Superman's power level

[elgaz]

Originally Posted by Kurosawa

Conversely, what is the fascination for weakening Superman to a point where he is not substantially more powerful than characters like Thor or the Hulk? Or Green Lantern for that matter? An electric power cable pulled up from the street should not hurt Superman. Superman should not have to wear a mask to fly in space. He should be able to break the time barrier. Good writers can handle his power level, bad writers cannot. Why accept incompetence?

I agree on the most part about the electric cable and going into space, but I don't think Superman should be able to break the time barrier. Superman is physically very powerful, but he doesn't have any kind of mind-over-matter powers or the ability to manipulate time (despite what the '78 movie would have you believe).

[Kurosawa]

Originally Posted by KRIM

Do you typically answer questions with more questions?

Not typically. Usually I refer to the books, shows and movies themselves, and I point out that when Superman flourished was when he was more impressive and more along the lines of how Siegel saw him.

Originally Posted by elgaz

I agree on the most part about the electric cable and going into space, but I don't think Superman should be able to break the time barrier. Superman is physically very powerful, but he doesn't have any kind of mind-over-matter powers or the ability to manipulate time (despite what the '78 movie would have you believe).

I think he should be able to time-travel but not be able to change the past. The 1978 movie had very few similarities to the comics of the time, and a huge rule in the Superman comics was that the past could not be changed-and Superman had tried to do so more than once. If the past was changed at all then that formed an alternate reality, and the regular timeline stayed as it was.

[WildcatNC]

Originally Posted by Kurosawa

Conversely, what is the fascination for weakening Superman to a point where he is not substantially more powerful than characters like Thor or the Hulk? Or Green Lantern for that matter? An electric power cable pulled up from the street should not hurt Superman. Superman should not have to wear a mask to fly in space. He should be able to break the time barrier. Good writers can handle his power level, bad writers cannot. Why accept incompetence?

I don't like him "substantially" more powerful than Thor or Hulk because they are ridiculous as it is too. Though it was a great story in itself, I didn't like the whole WW Hulk, "I can beat EVERYONE" stuff either. I also don't like the upper end Thor stuff, like the "GodBlast".

Its all a poor decision IMO.

Its not about "powering down" Superman to me, its about ignoring bad writing decisions.

I think some are motivated by a fanboy one-upsmanship. They want their favorite character to be "better" than any other. My hero can beat up your hero kind of stuff, which shouldn't really play into what works for the character and connecting with the audience in a new movie.

[WildcatNC]

No time travel for me either. No faster than light travel.


A Superman that can tug planets along in space and move faster than the speed of light is unbeatable. Even rudimentary physics knowledge would tell you it would be impossible to defeat him. To a certain point you still need to keep the suspension of disbelief.

Many are also acting like "weaknesses" are a bad thing. Its GOOD for characters to have flaws and weaknesses. It makes them more relatable and it drives internal conflicts and personal storylines.

Are we really talking about him NOT being able to travel faster than light, time travel or tug planets as "gimping" him? Seriously?

I'm also glad they gave him the magic vulnerability. He needed something besides a rare alien mineral that was extremely uncommon. I would rather them use his sun dependence too.

I am still advocating he be frickin powerful as all hell, and in the top tier of all heroes. He still would be, even with everything i've mentioned.

[Pumpkin_Bomb]

^ Word.

[BH/HHH]

Originally Posted by WildcatNC

No time travel for me either. No faster than light travel.


A Superman that can tug planets along in space and move faster than the speed of light is unbeatable. Even rudimentary physics knowledge would tell you it would be impossible to defeat him. To a certain point you still need to keep the suspension of disbelief.

Many are also acting like "weaknesses" are a bad thing. Its GOOD for characters to have flaws and weaknesses. It makes them more relatable and it drives internal conflicts and personal storylines.

Are we really talking about him NOT being able to travel faster than light, time travel or tug planets as "gimping" him? Seriously?

I'm also glad they gave him the magic vulnerability. He needed something besides a rare alien mineral that was extremely uncommon. I would rather them use his sun dependence too.

I am still advocating he be frickin powerful as all hell, and in the top tier of all heroes. He still would be, even with everything i've mentioned.

good post I certainly dont want a Superman that could move a planet

[Superman Prime]

If Superman does move a planet, these things need to be happening:

1. He needs to be giving it his all. Asserting himself to his maximum.

2. A giant crater needs to slowly form around him as he's doing it.

3. Fire needs to ignite the edges of the earth's atmosphere.

4. People need to be screaming, running, and taking cover like the apocalypse is upon them.

[DorkyFresh]

if anything moves Earth it would destroy most of, if not all, mankind....Superman wouldn't dare interfere with Earth's rotations.

[Superman Prime]

Originally Posted by DorkyFresh

if anything moves Earth it would destroy most of, if not all, mankind....Superman wouldn't dare interfere with Earth's rotations.

Science can be stretched and the audience can suspend disbelief, especially if you have the things listed above.

I do want Superman to only do something like that if it is his only possible option, and he recognizes the dangers. Doubt we'll ever see a situation like that in the movies anyway.

[The Sage]

I can see Superman having the strength to move a planet if he were to really charge his body with a lot of yellow solar energy in an extreme situation.

[DarthAlani]

Yeah, The S:TAS/JLU Superman was far to weak

[Rev]

I was pretty comfortable with the powerlevels displayed in Superman Returns portrayed by Brandon Routh. I don't personally see him slowing down the plane as him being weak and struggling with it per se. I thought it was done well to show the forces acting upon the plane and him being cautious in not stopping it abruptly so as to minimize serious injuries. The island lifting would be more believable without kryptonite present but what was done was done and I can't change that. I too like to see him really exert himself especially if he is doing something monumental like that but not while lifting a car. The only planet Superman should be able to move without too much effort should be the Daily Planet Globe. Mountain moving power should be sufficient to accomplish anything he would face on earth. Outside of earth may be another matter.

[Kurosawa]

The other thing that was nerfed with the 1986 reboot was Superman's intellect, as he went from being a genius who usually used his brain to win to being a mindless dope who relied completely on his powers. The loss of his super-intelligence and total recall hurt as much as the other power cuts.

[WildcatNC]

I guess a better question to ask some of you would be, what shouldn't Superman be able to do?

Should he be able to fly around and disperse the solar system from the suns orbit? Fly so fast his mass becomes infinite thereby turning himself into the ultimate black hole, destroying the known universe?

I'm not really sensing some of you think there should be ANY parameters to his power really.

A good writer would use the abilities he has to their fullest potential rather than jack them up to godlike levels.

I think many are underestimating the implications of his powers, even at their lower end. He would still be nigh unstoppable even if he can't quite lift a mountain or time travel.

[The Batman]

Originally Posted by KRIM

What's so hard to understand?

Oh! You again....

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_Bomb

People didn't complain because they felt he shouldn't be able to lift something that size, they complained because he was lifting a mountain of his only weakness.

Red Sun radiation would like a word with you. Even so, it just sounds like another useless fanboy complaint. Superman lifted NK which was littered with kryptonite. Not to mention he dropped back to earth and ended up in a coma afterwards, so its not like it was a piece of cake.

Originally Posted by WildcatNC

I like Marvel and DC and Thor is on par with Superman. They are "roughly" equivalent.

You like marvel and dc...great. No one said it was that kind of debate. I used hulk and thor cause they're the only movie heroes who're in supes power range, not cause they're marvel.

[The Batman]

Originally Posted by Kurosawa

People who understand and can write him correctly know that his power level is not an issue to making the character interesting. When people say they feel Superman is too powerful to write interesting stories with, they are actually making excuses for their own failures to handle the character. Superman could move planets but he couldn't change what is inside the hearts of men like Luthor or stop the evil heartless androids like Brainiac with just power alone. Superman's world is about morality and decisions. This is what makes him so interesting-that he is a moral, altruistic man in an ever more selfish and cruel world.

Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore

Lex Luthor, Brainiac or Mongul (here's some irony for you: Pre-Crisis Mongul was STRONGER than Superman, Post-Crisis they had about the same power) are not capable of challenging Superman?

You two show on a consistent basis that you understand Superman better than 98% of the people on the SHH! message boards.

[kedrell]

This should be early post crisis all the way. A nuke will kill him. He cannot move planets or even land masses. For the love of God, he cannot breath or talk in space. And he damn sure can't go lightspeed.

Even with those limitations he's still extremely powerful. His top flying speed should be something around Mach 10(which would still allow him to get anywhere on Earth within a couple of hours); he can still bench press a couple of skyscrapers like the empire state building; and nothing short of a field artillery canon to the groin is able to cause him pain(though still not able to really cause any more harm to him than an ordinary person getting shot by a pistol whilst wearing a bulletproof vest). High voltages of current can pain him but not do much more than that(and I'm talking at least a million volts to even begin to cause him pain).

I think all that would suit a movie Superman well. And I'd keep all his extra powers(X-ray/heat vision, freeze breath, etc.) intact too.

[Kal-El Fan]

Able to withstand the vacuum of space w/out a suit (if we decide that he needs to breathe, he'd need an air supply)
Almost as fast as light (flying) / faster than sound (running)
Lifting mountains, etc
Super intellect
Able to withstand all Earthly weapons, elements and radiation (he'd brush off the dust from a Nuclear explosion) in fact....
Can fly near and into the Sun
Stronger than any other Kryptonian, simply because he grew up on Earth and that has affected his physiology
Able to hear Lois' heartbeat from the other side of the planet (as in a comic story from the past few years)
Able to see just about every part of the electromagnetic spectrum
Even under the light of a red star, he has his Golden Age power set as that comes from his molecular structure, not the effects of solar radiation

[Kurosawa]

Originally Posted by The Batman

You two show on a consistent basis that you understand Superman better than 98% of the people on the SHH! message boards.

Unfortunately.

The DC propaganda machine from the 80's was very effective. The bad thing is all they did was repeat Stan's criticisms of Superman, criticisms that Byrne took to heart when he nerfed the character in 1986.

It's amazing how differently one can look at things when they actually do some research instead of repeating Mike Carlin talking points.

[The Batman]

Originally Posted by Kurosawa

Unfortunately.

The DC propaganda machine from the 80's was very effective. The bad thing is all they did was repeat Stan's criticisms of Superman, criticisms that Byrne took to heart when he nerfed the character in 1986.

It's amazing how differently one can look at things when they actually do some research instead of repeating Mike Carlin talking points.

I didnt even grow up on pre crisis supes...but when i took the time to read some stories, it was amazing how superior pre crisis supes was to post crisis. and its not about how many freaking planets he can move or how suave he acts as clark kent.

[WildcatNC]

Originally Posted by The Batman

You like marvel and dc...great. No one said it was that kind of debate. I used hulk and thor cause they're the only movie heroes who're in supes power range, not cause they're marvel.

I know you weren't mentioning them just because they were Marvel. I mentioned that to stop any of the Marvel/DC nerd fight crap before it started, regarding my comment.

Half the time when i've mentioned anyone being in Supermans league you get accused of being a Marvel homer.

Had nothing to do with you, just general internet fanboys.

[Kurosawa]

Originally Posted by The Batman

I didnt even grow up on pre crisis supes...but when i took the time to read some stories, it was amazing how superior pre crisis supes was to post crisis. and its not about how many freaking planets he can move or how suave he acts as clark kent.

That's the thing, though...although you didn't grow up with that character, you actually had the interest to learn about him. Same way with me and the Silver/Golden Age versions of Superman.

[Pumpkin_Bomb]

Originally Posted by The Batman

Red Sun radiation would like a word with you. Even so, it just sounds like another useless fanboy complaint. Superman lifted NK which was littered with kryptonite. Not to mention he dropped back to earth and ended up in a coma afterwards, so its not like it was a piece of cake.

Yeah, I know about red sun radiation, and magic for that matter, but in terms of the films, kryptonite was his only established weakness, and if you pulled any average Joe in off the street and asked them about Superman's weaknesses, kryptonite would probably be the only answer they could give.

As for it being a "fanboy complaint," I'm pretty far removed from being a Superman fanboy. I complain about it because it just seemed like they painted themselves into a corner, and then took an easy way out. They put Supes in this scenario, where he'd been stabbed with K, and was on this island made of it, and thought "how is he going to get out of this one?" It just seems to me that "**** it, he just lifts that **** anyway" is kind of a blah solution.

[Kurosawa]

Not a huge fan of Kryptonite use. There's better ways to challenge Superman.

[The Batman]

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_Bomb

It just seems to me that "**** it, he just lifts that **** anyway" .

....and passes out due to the kryptonite, falls to earth so hard he causes a crater, and ends up in a coma.

you make it sound like it was no big thing. there were clear consequences of him lifting a kryptonite laden NK.