superman himself may not be aware of how strong his heat vision can be as he's never had to use it that strongly. He is basically one huge solar battery, so in effect his heat vision may be as hot as the sun itself if he focuses enough. On a 'normal' day, certainly strong enough to burn through most earth metals.

Invulnerability - Like most incarnations of Superman, his skin should be totally impervious to knives/bullets. Rockets aren't a problem, neither are fire or bombs. A very strong bomb - atomic/nuclear - may knock him unconscious and wound him, but not kill him. As for surviving in space, I agree that he should be able to do it for days if he can hold his breath, but not indefinitely - he would need air at some point.

Healing Power - something that's not really focused on a lot with Superman, as most people associate healing power + superhero with Wolverine. But Superman has a very advanced physiology, and thanks to the way his body absorbs solar radiation from our sun, he heals much faster than we do. I'd like to see cuts and the like healing within 20-30 secs depending on his energy levels.

Super Breath - Like heat vision, he shouldn't even be aware of his upper limits. He can easily blow out fires and the like, and freeze anything up to the size of a small house, but I wouldn't like it taken to ridiculous levels - like freezing an entire ocean.

All in all, I'd like his powers to be amazing and better than other superheroes on film. And I'd like to see Snyder explore this Superman who doesn't actually know how strong he is, how fast he can go, or what can kill him - because he's never been tested enough before.

As for the argument that Superman's super speed effectively renders him unbeatable (he can basically overcome any villain in the blink of an eye if need be), that is a good point. I think the only way to get round that is for Superman's superspeed to be limited by 2 important factors :

His surroundings - someone travelling at superspeed can cause a lot of damage to their surroundings - be it by generating a sonic boom, affecting the air pressure, having buildings/cars being damaged by the shockwaves of their movements. Remember Neo flying through the city to save Trinity in the Matrix sequel, and the cars flying into the air behind him? That's what Superman has to contend with in built up areas. So he has to limit himself greatly in order not to destroy human habitats (or humans!)

Concentration - To superspeed and use his other powers simultaneously takes a great deal of concentration, so again Superman's speed may be limited greatly when also trying to engage someone using heat vision or superstrength.

With regards to Kryponite .............. personally, I'm sick of it and it's an overused plot device. But I concede that there must be something out there which poses a threat to Superman, he can't be totally unbeatable. However I hope we don't see it used on a frequent basis (if at all) in the next film ....... there should be very little kryponite on earth, certainly not the amount that seems to exist in the Smallville universe.

[Kurosawa]

Conversely, what is the fascination for weakening Superman to a point where he is not substantially more powerful than characters like Thor or the Hulk? Or Green Lantern for that matter? An electric power cable pulled up from the street should not hurt Superman. Superman should not have to wear a mask to fly in space. He should be able to break the time barrier. Good writers can handle his power level, bad writers cannot. Why accept incompetence?

[KRIM]

Do you typically answer questions with more questions?