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Old 07-04-2011, 01:07 PM   #26
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

If you watch Transformers and come away with the idea that you need to be racist, sexist, and homophobic, then you're an idiot.

I'm also going to say that the only thing in the first post that I find moderately well thought out is the "But it's all so FUNNY! Right? So if you don't like it, you're just too uptight!" Stating the most common and truthful argument against your points within your argument and then denouncing it as belaying actual discussion, while at the same time not addressing it at all, makes it seem unimportant and (most importantly) causes some to subconsciously avoid using it.

As for the thread title, "Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!" That is incorrect. Those things are not entertainment. However, if you really look, you'll find them just about anywhere.

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Old 07-04-2011, 01:14 PM   #27
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

So are Tyler Perry movies racist? He also plays a crazy old woman. Is that sexist?

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Old 07-04-2011, 01:44 PM   #28
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

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Originally Posted by SuperFerret View Post
If you watch Transformers and come away with the idea that you need to be racist, sexist, and homophobic, then you're an idiot.

I'm also going to say that the only thing in the first post that I find moderately well thought out is the "But it's all so FUNNY! Right? So if you don't like it, you're just too uptight!" Stating the most common and truthful argument against your points within your argument and then denouncing it as belaying actual discussion, while at the same time not addressing it at all, makes it seem unimportant and (most importantly) causes some to subconsciously avoid using it.

As for the thread title, "Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!" That is incorrect. Those things are not entertainment. However, if you really look, you'll find them just about anywhere.
This. Short and to the point. Sorry OP, but this is your problem. Why? Because you chose to interpret what you interpreted at the expense of the movie. Your generalizing moment left something to be desired. A palatable execution that is.


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Old 07-04-2011, 05:33 PM   #29
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

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Yes, it's true that video games, music and movies have long been the perfect scapegoat for parents and teachers. The fact of the matter is, these violent games, while they might not be exactly hurting anyone per se, they sure aren't helping anyone either. Some people are more violent than others (always have been, always will be), but out society doesn't need the unnecessary encouragement, in my opinion. How many school shooting do you think there were in the 1950's?
What encouragement? Where in these games and movies does it encourage people to be racist/sexist/violent? I'm sure they all have disclaimers saying that they have no intent to influence the audience's minds. You can say that that's an easy way to brush off the flack the creators get but the creators know well that when people take their fiction too seriously, then they can't be at fault. The creators know that what they create is nothing to be taken seriously but when one person decides to take it too far, the creators get all the blame and none is put on the person that's really responsible.

It isn't the creators' fault that people can't separate reality from fiction.

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Old 07-04-2011, 05:50 PM   #30
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

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Projecting much? I don't need any kind of validation. Nor am I asking for any kind of response in particular. If you read my initial post, you'd see that I would hope this would spark some intelligent discussion. A few people have contributed quite well so far...

I really love your whole, "it is what it is...might as well just bend over and take it." attitude.

What's the point of any thread on these boards? These aren't praise boards. The topics I brought up are just as valid for discussion as "What was Megatron's master plan?", if not more so.
I didn't say you needed validation to dislike it. And no one needs validation to like his movies either. And I'm not asking you to "bend over and take" anything. Dislike them. It's okay.

Bay movies have sexism, racism, jingosim and homophobia. Most agree. That is entertainment. Again, most agree. If you want to discuss why the American mass audience enjoys such enjoyment, then that's a more general discussion for somewhere else. Go talk to your friends about it. Or find a forum about Hollywood films in general.

This is a Transformers forum. And the phenomenon you speak of is not unique to the Transformers films. And definitely not representative of the Transformers franchise.

So, no, this discussion is not as relevant as discussions on character objectives throughout the trilogy.

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Old 07-04-2011, 11:04 PM   #31
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

If these movies are considered demeaning to ethnic stereotypes then why would Anthony Anderson, Tyrese Gibson, Ken Jeong and John Tuturro agree to be in them?

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Old 07-05-2011, 01:23 AM   #32
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If these movies are considered demeaning to ethnic stereotypes then why would Anthony Anderson, Tyrese Gibson, Ken Jeong and John Tuturro agree to be in them?

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Old 07-05-2011, 01:35 AM   #33
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I know this is the Transformers board, so I didn't have any great expectations in terms of the responses I'd receive, but I was maybe, kinda hoping for at least a little bit of critical analysis. Jonathan Crane and a few others have made intelligent statements, but the rest of the responses seem to have been made defensively without actually having read and understood the initial post. I knew reading and comprehension was down in this country, but holy smokes.

All the things I listed exist in movies across the board, no doubt about that. My qualm is with the fact that it is so brainlessly and nonchalantly accepted and even praised. It's this mindless zealotry that leads to bigger box office and big box office tells Hollywood that this stuff sells. So what do we get? More tripe like this, more often where racism, sexism, jingoism and homophobia are OK as long as it's "just a brainless action movie". To everyone who's made an excuse defending these films- wake up, get your head out of the sand and demand more of your entertainment. Unless you're fine with complacency. Otherwise, have fun living your life never having had a thought of your own.

This may all come off as very insulting, but it's no more of an insult or a giant middle finger than what Michael Bay/Hollywood is giving to you all when you pay for a ticket to and watch this movie.

If that doesn't make sense to you, it's no use explaining it 'cause you just won't get it.

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Old 07-05-2011, 01:48 AM   #34
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This may all come off as very insulting, but it's no more of an insult or a giant middle finger than what Michael Bay/Hollywood is giving to you all when you pay for a ticket to and watch this movie.
I'm absolutely positive his middle finger is saved for those movie-goers that dislike his films, yet still spent their time watching TF3.

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Old 07-05-2011, 02:09 AM   #35
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I'm not sure you going to get "intelligent" debate from people who liked the movie, considering the subject matter you listed that is littered all over these TF movies.

Remember their whole argument is, "It's a summer blockbuster! Shut off your brain! Laugh!" ...... that essentially is the essence of Michael Bay - mindlessness.

"Shut off your brain" might also be used a recommendation to not over think. We're basically making assumptions about Michael Bay that might not be warranted.

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Old 07-05-2011, 02:25 AM   #36
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

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If these movies are considered demeaning to ethnic stereotypes then why would Anthony Anderson, Tyrese Gibson, Ken Jeong and John Tuturro agree to be in them?
Spielberg + Bay + Guaranteed Huge Box Office = Where do I sign?

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Old 07-05-2011, 02:26 AM   #37
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

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Originally Posted by Vid Electricz View Post
I know this is the Transformers board, so I didn't have any great expectations in terms of the responses I'd receive, but I was maybe, kinda hoping for at least a little bit of critical analysis. Jonathan Crane and a few others have made intelligent statements, but the rest of the responses seem to have been made defensively without actually having read and understood the initial post. I knew reading and comprehension was down in this country, but holy smokes.

All the things I listed exist in movies across the board, no doubt about that. My qualm is with the fact that it is so brainlessly and nonchalantly accepted and even praised. It's this mindless zealotry that leads to bigger box office and big box office tells Hollywood that this stuff sells. So what do we get? More tripe like this, more often where racism, sexism, jingoism and homophobia are OK as long as it's "just a brainless action movie". To everyone who's made an excuse defending these films- wake up, get your head out of the sand and demand more of your entertainment. Unless you're fine with complacency. Otherwise, have fun living your life never having had a thought of your own.

This may all come off as very insulting, but it's no more of an insult or a giant middle finger than what Michael Bay/Hollywood is giving to you all when you pay for a ticket to and watch this movie.

If that doesn't make sense to you, it's no use explaining it 'cause you just won't get it.
First, I wanted to ask how the view was from that high horse you're sitting on?

You really seem to get off on insulting people. You may perceive these things from films, but that does not mean others share your views. And, it most certainly does not make them any less intelligent than you. Nor, does it give you the right to smugly sit their and insult them.

You have a point, that as long as people buy movie tickets, Hollywood will continue to produce what sells. That's simply smart business. Every company with a CEO with half a brain will do the same thing, and they would fail if they didn't.

To address each of your issues...

Sexism. Sorry, pal, but sex sells. If that's a problem for you, you're going to be pissed off for a long time. Hollywood has been casting eye candy since they started, and they will continue to do so until the general public gets it through their skulls that looks aren't everything.


Racism.
Since when is not casting a minority as your lead,made you a racist director? While it is true, that not many minority actors get big rolls, and even fewer get awards, I don't see how this makes the directors racists. Spielberg, for example. This is the guy who essentially shut down Megan Fox's career for making a Hitler remark, yet only one of his films has ever stared a minority in a lead roll. Does this make him a racist? The same can be said for James Cameron.

Jingoism.
Seriously? Bay portrays the American military kicking the crap out of invading alien robots, and this somehow means that he supports aggressive foreign policy and advocates the use of threats and unprovoked force to protect America? That's a bit of a stretch.

Homophobia.
There is a huge difference between belittling someone's manhood, and being homophobic. A homophobe believes that what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home, somehow effects their way of life. Telling a guy to run home to his boyfriend is not. That comment is designed to insult his masculinity. This is something a lot of guys take seriously. Society has shaped the role of the common man, and we guys tend to try and fit it. Women do similar things, too.

I hope this clears thing up for you, but then again, I'm just a Transformers fan, and you know, you really shouldn't expect much from us.

By the way, I have a new term for you to review. Elitist. I think it may just fit you.

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Old 07-05-2011, 02:34 AM   #38
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

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Originally Posted by Vid Electricz View Post
I know this is the Transformers board, so I didn't have any great expectations in terms of the responses I'd receive, but I was maybe, kinda hoping for at least a little bit of critical analysis. Jonathan Crane and a few others have made intelligent statements, but the rest of the responses seem to have been made defensively without actually having read and understood the initial post. I knew reading and comprehension was down in this country, but holy smokes.

All the things I listed exist in movies across the board, no doubt about that. My qualm is with the fact that it is so brainlessly and nonchalantly accepted and even praised. It's this mindless zealotry that leads to bigger box office and big box office tells Hollywood that this stuff sells. So what do we get? More tripe like this, more often where racism, sexism, jingoism and homophobia are OK as long as it's "just a brainless action movie". To everyone who's made an excuse defending these films- wake up, get your head out of the sand and demand more of your entertainment. Unless you're fine with complacency. Otherwise, have fun living your life never having had a thought of your own.

This may all come off as very insulting, but it's no more of an insult or a giant middle finger than what Michael Bay/Hollywood is giving to you all when you pay for a ticket to and watch this movie.

If that doesn't make sense to you, it's no use explaining it 'cause you just won't get it.
You should really check out the chud.com message boards. They're genuinely interested in actual film criticism and analysis. They'll happily, and insightfully, discuss themes, messages and auteur theory. Unfortunately, as I learned years ago, there's a sad absence of openness to ideas around here. Hence, why I post so irregularly.

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Old 07-05-2011, 02:38 AM   #39
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

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Originally Posted by Vid Electricz View Post
I know this is the Transformers board, so I didn't have any great expectations in terms of the responses I'd receive, but I was maybe, kinda hoping for at least a little bit of critical analysis. Jonathan Crane and a few others have made intelligent statements, but the rest of the responses seem to have been made defensively without actually having read and understood the initial post. I knew reading and comprehension was down in this country, but holy smokes.
You need to stop insulting the posters on this boards intelligence just cause they are not giving you the response you want to hear. Not everyone will agree with you, and people are allowed to enjoy the film. If the film offended you on a personal level then you should have walked out.

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Old 07-05-2011, 02:40 AM   #40
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

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Originally Posted by Hotwire View Post
First, I wanted to ask how the view was from that high horse you're sitting on?

You really seem to get off on insulting people. You may perceive these things from films, but that does not mean others share your views. And, it most certainly does not make them any less intelligent than you. Nor, does it give you the right to smugly sit their and insult them.

You have a point, that as long as people buy movie tickets, Hollywood will continue to produce what sells. That's simply smart business. Every company with a CEO with half a brain will do the same thing, and they would fail if they didn't.

To address each of your issues...

Sexism. Sorry, pal, but sex sells. If that's a problem for you, you're going to be pissed off for a long time. Hollywood has been casting eye candy since they started, and they will continue to do so until the general public gets it through their skulls that looks aren't everything.


Racism.
Since when is not casting a minority as your lead,made you a racist director? While it is true, that not many minority actors get big rolls, and even fewer get awards, I don't see how this makes the directors racists. Spielberg, for example. This is the guy who essentially shut down Megan Fox's career for making a Hitler remark, yet only one of his films has ever stared a minority in a lead roll. Does this make him a racist? The same can be said for James Cameron.

Jingoism.
Seriously? Bay portrays the American military kicking the crap out of invading alien robots, and this somehow means that he supports aggressive foreign policy and advocates the use of threats and unprovoked force to protect America? That's a bit of a stretch.

Homophobia.
There is a huge difference between belittling someone's manhood, and being homophobic. A homophobe believes that what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home, somehow effects their way of life. Telling a guy to run home to his boyfriend is not. That comment is designed to insult his masculinity. This is something a lot of guys take seriously. Society has shaped the role of the common man, and we guys tend to try and fit it. Women do similar things, too.

I hope this clears thing up for you, but then again, I'm just a Transformers fan, and you know, you really shouldn't expect much from us.

By the way, I have a new term for you to review. Elitist. I think it may just fit you.

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Old 07-05-2011, 03:19 AM   #41
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

Actually (to the original poster), that would be sexist, not homophobic, unless slang has changed.

It's a dumb, crude, loud, poorly-thought out movie with amazing, state-of-the-art special effects. And it's directed by Michael Bay. He's already done two of these movies. One was bad, the other was terrible. What do you expect? Hamlet?


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Old 07-05-2011, 03:35 AM   #42
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I don't expect Hamlet.

Why is the only logical comparison classic literature? Instead of other movie franchises like Star Wars or Indiana Jones?

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Old 07-05-2011, 03:39 AM   #43
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Who comes into a Transformers movie hoping for sexism, racism, homophobia and jingoism?

No Transformers was never high art but was never those things either.

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Old 07-05-2011, 03:39 AM   #44
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I don't expect Hamlet.

Why is the only logical comparison classic literature? Instead of other movie franchises like Star Wars or Indiana Jones?
I don't know if you want to go with those two, given their latest installments.

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Old 07-05-2011, 03:48 AM   #45
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I don't know if you want to go with those two, given their latest installments.
If I could get one or two G1 TF movies as heartfelt and engrossing as the original Star Wars or Indiana Jones movies I'd be happy.

They don't even have to be as highly regarded, just a G1 movie where the conflicts and personalities of the title characters matter and the sci-fi is decent.

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Old 07-05-2011, 03:54 AM   #46
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If I could get one or two G1 TF movies as heartfelt and engrossing as the original Star Wars or Indiana Jones movies I'd be happy.

They don't even have to be as highly regarded, just a G1 movie where the conflicts and personalities of the title characters matter and the sci-fi is decent.
Well I don't disagree that a Transformers movie could be good. I just don't see it happening with people like Bay, Orci, and Krutzman at the helm. They've already made two bad films, why would the third be any better?

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Old 07-05-2011, 03:56 AM   #47
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

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Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
If I could get one or two G1 TF movies as heartfelt and engrossing as the original Star Wars or Indiana Jones movies I'd be happy.

They don't even have to be as highly regarded, just a G1 movie where the conflicts and personalities of the title characters matter and the sci-fi is decent.
I'm pretty sure that's what most of us want.

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Old 07-05-2011, 04:12 AM   #48
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You should really check out the chud.com message boards. They're genuinely interested in actual film criticism and analysis. They'll happily, and insightfully, discuss themes, messages and auteur theory. Unfortunately, as I learned years ago, there's a sad absence of openness to ideas around here. Hence, why I post so irregularly.
That was funny.

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Old 07-05-2011, 04:55 AM   #49
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Yep. Said to say that with the lesser number of roles open for minorities in Hollywood, beggars can't be choosers.

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Old 07-05-2011, 05:46 AM   #50
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Dude, it's just a movie. Chill.

Now gimme my damn 10 points!!!

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