Bryan Singer: Why 'Superman Returns' Didn't Work

[Dr.]

Originally Posted by Nuffsaid

No, its the same principle. Only the gap is larger. If Iron Man takes place in 2009, why is Stark using cell phones from 2007? Someone so up to date on the latest tech would never carry such "outdated" gadget.

I’m not sure I follow. Having the timeline within the narratives be consistent is what’s germane, not the release dates of the films. When Supes first appears in STM (as Supes), the year is 1978. This is established through dialogue. The events of SII occur shortly after. (In the RDC, it’s immediately after; the Lester Cut is not as clear, it might be a few months.) Thus, the FOS tryst in SII (the alleged conception of Jason) happens around 1978-79. (Make it 1980 if you like – the difference won’t matter.) The point being: none of these possible dates can be reconciled with a timeline that has Jason being 5 or 6 years old in 2006. So, clearly, SR represents a new iteration of the Superman story. As such, it’s a non sequitur to question why Lois’s SII amnesia isn’t referenced in SR – a detail from an older, separate iteration.

But it can. Because the child won't be conceived in the 80's but closer to the millenium. It is the same concept applied in the comics. How long has it been in the Marvel universe since Superheroes started appearing? A little over a decade. Yet "over a decade" was the 40's. It is all part of the suspension of disbelieve process.

Yes, exactly! Each new generation retells the Superman story. In Action #1, Supes is active in 1938. In STM, baby Kal-El only arrives on Earth in 1948. In Smallville, the ship crashes in Kansas in 1989. The broad strokes are the same but the details have been updated in each retelling. And each new iteration establishes its own continuity – not beholden to the continuity of predecessors.

Cheers,

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins

Since many here are determined to compare Spider-Man movies to SR.



And where is Spider-Man 4 ? A movie with stranger plot points (Spider-Man 3) which many considered as exciting when it was released and made ton of money ?

Lets face some facts, both Singer and Sam Raimi are a fan of Donner Superman movies (So is Nolan.) In fact the first Spider-Man movie has many parallels with STM, second Spider-Man movie follows Superman 2 in many areas, third Spider-Man movie is close in many respects to Superman 3.

Superman as a Character is often compared to Moses and Jesus both in Comics and Movies, as Singer was making SR a part of existing Donnerverse Superman, it was to be expected.

I would say that Spider-Man character was created by taking inspiration form Superman.

Anyone who disagrees is not willing to look at these points.

In reponse to both of your Spider-Man bashing posts:

I'm talking about SR in this thread, not Spider-Man. I don't give a flying crap what your opinion is on those films. Bash those films elsewhere.

My only (poorly spelled) point was this; if the movie was more entertaining, those strange plot points wouldn't matter and a second sequel would be forthcoming.

Can you please keep the Spider-Man bashing on the Spider-Man forums? I mean we get it, you don't like the Spider-Man movies. Atleast I'm talking about SR on it's own freaking boards. Is that so hard for you to do?

[Bruce_Begins]

It is well known that Spider-Man movies do have parallels with Superman movies, If I point that, how am I bashing them ?

I was merely pointing out how much Spider-man and Superman movies and characters are alike, personally I wanted to see Spider-man 4.

Since this is SR thread, I will just talk about SR.

[Showtime]

Good idea. Let's stick to Superman Returns.

[Zack Snyder]

Originally Posted by SuperDaniel

Couldn`t have said it better. But about point 6, i dont think the problem were the actors because they are decent and even if i think that Routh is not a good actor and is very bland sometimes, he was a good Superman. Singer's idea and script were the main problem. Not even Oscar winner Kevin Spacey could save that stupid version of Luthor. Although i do agree that Lois should've been portrayed by a more experienced actress.

That may be a perfect post Even Spacey is not at fault, they wrote him as the Hackman sequel. He didn't choose the way they wanted him to play the character.

[M.E.H.Z.E.B]

Gee, Thanks guys.

[hopefuldreamer]

Originally Posted by Dr.

Well, that’s a somewhat problematic conclusion to draw… as the “consummation act” in SII appears to have happened around 1978-80 while SR (explicitly – the date is shown on the front page of the DP) takes place in 2006. Jason would be over 25 years old.

Taking SR as “stand-alone,” the assumptions one makes about its “pre-narrative” events are fairly modest and straightforward: shortly prior to the 5-year absence, Supes and Lois (must have) had sex – which (apparently) resulted in a pregnancy.

In the grand scheme, this is not a profoundly mysterious occurrence which requires Sherlock Holmes–like powers to figure out. And it's not one which remotely inspires the speculation that “amnesia” must somehow be involved.

When you go into the cinema having been TOLD this movie Is set after the events of S2, the assumptions you can make about the pre narrative, are not assumptions. They are based on what we saw in S2...

If Singer declared it was a 'stand alone' plot that mirrored the style of the previous films, then there would be no problem. But he didn't, did he?

[hopefuldreamer]

Originally Posted by Zack Snyder

That may be a perfect post Even Spacey is not at fault, they wrote him as the Hackman sequel. He didn't choose the way they wanted him to play the character.

It's really hard when you start debating whose at fault, the actor or director. In theory, because the director has chosen you and is literally telling you how to stand, what to do with your hands, how angry or cool to be... It's always their fault.

But I don't think it's fair to blame Bosworth for a bad Lois but not blame Spacey for a bad Lex.

It was ALL about the way they were written in the script. I think a Lois with witty dialogue, less 'mood' shots and more banter with CK would have been a lot better assesment of Bosworth's acting. I think she probably would have done a lot better.

[GreenKToo]

It's really too bad. SR had lots of potential. From the moment we saw Lex with the old lady in the mansion I figured it was in trouble. I literally cringed at that.
That scene, imo, should have been cut instead of the RTK one. what were they thinking....

Anywho, this is what *I* would have preferred to see...

This Lex would have also been responsible for tricking Superman into leaving, and he would have been non-goofy. Dark humor yes, screaming ''WROOOONG!!'' no.
Lex would have stolen the crystals in order to create high tech inventions and weapons, with NO mention of real estate, NONE.
He would have sold his inventions/weapons to the highest bidders, and created Lex-corp from the proceeds. He could have even used the kryptonian tech and changed one of his henchmen/bodyguards into Metallo.

In Supes absence, Lex would have been busy. He would have went on and created cures for cancer, stopped poverty, and used metallo to fight crime (while secretly stealing from the biggest corps in the world, and starting small wars to sell more weapons)
Lex would have cleaned up Metropolis to gain the public's trust ( who he hates ) so he could run for public office. mayor first, then congress.

Lex would have used every public speaking egagement to turn the public against the superman who abandoned them. He works the crowds into a fervor against superman at event after event. Before long, the public would have replaced Superman with Lex as their hero.

Time marches on. It's been 5 years and Lex finds himself bored. He's won. He has everything he has ever wanted. He is rid of Superman, he has power, wealth, women, but somethings missing. He paces the floor muttering. He stops and sips at a drink he's holding. He frowns.
Then it hits him. He actually misses his rival, the sparring, the chase...he shakes his head and stares out his Lex-corp penthouse window.....lightning flashes off in the distance, and for a brief instant, we see the reflection of Lex smile.

As if on cue, this is when superman's ship returns and crashlands in smallville. The next day, after he has recovered, clark catches up on things and indeed wonders if he is needed anymore. Maybe another city somewhere would be best. After some soul searching, he decides to try Metropolis again.

This Clark wouldn't have gotten his job back so easy at the planet. Jimmy is still his bud of course, and Lois still treats him like crap. It's Not until he, as clark, gets the dirt on Lex and releases it to the public that perry hires him back. Clark had to prove himself again. Clark also discovers that Lex tricked him into leaving..
With Clark having released damaging info on him, the publics trust in Lex is shattered. Lex is livid and sends Metallo to the DP.

We would have gotten an awesome shirtrip, and a shocked and excited Lex at the sight of Superman's return.

It would have had two superfights. Supes loses the first against metallo (in a close one), and wins the second..lots of damage and destruction happen.

Also, no kid. Its not that I hated him, its just that it created a big problem in SR and would have been even more of a problem in a sequel.

[Dozerman]

Originally Posted by GreenKToo

It's really too bad. SR had lots of potential. From the moment we saw Lex with the old lady in the mansion I figured it was in trouble. I literally cringed at that.
That scene, imo, should have been cut instead of the RTK one. what were they thinking....

Anywho, this is what *I* would have preferred to see...

This Lex would have also been responsible for tricking Superman into leaving, and he would have been non-goofy. Dark humor yes, screaming ''WROOOONG!!'' no.
Lex would have stolen the crystals in order to create high tech inventions and weapons, with NO mention of real estate, NONE.
He would have sold his inventions/weapons to the highest bidders, and created Lex-corp from the proceeds. He could have even used the kryptonian tech and changed one of his henchmen/bodyguards into Metallo.

In Supes absence, Lex would have been busy. He would have went on and created cures for cancer, stopped poverty, and used metallo to fight crime (while secretly stealing from the biggest corps in the world, and starting small wars to sell more weapons)
Lex would have cleaned up Metropolis to gain the public's trust ( who he hates ) so he could run for public office. mayor first, then congress.

Lex would have used every public speaking egagement to turn the public against the superman who abandoned them. He works the crowds into a fervor against superman at event after event. Before long, the public would have replaced Superman with Lex as their hero.

Time marches on. It's been 5 years and Lex finds himself bored. He's won. He has everything he has ever wanted. He is rid of Superman, he has power, wealth, women, but somethings missing. He paces the floor muttering. He stops and sips at a drink he's holding. He frowns.
Then it hits him. He actually misses his rival, the sparring, the chase...he shakes his head and stares out his Lex-corp penthouse window.....lightning flashes off in the distance, and for a brief instant, we see the reflection of Lex smile.

As if on cue, this is when superman's ship returns and crashlands in smallville. The next day, after he has recovered, clark catches up on things and indeed wonders if he is needed anymore. Maybe another city somewhere would be best. After some soul searching, he decides to try Metropolis again.

This Clark wouldn't have gotten his job back so easy at the planet. Jimmy is still his bud of course, and Lois still treats him like crap. It's Not until he, as clark, gets the dirt on Lex and releases it to the public does perry hire him back. Clark had to prove himself again. Clark also discovers that Lex tricked him into leaving..
With Clark having released damaging info on him, the publics trust in Lex is shattered. Lex is livid and sends Metallo to the DP.

We would have gotten an awesome shirtrip, and a shocked and excited Lex at the sight of Superman's return.

It would have had two superfights. Supes loses the first against metallo (in a close one), and wins the second..lots of damage and destruction happen.

Also, no kid. Its not that I hated him, its just that it created a big problem in SR and would have been even more of a problem in a sequel.

I like this story but I don't think it would work for a movie. It would make a great comic or short story. Remember that singer only had the movies for reference. He didn't read any comics and wasn't even a fan. On another note. Do you think Lois get's rid of her amnesia when Jason throws the piano. Like in superman 4 when her and superman jump off the roof of Clark's Apartment.

[hopefuldreamer]

Originally Posted by GreenKToo

It's really too bad. SR had lots of potential. From the moment we saw Lex with the old lady in the mansion I figured it was in trouble. I literally cringed at that.
That scene, imo, should have been cut instead of the RTK one. what were they thinking....

Anywho, this is what *I* would have preferred to see...

This Lex would have also been responsible for tricking Superman into leaving, and he would have been non-goofy. Dark humor yes, screaming ''WROOOONG!!'' no.
Lex would have stolen the crystals in order to create high tech inventions and weapons, with NO mention of real estate, NONE.
He would have sold his inventions/weapons to the highest bidders, and created Lex-corp from the proceeds. He could have even used the kryptonian tech and changed one of his henchmen/bodyguards into Metallo.

In Supes absence, Lex would have been busy. He would have went on and created cures for cancer, stopped poverty, and used metallo to fight crime (while secretly stealing from the biggest corps in the world, and starting small wars to sell more weapons)
Lex would have cleaned up Metropolis to gain the public's trust ( who he hates ) so he could run for public office. mayor first, then congress.

Lex would have used every public speaking egagement to turn the public against the superman who abandoned them. He works the crowds into a fervor against superman at event after event. Before long, the public would have replaced Superman with Lex as their hero.

Time marches on. It's been 5 years and Lex finds himself bored. He's won. He has everything he has ever wanted. He is rid of Superman, he has power, wealth, women, but somethings missing. He paces the floor muttering. He stops and sips at a drink he's holding. He frowns.
Then it hits him. He actually misses his rival, the sparring, the chase...he shakes his head and stares out his Lex-corp penthouse window.....lightning flashes off in the distance, and for a brief instant, we see the reflection of Lex smile.

As if on cue, this is when superman's ship returns and crashlands in smallville. The next day, after he has recovered, clark catches up on things and indeed wonders if he is needed anymore. Maybe another city somewhere would be best. After some soul searching, he decides to try Metropolis again.

This Clark wouldn't have gotten his job back so easy at the planet. Jimmy is still his bud of course, and Lois still treats him like crap. It's Not until he, as clark, gets the dirt on Lex and releases it to the public does perry hire him back. Clark had to prove himself again. Clark also discovers that Lex tricked him into leaving..
With Clark having released damaging info on him, the publics trust in Lex is shattered. Lex is livid and sends Metallo to the DP.

We would have gotten an awesome shirtrip, and a shocked and excited Lex at the sight of Superman's return.

It would have had two superfights. Supes loses the first against metallo (in a close one), and wins the second..lots of damage and destruction happen.

Also, no kid. Its not that I hated him, its just that it created a big problem in SR and would have been even more of a problem in a sequel.

That's perfect. Seriously. Love it

[STC]

Originally Posted by GreenKToo

It's really too bad. SR had lots of potential. From the moment we saw Lex with the old lady in the mansion I figured it was in trouble. I literally cringed at that.
That scene, imo, should have been cut instead of the RTK one. what were they thinking....

Anywho, this is what *I* would have preferred to see...

This Lex would have also been responsible for tricking Superman into leaving, and he would have been non-goofy. Dark humor yes, screaming ''WROOOONG!!'' no.
Lex would have stolen the crystals in order to create high tech inventions and weapons, with NO mention of real estate, NONE.
He would have sold his inventions/weapons to the highest bidders, and created Lex-corp from the proceeds. He could have even used the kryptonian tech and changed one of his henchmen/bodyguards into Metallo.

In Supes absence, Lex would have been busy. He would have went on and created cures for cancer, stopped poverty, and used metallo to fight crime (while secretly stealing from the biggest corps in the world, and starting small wars to sell more weapons)
Lex would have cleaned up Metropolis to gain the public's trust ( who he hates ) so he could run for public office. mayor first, then congress.

Lex would have used every public speaking egagement to turn the public against the superman who abandoned them. He works the crowds into a fervor against superman at event after event. Before long, the public would have replaced Superman with Lex as their hero.

Time marches on. It's been 5 years and Lex finds himself bored. He's won. He has everything he has ever wanted. He is rid of Superman, he has power, wealth, women, but somethings missing. He paces the floor muttering. He stops and sips at a drink he's holding. He frowns.
Then it hits him. He actually misses his rival, the sparring, the chase...he shakes his head and stares out his Lex-corp penthouse window.....lightning flashes off in the distance, and for a brief instant, we see the reflection of Lex smile.

As if on cue, this is when superman's ship returns and crashlands in smallville. The next day, after he has recovered, clark catches up on things and indeed wonders if he is needed anymore. Maybe another city somewhere would be best. After some soul searching, he decides to try Metropolis again.

This Clark wouldn't have gotten his job back so easy at the planet. Jimmy is still his bud of course, and Lois still treats him like crap. It's Not until he, as clark, gets the dirt on Lex and releases it to the public does perry hire him back. Clark had to prove himself again. Clark also discovers that Lex tricked him into leaving..
With Clark having released damaging info on him, the publics trust in Lex is shattered. Lex is livid and sends Metallo to the DP.

We would have gotten an awesome shirtrip, and a shocked and excited Lex at the sight of Superman's return.

It would have had two superfights. Supes loses the first against metallo (in a close one), and wins the second..lots of damage and destruction happen.

Also, no kid. Its not that I hated him, its just that it created a big problem in SR and would have been even more of a problem in a sequel.

Nice one!

[Squaremaster316]

Confused Matthew gives his thoughts on the problems with the film.

http://confusedmatthew.com/Superman-Returns.php

[BH/HHH]

Originally Posted by GreenKToo

It's really too bad. SR had lots of potential. From the moment we saw Lex with the old lady in the mansion I figured it was in trouble. I literally cringed at that.
That scene, imo, should have been cut instead of the RTK one. what were they thinking....

Anywho, this is what *I* would have preferred to see...

This Lex would have also been responsible for tricking Superman into leaving, and he would have been non-goofy. Dark humor yes, screaming ''WROOOONG!!'' no.
Lex would have stolen the crystals in order to create high tech inventions and weapons, with NO mention of real estate, NONE.
He would have sold his inventions/weapons to the highest bidders, and created Lex-corp from the proceeds. He could have even used the kryptonian tech and changed one of his henchmen/bodyguards into Metallo.

In Supes absence, Lex would have been busy. He would have went on and created cures for cancer, stopped poverty, and used metallo to fight crime (while secretly stealing from the biggest corps in the world, and starting small wars to sell more weapons)
Lex would have cleaned up Metropolis to gain the public's trust ( who he hates ) so he could run for public office. mayor first, then congress.

Lex would have used every public speaking egagement to turn the public against the superman who abandoned them. He works the crowds into a fervor against superman at event after event. Before long, the public would have replaced Superman with Lex as their hero.

Time marches on. It's been 5 years and Lex finds himself bored. He's won. He has everything he has ever wanted. He is rid of Superman, he has power, wealth, women, but somethings missing. He paces the floor muttering. He stops and sips at a drink he's holding. He frowns.
Then it hits him. He actually misses his rival, the sparring, the chase...he shakes his head and stares out his Lex-corp penthouse window.....lightning flashes off in the distance, and for a brief instant, we see the reflection of Lex smile.

As if on cue, this is when superman's ship returns and crashlands in smallville. The next day, after he has recovered, clark catches up on things and indeed wonders if he is needed anymore. Maybe another city somewhere would be best. After some soul searching, he decides to try Metropolis again.

This Clark wouldn't have gotten his job back so easy at the planet. Jimmy is still his bud of course, and Lois still treats him like crap. It's Not until he, as clark, gets the dirt on Lex and releases it to the public that perry hires him back. Clark had to prove himself again. Clark also discovers that Lex tricked him into leaving..
With Clark having released damaging info on him, the publics trust in Lex is shattered. Lex is livid and sends Metallo to the DP.

We would have gotten an awesome shirtrip, and a shocked and excited Lex at the sight of Superman's return.

It would have had two superfights. Supes loses the first against metallo (in a close one), and wins the second..lots of damage and destruction happen.

Also, no kid. Its not that I hated him, its just that it created a big problem in SR and would have been even more of a problem in a sequel.

Lois treating Superman like crap was the worst thing about Superman Returns for me, she never should treat him like crap. In the Donner movies she liked Clark and tried to help him alot (albeit sometimes by insulting him) but the heart was there.

I like the rest of your story though

[sf2]

Originally Posted by Squaremaster316

Confused Matthew gives his thoughts on the problems with the film.

http://confusedmatthew.com/Superman-Returns.php

A Summary pls.

[Squaremaster316]

Originally Posted by sf2

A Summary pls.

Basically, he said it was a total mess of a film.

[BH/HHH]

But it's not a mess at all, it's just pretty devoid of fun. I'd say a mess is a film that doesn't flow or make sense. The only thing I'd say is a mess is the vague continuity.

[Squaremaster316]

Originally Posted by BH/HHH

But it's not a mess at all, it's just pretty devoid of fun. I'd say a mess is a film that doesn't flow or make sense. The only thing I'd say is a mess is the vague continuity.

A reboot/remake that is also a sequel, but not for part 3 or 4?

Sounds like a mess to me.

[Glassjaw]

By this stage I'm sure there's nothing new which can be added to the subject of SR, but I watched it a few days ago, and damn Superman's board is moving slow as hell (a 6 year film drought will do that) so here's my take on it.

It wasn't a bad film. It wasn't a great film. It falls somewhere in-between, which is why SR isn't remembered as being bad, its actually barely remembered at all by the general audience. As a superhero film featuring the oldest and perhaps best known hero of them all it should have made huge splashes, instead it fell by the wayside.

I watched the dvd extra's and it made me like Routh even more, I think he could have been great - the role just gave him sweet FA to do. Much like people complain about there not being enough Batman/Bruce Wayne in TDKR, SR is what happens when the first Superman film in 20 years comes along, and he barely gets to say anything. Way too much attention is taken off Superman and Clark by prolonged scenes with Lex and his henchmen, or Lois and Richard, or the child. And then when we finally do get to a scene with Clark in, they're short and totally lacking in dialogue. Routh had no time to really own the role on screen. Also the script is clever and neat at times, before switching to scenes which un-do all the good stuff.

And as for the lack of action complaint, Steve argues in 'Whats so bad about SR?' that there is plenty of action, pointing out Supe's using his heat vision to melt the glass, frost breath to put out fires during the Metropolis earth quake bit etc. I would say okay, then there is a lack of exciting action. The plane rescue was great. Each time it gives me goosebumps. But it highlights how dull everything else is he does after that. Putting out fire with frost breath is just not up to scratch after a scene like that. Catching the Daily Planet globe is cool, but only if he then goes on to more visually exciting set pieces. Lifting up another object, albeit a far heavier one, is not up-ing the ante much.

The film has bad elements, but it's not a bad film because it has some really good elements too. In the end it equals out, and becomes a film everyone else has forgotten about, except us bigger Superman fans who can only de-construct what happened and wish things could have been done differently. That is, until MoS. If this new film turns out as great as were hoping it will be (after all, surely mistake have been learnt by now) then we will have to thank SR for part of it, and perhaps the Superman drought of the 00's would have been worth it.

PS. I ****ing hate the plastic S

[BH/HHH]

Originally Posted by Squaremaster316

A reboot/remake that is also a sequel, but not for part 3 or 4?

Sounds like a mess to me.

Hence the reason I said the vague continuity is a mess but not the film itself. As a film its easy to follow, the hero returns, the world has changed, his old GF has a kid (which he later discovers is his), his arch nemesis is up to his old tricks, he saves the day. Don't see what's a mess about that.

[sf2]

Originally Posted by Squaremaster316

Basically, he said it was a total mess of a film.

Wow. Never thought he would say that. I thought he woyuld at least defend the movie. Maybe like it.s more a romance movie than action hero movie...

[Dr.]

Originally Posted by BH/HHH

Hence the reason I said the vague continuity is a mess but not the film itself. As a film its easy to follow, the hero returns, the world has changed, his old GF has a kid (which he later discovers is his), his arch nemesis is up to his old tricks, he saves the day. Don't see what's a mess about that.

Indeed. It’s odd to assert that you need to know/research external interviews, commentary or behind-the-scenes materials in order to appreciate how good or “messed up” a movie is - that simply watching it is insufficient and will somehow give you wrong information.

[Nevaratoiel]

If he thinks the vague continuity is a mess, it's a mess he himself created. Didn't he watch the film before releasing it?

Just a thought that struck me after reading it in this topic... In case people didn't know it yet, I personally loved the film.

[sf2]

Originally Posted by BH/HHH

Hence the reason I said the vague continuity is a mess but not the film itself. As a film its easy to follow, the hero returns, the world has changed, his old GF has a kid (which he later discovers is his), his arch nemesis is up to his old tricks, he saves the day. Don't see what's a mess about that.

I like the story than the movie itself.

Btw.. Dont have a good feeling on mos. Feel like a remake of s1 n s2.

[BH/HHH]

Have you seen the CC footgae? MOS looks nothing like the first two Superman films. Yes revisiting characters and origin stories will always bring some familiarity but MOS looks noway like a rehash of the first two Donner movies.