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Old 07-05-2011, 11:37 PM   #76
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

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I don't own her, but, as I said, I did win her heart. Cherish and treasure her, as she does me. We are very proud to have each other. For the record, she felt my statement was very sweet.

Now, please, move on to my other rebuttals. I'm real curious about the jingoism one.

Why? It it seems my first response went completely unnoticed. There's no actual discussion taking place here.

I know you were upset about the "reading/comprehension" remark I made, so I know you read this part of my response:


I can tell, how these things make sense in the framework of the world that Michael bay has set up, but I'm trying to look at things from outside the box. Questioning why these things are the way they are and why more people don't care.


That's the thing right there. Your responses were on a superficial level, devising reasons why they're there, when they never had to be in the first place.

Sure the military can be shown making an effort, etc... but there's no need for the over the top masturbatory military fetishism showcased in these films. It's so blatant and in-your-face that it's impossible to miss. Yet another case of a hack trying to shove glib political agenda's down our throats in a movie about giant robots from space.


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Old 07-05-2011, 11:53 PM   #77
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Why? It it seems my first response went completely unnoticed. There's no actual discussion taking place here.

I know you were upset about the "reading/comprehension" remark I made, so I know you read this part of my response:


I can tell, how these things make sense in the framework of the world that Michael bay has set up, but I'm trying to look at things from outside the box. Questioning why these things are the way they are and why more people don't care.


That's the thing right there. Your responses were on a superficial level, devising reasons why they're there, when they never had to be in the first place.

Sure the military can be shown making an effort, etc... but there's no need for the over the top masturbatory military fetishism showcased in these films. It's so blatant and in-your-face that it's impossible to miss. Yet another case of a hack trying to shove glib political agenda's down our throats in a movie about giant robots from space.

Wow. You think Michael Bay has some sort of military political agenda? And you get this from him showing the military doing a lot to protect the rear of the world from evil giant robots? Let me ask you this. If the Transformers were real, and they were actually attacking the planet, why the Hell do you think the American military is going to do?

Besides, what you describe is not jingoism. Jingoism is a belief in an overly aggressive foreign policy that uses threats and force to "protect" that countries way of life. It seems to also imply that the level is irrational. For example, invading a country that poses no real threat to you, but that you feel may be a threat.

How does Bay's portrays of the American military fit into that? If Anything, he shows restraint. I remember another movie about invading aliens where the president nuked Houston, TX. That seems more like what our military would actually do.

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Old 07-06-2011, 12:40 AM   #78
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Wow. You think Michael Bay has some sort of military political agenda? And you get this from him showing the military doing a lot to protect the rear of the world from evil giant robots? Let me ask you this. If the Transformers were real, and they were actually attacking the planet, why the Hell do you think the American military is going to do?

Besides, what you describe is not jingoism. Jingoism is a belief in an overly aggressive foreign policy that uses threats and force to "protect" that countries way of life. It seems to also imply that the level is irrational. For example, invading a country that poses no real threat to you, but that you feel may be a threat.

How does Bay's portrays of the American military fit into that? If Anything, he shows restraint. I remember another movie about invading aliens where the president nuked Houston, TX. That seems more like what our military would actually do.
jin·go·ism
    1. flag waving: an appeal intended to arouse patriotic emotions
That's exactly the way the US military is used in Bayformers.

You don't need the military playing such a prominent role in a Transformers movie. The Decepticons have far superior technology so it would make sense if the military allowed the Autobots to be the first line of defense.

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Old 07-06-2011, 12:44 AM   #79
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-Sexism: Specifically, the objectification of women- Women are trophies to be won or lost. They must always appear sexy and seductive (for all the adolescent boys and peter-pan syndrome boy-men watching).

-Racism: If you're not white, you exist as a peripheral character. Most likely comic relief or some other stereotype (the stoic black man). In other words, you're disposable and you're a joke (blatantly racist buck toothed robots not withstanding).

-Jingoism: America is the best and the military is #1. English, dude, English.

-Homophobia: "You gonna go cry to your boyfriend? Pussy!" There's plenty more where that came from. Needless to say, these movies are riddled with the kind of sophomoric, juvenile macho-man, tough guy behavior that only the most ignorant among us (and little kids who don't know any better) buy in to.
My response to each of your complaints.


-Sexism: You sound like a women who is sick of seeing girls wear make-up and working out to keep their bodies in shape. Since when are women always the sex objects. Alot of women I bet wish their boyfriends/husbands had a six pack while alot of men wish their girlfriends/wifes had D size breast. It's in human nature to want a mate that appears to be in top shape. What about 007? Sex sells and there is no going around it.




-Racism: How come no one is saying that Ironhide is the trigger happy jar head white guy? Who thinks your a wus unless you drive a pickup truck. It's a movie about Robots and action. Not a movie that is trying to give people the wrong message about blacks. If the Autobots were all voice by white people and the Decepticons were all voiced by black people than I would make a case on Racism. But thats not the case is it?





-Jingoism: I would rather have a movie were the military is treated like #1 than a movie were they are seen as evil. Our Men and Women in the service should atleast get the respect to not have movies make them out as the bad guys. For real dude you are sounding like a movie is in the wrong if they are not against the military and if so you need your head looked at.


-Homophobia: How you see Transformers as Himophobia is beyond me and I really have nothing to add on this subject.

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Old 07-06-2011, 12:53 AM   #80
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If you like these things I wouldn't reccommend Transformers, it's a pretty shallow work of fiction. If Bay tried to make it intelligent the end result would be so different from Transformers you'd hate it more. Hell the plot to the last film was pretty much identical to two cartoon episodes from the eighties.
Transformers doesn't have to be shallow or weak fiction.

Transformers are machines that are alive and have souls. The Autobots were originally worker class machines. The decepticons were a military class. A multi-million year civil war between the two robot classes took place as Autobots wanted freedom and the decepticons wanted tyranny. Their war is extended to Earth when they search the galaxy for energy to win a strategic advantage. This can be a great sci-fi story in the right hands.

Compare that to Batman where boy who's rich parents get shot trains and becomes an adult who dresses up like a bat to fight a list of insane super villains. This sounds far dumber than the Transformers premise. But it all comes down to execution. A silly concept can be made into something special in the right hands.

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Old 07-06-2011, 01:08 AM   #81
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My response to each of your complaints.


-Sexism: You sound like a women who is sick of seeing girls wear make-up and working out to keep their bodies in shape. Since when are women always the sex objects. Alot of women I bet wish their boyfriends/husbands had a six pack while alot of men wish their girlfriends/wifes had D size breast. It's in human nature to want a mate that appears to be in top shape. What about 007? Sex sells and there is no going around it.
The way Bay treats women like empty sex objects is far different from the Bond girls who are often just as cunning as Bond himself.



Quote:
-Racism: How come no one is saying that Ironhide is the trigger happy jar head white guy? Who thinks your a wus unless you drive a pickup truck. It's a movie about Robots and action. Not a movie that is trying to give people the wrong message about blacks. If the Autobots were all voice by white people and the Decepticons were all voiced by black people than I would make a case on Racism. But thats not the case is it?
But the movie does send the wrong message about blacks. It lampoons black culture making the two urban robots the but of the joke. Black culture is simply being laughed at. It's completely unnecessary.




Quote:
-Jingoism: I would rather have a movie were the military is treated like #1 than a movie were they are seen as evil. Our Men and Women in the service should atleast get the respect to not have movies make them out as the bad guys. For real dude you are sounding like a movie is in the wrong if they are not against the military and if so you need your head looked at.
.
No one is saying the US military should be the villain. But why should a Transformer movie be used as a blatant army recruitment ad? The movie is called Transformers not GI Joe.

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Old 07-06-2011, 01:42 AM   #82
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jin·go·ism
    1. flag waving: an appeal intended to arouse patriotic emotions
That's exactly the way the US military is used in Bayformers.

You don't need the military playing such a prominent role in a Transformers movie. The Decepticons have far superior technology so it would make sense if the military allowed the Autobots to be the first line of defense.
Um...
http://i.word.com/idictionary/jingoism
Main Entry: jin·go·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈjiŋ-(ˌ)gō-ˌi-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1878
: extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy

It's a little more than just putting the military out front. Besides, do you honestly think that the American military would just sit back and let the Autobots handle it? No. I think Bay portrayed them just like they would be. How do I know that? Because they would not have given him so much cooperation if he hadn't.


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Old 07-06-2011, 02:37 AM   #83
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Vid Electricz, where in the UK are you from?

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Old 07-06-2011, 02:54 AM   #84
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Speaking to jingoism, there's also the opening sequence featuring Autobots, under American orders, utterly demolishing human "terrorist threats" in other countries. If ever there was a sequence meant to invoke jubilant cries of "U-S-A! U-S-A!" that was it.

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Old 07-06-2011, 03:10 AM   #85
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Speaking to jingoism, there's also the opening sequence featuring Autobots, under American orders, utterly demolishing human "terrorist threats" in other countries. If ever there was a sequence meant to invoke jubilant cries of "U-S-A! U-S-A!" that was it.
Ah, Canada. Maybe Vid Electricz is from there instead.

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Old 07-06-2011, 03:45 AM   #86
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The way Bay treats women like empty sex objects is far different from the Bond girls who are often just as cunning as Bond himself.
What? How many Bond films have you seen? Some bond dames are pretty one dimensional.Ever seen "You only live Twice". I havnt seen it for awhile but I remember the sexism and racism in that film being way worse then DOTM. A few of the girls in that film are pretty weak minded and just there to sleep with Bond. Chicks are running around in Bikinis on active volcanos. Hahaha Its awesome... and very stupid. Much like DOTM. They try to pass off Bond as an asian. I love that film. There are for sure very strong Bond Girls. But there are also a handful who are there for nothing but to have sex and look hot.

Rosie was cunning enough in the film to get Megatron to take out Sentinel. The movies just written badly. Shes not supposed to be empty.


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Old 07-06-2011, 04:19 AM   #87
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Sure the military can be shown making an effort, etc... but there's no need for the over the top masturbatory military fetishism showcased in these films. It's so blatant and in-your-face that it's impossible to miss. Yet another case of a hack trying to shove glib political agenda's down our throats in a movie about giant robots from space.

Have you ever seen a Michael Bay movie before DOTM? Do you enjoy his other films? Your not a Transformers fan and if you saw ROTF (which was criticized for racism way more) you would know what to expect with all the military screen time. So seriously why come back? Why give Bay your money and support this film?


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Old 07-06-2011, 05:40 AM   #88
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Vid, why have you not answered my reply?

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Old 07-06-2011, 08:13 AM   #89
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Transformers doesn't have to be shallow or weak fiction.

Transformers are machines that are alive and have souls. The Autobots were originally worker class machines. The decepticons were a military class. A multi-million year civil war between the two robot classes took place as Autobots wanted freedom and the decepticons wanted tyranny. Their war is extended to Earth when they search the galaxy for energy to win a strategic advantage. This can be a great sci-fi story in the right hands.
If the Alien in Alien suddenly spoke in a John Wayne-esque voice, you'd struggle to take the concept as seriously as Ridley Scott intended it to be taken. Transformers are ENGLISH speaking aliens who interact and have fun adventures with humans. You take that aspect away and you'll have something that only vaguely resembles Transformers. Even the basic premise though is nonsensical crap. No advanced robot gains any strategic advantage from transforming into our cars and trucks.

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Old 07-06-2011, 09:02 AM   #90
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If the Alien in Alien suddenly spoke in a John Wayne-esque voice, you'd struggle to take the concept as seriously as Ridley Scott intended it to be taken. Transformers are ENGLISH speaking aliens who interact and have fun adventures with humans. You take that aspect away and you'll have something that only vaguely resembles Transformers. Even the basic premise though is nonsensical crap. No advanced robot gains any strategic advantage from transforming into our cars and trucks.
1) Intelligent aliens would adapt to their new environment. They studied the local culture then adapted. For Optimus Prime it was a truck driver.

2) Transformers don't go on "fun" adventures with humans. They typically stop the decepticons from destroying Earth or humanity.

3) You don't take anything away by adding cyberpunk themes and making TF an epic space opera.

5) So your saying if you were stuck on a primitive alien planet it wouldn't help to be able to blend in with the surroundings.

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Old 07-06-2011, 09:07 AM   #91
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1) Intelligent aliens would adapt to their new environment. They studied the local culture then adapted. For Optimus Prime it was a truck driver.
There is no advantage they gain from communicating with us, period. We're ants to them. Do you try to learn the ant language.
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2) Transformers don't go on "fun" adventures with humans. They typically stop the decepticons from destroying Earth or humanity.
What show were you watching? Because it wasn't Transformers. Going off with Spike and then casually coming across those no-goodniks the Decepticons was pretty much every episode for the first two seasons. The third season featured the lion's share of it's episodes with Daniel and Grimlock who would stupidly walk into every trap imaginable. No, Transformers is not, nor ever was a gritty war drama. That's all you.
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3) You don't take anything away by adding cyberpunk themes and making TF an epic space opera.
Please keep cyberpunk the f*** away from Transformers.
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5) So your saying if you were stuck on a primitive alien planet it wouldn't help to be able to blend in with the surroundings.
Not really. When you're that much more overwhelmingly powerful, no.

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Old 07-06-2011, 09:32 AM   #92
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BINGO BANGO. You guys are speaking my language.

Where's the creativity and heart in these films?

Answer: There isn't any.

I just came into this thread to say welcome, and i think its wrong for a few posters to come in here and jump on you for sharing your views. Thank you and it is insightful reading your first post.

i think the ones who jump on you are offended by you being an individual and your welling to think instead of just posting a bunch of crap.

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Old 07-06-2011, 11:28 AM   #93
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The way Bay treats women like empty sex objects is far different from the Bond girls who are often just as cunning as Bond himself.




But the movie does send the wrong message about blacks. It lampoons black culture making the two urban robots the but of the joke. Black culture is simply being laughed at. It's completely unnecessary.





No one is saying the US military should be the villain. But why should a Transformer movie be used as a blatant army recruitment ad? The movie is called Transformers not GI Joe.
I agree with you that the Bond girls can be just as cunning and clever as Bond himself but in TF1 Fox's character helps Bee get on that truck and she drives him around while he shoots at Brawl, and Rosie's character talks Megatron into saving Prime's life. The Girls in Tranformers are not just standing on the sidelines crying for the battle to be over they are trying to do things to help the cause.

Making jokes about Black culture is unneeded in a action movie. But Nobody would of cryed racist if a robot with a bad cowboy voice that acted stupid and almost got himself killed alot.

Tranformers could have been all about robots but people would want to know how come humans are not helping the Autobots? Bay has ever right to fly a flag in his movie as you do in your front yard. I think the reason the army had such a huge role was to make a Decepticon attack seem real. That everybody was involed not just the Autobots.

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Old 07-06-2011, 12:27 PM   #94
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Vid, I find your attitude to be quite disappointing. Your views and compassion for higher cinema is commendable, but in your zeal to push your views forward, you are being utterly condescending, immature, and inflammatory; all the while preaching the need for intellectual debate. The juxtaposition is sad, especially when the debate concerns the concept of film degrading people, among other things.

I was originally going to quote many of your posts that supported my opinion above, but A) I realized it would just take too long, and B) I'm sure your comments were fully intentional and therefore I don't need to show them to you.

If you want to have honest and rewarding intelligent discussion, I advise that you act accordingly. Insulting others for their jokes, differing points of view, etc does nothing to help your cause nor your image.

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Old 07-06-2011, 12:34 PM   #95
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Racial stereotypying in a Micheal Bay movie I refuse to believe it




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Old 07-06-2011, 12:42 PM   #96
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Old 07-06-2011, 03:16 PM   #97
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Vid do you mind telling me why you feel the need to attack Michael Bay about Sexism? When there is stuff like 007,playboy,MMA card girls in full force in are world today. Does this also mean when a teenage girl puts make-up on and wears shorts and a thong to the mall to get guys attention that she is being sexist to herself? Women choose to wear less to get more attention.

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Old 07-06-2011, 03:43 PM   #98
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I get that he wants the Transformers movies to be taken a little bit more seriously, but in the same vein, you can't get milk from an orange. Its a movie about robots who can transform into cars blowing stuff up. Just the concept alone appeals to male fantasies and interests. In Bay's mind (I assume), the only thing that can top that is including pretty women. But to damn him for that, when ALL of media praises beauty and sex appeal...I kind of feel like Vid is barking up the wrong tree to a certain degree.

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Old 07-06-2011, 05:06 PM   #99
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I get that he wants the Transformers movies to be taken a little bit more seriously, but in the same vein, you can't get milk from an orange.
Why not?
If we can have movies of substance about people that have evolved to have outlandish superpowers and physical properties, A superman alien that is the last son of his home planet and gets godlike powers from our sun. A teenager gets bitten by a spider and becomes a spiderman. or how about the story of a group of costumed vigilantes along with a man that dies and reconstructs himself to become a naked blue being with godlike powers.
How are these tales, any less outrageous than an alien race of sentient machines that battle over our planets resources and protection?

If the director takes the source material seriously, constructs it with a degree of respect and treats the audience accordingly. then there is no reason why a Transformers film cannot be an epic scifi blockbuster that doesnt insult ones intelligence.

The 1st TF film. despite its flaws and "Bayisms" might not've had much substance. but at least it had some heart and had that sense of awe. The basic premise had been established. then Bay ruins it with juvenile shenanigans, and pisses on the personalities and depth of the title characters and the primary themes of the decades of source material that had transcended its "toyline" origins.

The "ultimate doom" storyline that DOTM took inspiration from couldve been handled so much better. and the title characters. Man did they get bastardized. The film series started off with promise. but now that it is all said and done, its Transformers in name only.
Bayformers really is a fitting title.

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Old 07-06-2011, 05:17 PM   #100
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Exactly. I think people might not have imagination. They see what was a silly cartoon and think there is no way not to make the movies silly.

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