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View Poll Results: Who would win? Captain America or Batman
Captain America 10 66.67%
Batman 5 33.33%
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Old 07-10-2011, 08:25 AM   #51
Drz
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Default Re: Captain America vs Batman

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Originally Posted by Godzilla2014 View Post
You know what, I have been trying to be nice, I have taken your word on things, but I have ****ing had it with you pulling out things that I can't actually verify because I don't happen to have a library in my house, and that I can't verify through Wikipedia. Prove it.
Prove what? That you lack the basic information and wikias and wikipedia aren't good enough? Well the amount of times i've had to correct you pretty much proves my point. His brain activity? Paul Jenkin's Captain America Theater of War #1 and Mark Millar's Ultimate Comics: Avengers #2 are good examples (and recent) to show Captain America's brain.

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Prove it, Captain America fanboy.
Do i see a hint of anger in your post? Well first Batman doesn't annihilate his opponents, even Darkseid the very god of evil was the only person that Batman broke his gun code to wound him and free Turpin's body from Darkseid, but he wouldn't use a city's electricity or a gun towards a Super soldier, he hasn't done that with the likes of Bane or Catwoman, why would he do so now?

Why Captain America flatout destroys Batman? Because he's faster, stronger, more tactical advanced and can process the whole battle, it's environment and his opponent faster then Batman, since he can see bullets in slow motion when in combat, the same does apply for batarangs, grenades and the opponent's movements in general applying Captain America the edge as he can "predict" the next movement based upon the muscle movement of Batman.

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I JUST ****ING DID. Read the ****ing post before telling people that they need to prove things. They just might have. It may be boring, but then you won't be telling people to prove things they already proved because you couldn't be bothered to read it.
Saying he can do something isn't much of an argument.

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Nice ignoring my other example with the bazooka-proof window, *******.
Is that censored word suppose to be an insult? Don't get yourself banned over a internet debate. I don't see how Batman breaking a window is helping Batman at all.

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Also, Rogers cannot use the shield to defend himself on all sides at all times. If Cap is front of the wall, then Batman could throw it over his head, then bounce down for good effect.
He's faster than Batman, so againts Batman he can defend himself with his shield and his battle combat. I mean if you wanna take Kurt Busiek's words when he wrote Batman vs. Captain America, it did have Batman admit he'd lose if the fight would continue, because Captain America's raw strenght and stamina are the edge that make him win. Batman would get hungry, tired, sleepy and whatnot while Captain America would simply be the same as the battle began.

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Even if Cap isn't going to tear down, unless he has heat vision, he cannot see through smoke, so he will be blinded.
It's thick, but i'm more curious how did Captain America even let this happen and why would he stand around the smoke? Considering i've told you about his faster reflexes and how he can see things faster and thus react to them faster with his brain, how does he even manage to allow Batman to
1) Continue fightning. :P
2) Take a smoke pellet(s) out of his belt
3) throw them to the ground
4) stand in the area where he threw the smoke.

Thats the bigger mystery here.

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Prove it.
I have and so has everyone else. Captain America is a super soldier, it's been shown in this entire discussion. Tell you what, take a cool breathe, read this whole topic and then make a response to everyone.

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Prove it.
Who do you think has lead the Avengers in their darkest hours for the most of the time? Who was it that stopped Norman Osbourne's reign? The Avengers led by Captain America. Who was it that lead the Avengers againts the Masters of Evil for the 1st time? Captain America. Who was it that lead the underground Avengers againts the Superhero Registaration Act? Captain America. Who has lead the Avengers for the most time, has been looked up as the greatest hero of all time? Captain America.

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Old 07-10-2011, 09:39 PM   #52
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Default Re: Captain America vs Batman

Guys...

COOL IT!!!

Debate this thread topic RESPECTFULLY or not at all. Next personal attack, or calling somenone a "fanboy" insultingly, will result in an infraction.

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Old 07-10-2011, 09:45 PM   #53
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And for the record...Cap would own Batman

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Old 07-10-2011, 11:24 PM   #54
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Default Re: Captain America vs Batman

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Guys...

COOL IT!!!

Debate this thread topic RESPECTFULLY or not at all. Next personal attack, or calling somenone a "fanboy" insultingly, will result in an infraction.

I give the mods permission to close this thread at any time.

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Old 07-11-2011, 08:12 AM   #55
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Default Re: Captain America vs Batman

I would like to start by apologizing to Drz for the name-calling. That was immature on my part, and I am sorry. Mea culpa.
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Originally Posted by Drz View Post
Prove what? That you lack the basic information and wikias and wikipedia aren't good enough? Well the amount of times i've had to correct you pretty much proves my point. His brain activity? Paul Jenkin's Captain America Theater of War #1 and Mark Millar's Ultimate Comics: Avengers #2 are good examples (and recent) to show Captain America's brain.
This is the source I have been using, and it doesn't list this ability under the powers section. It lists his powers as these:
Physical attributes enhanced to peak of human potential
Expert martial artist and hand-to-hand combatant
All-terrain acrobatics
Master tactician and field commander
Vibranium-steel alloy shield

Unless we are talking about Ultimate Captain America vs Batman, then examples from the Ultimate universe are not admissible without evidence that it also applies to the 616 version.

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Originally Posted by Drz View Post
Do i see a hint of anger in your post? Well first Batman doesn't annihilate his opponents, even Darkseid the very god of evil was the only person that Batman broke his gun code to wound him and free Turpin's body from Darkseid, but he wouldn't use a city's electricity or a gun towards a Super soldier, he hasn't done that with the likes of Bane or Catwoman, why would he do so now?
I never said, nor ever meant to imply, that Batman would do these things to Captain America. The point, the only point, was that Captain America is quite mortal, he is vulnerable, and can die, unlike Superman.

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Originally Posted by Drz View Post
Why Captain America flatout destroys Batman? Because he's faster, stronger, more tactical advanced and can process the whole battle, it's environment and his opponent faster then Batman, since he can see bullets in slow motion when in combat, the same does apply for batarangs, grenades and the opponent's movements in general applying Captain America the edge as he can "predict" the next movement based upon the muscle movement of Batman.
His power list on Wikipedia makes no mention of such abilities.

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Originally Posted by Drz View Post
Saying he can do something isn't much of an argument.
It seems to be your argument.

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Originally Posted by Drz View Post
Is that censored word suppose to be an insult? Don't get yourself banned over a internet debate. I don't see how Batman breaking a window is helping Batman at all.
The point is that it's a feat of strength, the window is designed to sustain a blast from a bazooka with only a scratch. The fact that Batman almost broke such a window means that Batman is quite strong. I can also find one where he knocks out a superhuman with a single punch that could break a normal man's skull.


In this example, he already has done so to the superhuman in question, and is instructing Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) to do likewise if he wakes up.

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Originally Posted by Drz View Post
He's faster than Batman, so againts Batman he can defend himself with his shield and his battle combat. I mean if you wanna take Kurt Busiek's words when he wrote Batman vs. Captain America, it did have Batman admit he'd lose if the fight would continue, because Captain America's raw strenght and stamina are the edge that make him win. Batman would get hungry, tired, sleepy and whatnot while Captain America would simply be the same as the battle began.
Yes, Kurt Busiek was going to have Captain America win, but that would be because it would have been a very long fight. Also though, the way that a scenario plays out once isn't the way it would be guaranteed that it always play out.

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Originally Posted by Drz View Post
It's thick, but i'm more curious how did Captain America even let this happen and why would he stand around the smoke? Considering i've told you about his faster reflexes and how he can see things faster and thus react to them faster with his brain, how does he even manage to allow Batman to
1) Continue fightning. :P
2) Take a smoke pellet(s) out of his belt
3) throw them to the ground
4) stand in the area where he threw the smoke.

Thats the bigger mystery here.
Captain America is not the Flash, he cannot run over and knock Batman out before he finishes a thought. He need allow Batman to do such things, he could easily do so if, for example, he were at a distance from Captain America. Again, his power list makes no mention of him even having any sort of faster reflexes, and if you pull out Ultimate Captain America, then I preemptively call ********.

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Originally Posted by Drz View Post
I have and so has everyone else. Captain America is a super soldier, it's been shown in this entire discussion. Tell you what, take a cool breathe, read this whole topic and then make a response to everyone.
The thing is, again, according to Wikipedia, he is only peak human, with the exception of stamina, and the like. Batman is nowhere near the extreme disadvantage you seem to put him at, and if he was, then how would he have kept up with Captain America in their hand-to-hand combat session in JLA/Avengers? By your calculation, he should have been on the floor unconscious by panel two.

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Originally Posted by Drz View Post
Who do you think has lead the Avengers in their darkest hours for the most of the time? Who was it that stopped Norman Osbourne's reign? The Avengers led by Captain America. Who was it that lead the Avengers againts the Masters of Evil for the 1st time? Captain America. Who was it that lead the underground Avengers againts the Superhero Registaration Act? Captain America. Who has lead the Avengers for the most time, has been looked up as the greatest hero of all time? Captain America.
I'll admit that gave up on Marvel Comics after the One More Day/Brand New Day debacle, so I didn't read Dark Reign, but I know that it was incredibly stupid. If the people of the Marvel Universe would allow a known psychopath to have control over such power, then they may be beyond saving. I don't think I have ever purchased a new comic from them since. If it weren't for my stock in Disney/Marvel, as well as there adaptations in other media, then I wouldn't care at all. Anyway, I think you forget that Batman is highly respected in the DC Universe as well. I think Superman even said that he was "the most dangerous man in the word" once.

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Debate this thread topic RESPECTFULLY or not at all. Next personal attack, or calling somenone a "fanboy" insultingly, will result in an infraction.
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Old 07-11-2011, 10:57 AM   #56
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Unless we are talking about Ultimate Captain America vs Batman, then examples from the Ultimate universe are not admissible without evidence that it also applies to the 616 version.
I'm sorry but since when has it mattered what universe Captain America this is? You in Superman vs. Batman constantly bring out Frank Miller's Batman and you don't see anyone telling you "you can't use that! Mainstream Batman would never go that far!" and i did mention Paul Jenkin's work, and that Cap was during the world war 2 so his powers have only gone up since those days.

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I never said, nor ever meant to imply, that Batman would do these things to Captain America. The point, the only point, was that Captain America is quite mortal, he is vulnerable, and can die, unlike Superman.
Batman's not going to wortally wound anyone, he isn't going to be shooting his legs simply because Cap could heal from lost kneepads.

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His power list on Wikipedia makes no mention of such abilities.
#17 Volume 5. Brubaker's run.

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The point is that it's a feat of strength, the window is designed to sustain a blast from a bazooka with only a scratch. The fact that Batman almost broke such a window means that Batman is quite strong. I can also find one where he knocks out a superhuman with a single punch that could break a normal man's skull.
Or it shows some heavy fan wankery?

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In this example, he already has done so to the superhuman in question, and is instructing Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) to do likewise if he wakes up.
Who is that guy even suppose to be and how is the situation allowed to happen? Not to mention Cap has gotten punches to the face from Iron Man, who do you think hits harder?
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Yes, Kurt Busiek was going to have Captain America win, but that would be because it would have been a very long fight. Also though, the way that a scenario plays out once isn't the way it would be guaranteed that it always play out.
But it's Batman who admits he would lose, can't you take Batman's word for it?


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Captain America is not the Flash, he cannot run over and knock Batman out before he finishes a thought.
That depends on the distance.
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no mention of him even having any sort of faster reflexes
Considering Captain America has fought the likes of Wolverine, Black Panther and well, honestly let's use this example instead:






This is a visual example of how fast he is and how good his reflexes are, this is Jack Kirby Captain America tribute to the core.

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The thing is, again, according to Wikipedia, he is only peak human, with the exception of stamina, and the like. Batman is nowhere near the extreme disadvantage you seem to put him at, and if he was, then how would he have kept up with Captain America in their hand-to-hand combat session in JLA/Avengers? By your calculation, he should have been on the floor unconscious by panel two.
DC fans would have torn the comic apart if it had a Marvel character overpower DC's most popular character with a single punch. Captain America in the fight doesn't use his shield, it was all fists and legs between the other, just like Batman wasn't using any gas grenades or sonar batarangs.

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I didn't read Dark Reign, but I know that it was incredibly stupid.
Don't judge a book by it's cover, thats a dumb move to make because you miss out good stories simply because you aren't fond of the premise.
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I think Superman even said that he was "the most dangerous man in the word" once.
Yes to White Martians who we're taken down by fire, by Grant Morrison.

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Old 07-12-2011, 09:15 AM   #57
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Default Re: Captain America vs Batman

Captain America.

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Old 07-30-2011, 06:14 PM   #58
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cap is not at peak human, he has to be above that. bruce lee is peak human go look that man up, well yes some of the stuff bruce lee could do was amazing cap can do more so not peak human above it. and cap has fought in more wars then batman was alive for.


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Old 08-03-2011, 05:21 PM   #59
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Default Re: Captain America vs Batman

THREAD CLOSED! , does that mean that I can't write anymore??, ha,,

I say Cap wins, he's simply stronger, faster, about the same fighting skills, probably not as smart as Batman, but I think he still wins...

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Old 08-03-2011, 05:54 PM   #60
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agreed.

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Old 08-07-2011, 11:36 AM   #61
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I think what some fail to realize is that Bats TRAINED himself to be at the UTMOST or MAXIMUM capacity of what his NATURAL body can be. Which by normal standards is amazing.
Cap on the other hand his LITERALLY the PEAK in ALL AREAS. Which, makes him STRADDLE the SUPERHUMAN category.
And I'm Speaking of 616 CAP, NOT Ultimate.
DO we really know how strong the strongest human is? Probably not. But CAP is it, (mayhaps a smidge more)
FASTEST? MOST AGILE?
Can Bats be as strong as CAP? SURE. But his speed and mobility go right out the window, as he would most likely end up being built akin to Bane.
Because Normal human physiology doesnt lend it self to reaching Human maximums in all areas. Bats has balanced himself at his abilities.
Caps Super Soldier Serum, however really imposes no such limits.
Also, Bruce, in what little spare time he has is tinkering with new devices, running a multi-national conglomerate, and keeping up the false "playboy" facade.
oh, and he has to train to maintain.
what do we usually see Cap doing, when he's not out fighting his or the Avengers rougues gallery?
Training. ALMOST ALWAYS TRAINING. Although he already has the PERFECT PERFORMANCE body, the man STILL tries and IMPROVE.
And YES. Batman is BRILLIANT. Absolutely BRILLIANT.
But the serum has also affected an already street smart kid's (Steve) brain to work extemely fast. I'm sure if cap went about going to learn about chemisty, physics etc, he could be right up there with Reed Richards, and Hank Pym in book smarts. But his interests do not lie in those areas.
Batman vs. Cap in Jeopardy? Bats would more than likely have a HANDY victory.
But on the battlefield? Caps problem solving/strategy devising would more than likely be a hair or more faster than the Bat.
And with the Marvel DC "fight" between the two?
They never actually really full on 'hit' eachother. It was a TAP, PARRY, FEINT, SHIFT.
They were merely assesing the others movements and abilities.
there really was no need for anyone to 'keep up' with eachother.
Again, Batman COULD pull out a win. Its NOT impossible. But Cap has more of a likelyhood of victory.
And I love both these characters.

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Old 08-07-2011, 12:07 PM   #62
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I have seen Batman come out of impossible situations before so its not beyond the realm of belief to think he can find a weakness in cap and win.But Batman, like Wolverine, is a favorite for writers to really overrate there abilities in battles. If I had to think of a pure fight I would go Cap. Even if Bat can find a weakness, Cap is a master straigist like no other and could still find a way to negate it, if he was able to do that, it becomes a bare fight, then Cap simply overpowers him.

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Old 08-07-2011, 07:49 PM   #63
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I agree with captainrogers. Cap wins by default just because of his enhanced abilities and whatnot, like everyone has been explaining. But Batman has proved in a bunch of different situations that he is very good at SURVIVING. Plus he's intelligent and able to think of ways to overcome his opponents in ways that we probably wouldn't even think of. So again. Batman stands a chance and could win, under certain circumstances, but Cap would probably win in most cases. It's not a definite thing, which one would win. They could fight a hundred different times and every time would be entirely different from the last.

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Old 08-11-2011, 05:52 AM   #64
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Hi guys

Okay first, I've felt quite a heating from some of those posts above, and I don't think we need this. Let's just post what we know, with some examples if we can, and keep it civil. No need to go all blackest nights on each other, this isn't a dark reign ... nevermind

So, Cap wins.

Now, Godzilla2014, the article you've been using is inaccurate. I tried to find a more reliable source on the internet but I couldn't find anything we could really use. For example, there is a superhero database (just google it) that says Cap doesn't have any superhuman attribute. And then a few lines after they tell you he has superstrengh. What I can do is find my old Strange Special Origins that I have somewhere ... somewhere and scan the Captain America page. It has a fully detailed article about Cap, and it comes directly from Marvel, so this could be a solid argument to use. And it wasnít made just by one author, it was a recap of everything Marvel knew about their characters. Now I don't know if DC ever released stuff like that, with precise information on their heroes, not just stuff that's showed in a book and changes from one author to another. So I'll try to post my Cap "resume" ^^ and If someone have the equivalent for Batman, please, share it with us.

So I said Cap wins, because that outcome makes more sense. To me at least. But let's just think about all this now. Batman is supposed to be the ultimate fighter of the DC universe, he has also studied almost every scientific field, trained with magicians, stunt masters, thieves Ö He manages his multinational company with great success and spends a lot of time playing playboy as Bruce Wayne. And all of that while being a simple human. Many people think itís impressive. I say itís impossible. And yeah I know, itís comic books, it is supposed to be impossible. But bear with me one moment please. He doesnít have the time to do all these things. When does he sleeps? At best he should be average in all those disciplines, and it would still be very impressive. That would still make him a superhero. But he is describe as being not as perfect as a human can be, but as perfect as 10 humans training all the time in various specialties could be if they were merged into one person. Batman made sense to me as fighter, because of the training and equipment and motivation and all. But then he was overused, at some point he was even showed using magic, building stuff more advanced than the martian technology, kicking Shivaís ass with ease and so on. And I canít make sense of all this. It feels like he wins most of the time because heís Batman.
On the other hand, Cap is a soldier. He knows how to fight, how to command, and he constantly strives to get better at those things. He barely has a social life outside the uniform and he trains, again and again and again. He trains to fight superhuman, normal humans, synthetic being, from a far distance, in close combat, with the ground shaking or in a freezing wind or Ö in all his career, he has been shown to train to face almost any combat situation, often asking Tony Stark or the Black Panther to redesign new training simulation. And when he is not training, he faces those situations. Even without the super soldier serum, he definitely is a better fighter than Batman. He is also used to think very fast because his team is waiting for his orders. He must adapt his strategy constantly during battle because his teammates get hurt, a new challenger arrives, the battleground gets leveled and stuff like that. Cap is superior in term of training and experience.
And about physical prowess, Cap can stop a charging Hulk just by standing there and blocking the green giant with his shield. Then he can punch the said-Hulk, not enough to beat him but enough to really hurt him, even drawing blood if he used his shield.

So yeah, basically Cap wins because I canít honestly think of a reason why Batman could win other that the fact he is Batman.
Now I said a lot of stuff here, and I ask that you donít consider any of that real hard proof of anything until I bring evidence to back up my claim. Hell I could be wrong here and Iíll change my mind all by myself by proving Iím wrong, could be fun ^^. Iím gonna go dig in my comic collection and scan some pages, Iíll get back to you later.

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Old 05-01-2012, 01:51 PM   #65
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Default Re: Captain America vs Batman

Cap vs Bruce would be a hard fight, but in the end Cap would take it. And I'll explain how. There have been many direct comparisons of the two combatants in this thread already, and most of them have been right, with the exception of a few.

Batman is a member of his world's premier hero team, is their master tactician, and takes on godlike superbeings with his brains, skills, and brilliant prepwork.

Captain America is the leader of his world's premier hero team, is their master tactician, and takes on godlike superbeings with his brains, skills...and nothing else.


But the major factor here is this: Experience.

They have been published since about the same time, but Batman's progression has been linear, he was born, he ages, he fights crime. He took a little time jaunt recently but it was relatively short.

Captain America has been active since World War 2, but he spent decades frozen. But the deciding factor here is Kang. Kang the Conqueror is a time-traveling villain who really hates the Avengers. In one storyline, he kidnaps Cap and takes him to a world Kang already rules with an iron fist, and tells Cap to try and usurp him. Cap creates a rebellion, makes plans, leads them against Kang...and fails. Kang's forces are to strong. So, Kang takes Cap back again for another try, but lets him keep his memories of the failed attempt. Cap tries new tactics, doesn't win. This process continues for a hundred years of relative time, from Cap's point of view. He doesn't age, Kang keeps him young, but he keeps all the experiences. Like an extremely violent version of Groundhog Day. After a hundred years of constant fighting (from Cap's perspective) Kang takes him home, admitting he could not break Cap's spirit. That is the level of experience Batman is up against. That is why he cannot win.

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Old 05-13-2012, 10:29 AM   #66
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Default Re: Captain America vs Batman

Hi, first post.

Can I take a crack at this?

Captain America was given the supersoldier serum. He became the epitome of human evolution, not superhero strong, but as strong as a human can become. He's as agile as any human can become. He's a top athlete, top gymnast. His brain was supersoldiered, too. He fought in World War II, becoming a master in hand-to-hand combat. He's battle tested and a master strategist. And he's a born leader, which is why he led The Avengers for so many years.

Batman has... um... anger. He trained himself to be the best he can be, but he's limited by being just human. He has regular strength, regular gymnastic abilities. He's smart. Genius smart? Maybe. He's rich, for what that's worth.

Essentially, Captain America is Batman on steroids, with more experience, more abilities, more stamina.

My two cents: no question in my mind, Captain America would win.

Especially since Batman fans seem to underestimate Captain America's intelligence and yet, he's outwitted and defeated many of Marvel's genius badguys, the Red Skull, Kang the Conqueror, Dr. Faustus, MODOC, the entire organizations of A.I.M. and Hydra, Zemo, Baron Von Strucker, and Arnim Zola, to name a few. Cap is more than a pretty face, he has the smarts, too.

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Old 05-14-2012, 07:07 PM   #67
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I think Cap would win. Batman may have a lot of cool gadgets and the expertise of a martial artist, but Captain America also has genetic enhancements. I like both these heroes, but hands down, Cap would kick some bat butt in hand to hand combat.
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Old 05-16-2012, 07:02 AM   #68
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I'll give it to Batman on this one...

Cap is a character from the past, so Batman has plenty of source material to do research from on him

if it was a case of Batman never having seen or heard about Cap before, I'd give it to Cap

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Old 05-25-2012, 07:33 AM   #69
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I'm a batfan, but Batman himself said he would lost against Cap in the Avengers/JLA team up.

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Do you guys think the darker tone of The Dark Knight helped elect Barack Obama? Did I notice more than an underhanded slight at Bush's war in the film? In today's society, what role does entertainment media play in electing a president, I actually wonder. I think TDK might have had some influence on forming people's opinions this time, I know it did mine.
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Old 05-25-2012, 07:55 AM   #70
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It's a no contest really. Cap is above Bats in all stats. Is a great martial artist and is tactically astute. There isn't really anything Batman can do if he doesn't have "prep time". Cap would smash him in the face with his shield before Bats even realises what is happening, that's how much quicker Rogers is.

Oh and Batman could take Spider-Man? What? Cap couldn't take Spider-Man. He's waaaaaay too fast and waaaaaay too strong for either of them.


Last edited by The Morningstar; 05-25-2012 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:02 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Godzilla2014 View Post

I think you forgot about Batman being the top fighter and tactician in the DC Universe. In that regard, he is pretty much equivalent to Captain America, but with billions of dollars as well. Your analogy doesn't work.
Batman isn't the best fighter in the DCU. He's top 5 at best.

Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Val Armorr, Cass Cain are all above Batman in martial arts.

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Old 05-25-2012, 08:05 AM   #72
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The Karate Kid is the best.



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Old 05-25-2012, 08:08 AM   #73
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Yea Val is bad ass. It's funny seeing Bat fans think Batman is the best martial artist in the DCU. They need to read more Batman comics, obviously.

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Old 05-25-2012, 08:24 AM   #74
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Default Re: Captain America vs Batman

I'm a batfan and I'm perfectly aware about him not being the best martial artist. Even Bronze Tiger is a real threat to him for instance.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateJustin View Post
Do you guys think the darker tone of The Dark Knight helped elect Barack Obama? Did I notice more than an underhanded slight at Bush's war in the film? In today's society, what role does entertainment media play in electing a president, I actually wonder. I think TDK might have had some influence on forming people's opinions this time, I know it did mine.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:27 AM   #75
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Yea, i'm a Batfan too. But i wouldn't say he's the best martial artist in the DCU. It's proven in his own books that he's not. He's one of the best, for sure. But not THE best. Hell, he's not even the best pure martial artist in the Bat Family. That title goes to Cass Cain.

This is all before the reboot, of course.

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