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Old 07-26-2011, 11:34 AM   #51
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

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And not to belabor my point but the Howling Commandos kinda reminded me of the Warrior's Three in Thor. His rowdy, hard-drinking brothers-in-arms. Except in this case, I think they wanted to show how Cap gets along with his friends from other countries to help win over the tricky international markets.
Actully the Howling Commandos was comic accurate Jacques Dernier (the French guy) and the Jim Morita (Asian American) guy were the only two who were not Howling Commandos in the comics although both characters did make appearances in the comics.

Jacques Dernier was a French resistance fighter who teamed up and helped out the Howling Commandos in the comics, Jim Morita was in a different squadron who got captured and rescued by the Howling Commandos.

For some reason they had Howling Commando Percy Pinkleton the first Union Jacks name James Montgomery Falsworth even though the character looks and acts like Pinkleton

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How long was Steve Rogers active as Captain America? It seems rather brief in the movie.
I think it was Kevin Feige who said Rogers was Captain America for atleast 3 years.

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Old 07-26-2011, 11:37 AM   #52
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You're still not understanding. They got within the general vicinity, it wasn't a question of that. However they still weren't able to find it. The landscape, weather, and no trace of the cube's energy readings prevented it.
Playtechtonics, even in the arctic don't move that fast. Icebergs are another thing but they are mostly surface level, I just find that concept typical comic book fare...like all powerful "vita rays" I'm just not buying it with this particular situation. As for the weather, maybe they could have shown and not (have fans tell us in message boards) told us cause in seemed like the weather was fine where that location was concerned.

The cube thing could have thrown them off I suppose.

I just prefer the way it's been done in comics to be honest. Cap in a slab always seemed harder to find(and all together more tragic) than him riding coach.

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Old 07-26-2011, 11:40 AM   #53
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

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Playtechtonics, even in the arctic don't move that fast. Icebergs are another thing but they are mostly surface level, I just find that concept typical comic book fare...like all powerful "vita rays" I'm just not buying it with this particular situation. As for the weather, maybe they could have shown and not (have fans tell us in message boards) told us cause in seemed like the weather was fine where that location was concerned.

The cube thing could have thrown them off I suppose.

I just prefer the way it's been done in comics to be honest. Cap in a slab always seemed harder to find(and all together more tragic) than him riding coach.
You want people to buy into him being in a block of ice, but you yourself won't buy the angle presented in the film? Just seems ironic.

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Old 07-26-2011, 11:50 AM   #54
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I think it was Kevin Feige who said Rogers was Captain America for atleast 3 years.
Well if that's true, then that's certainly a flaw. It definitely didn't come off like it was that long. It felt like a few months at most.

Peronally though, I think it works better that way. Cap was able to save the world but if he was only active for a limited amount of time, then it makes sense that people would have (apparently) forgotten about him by the time Iron Man showed up on the scene.

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Old 07-26-2011, 11:51 AM   #55
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Everyone knew where the wing launched from, they new where it was heading and they knew it's exact path. Given it's speed and the time of Steve's last transmission I'm sure even a grade 6 math student could tell you where it went down.
I know that seems like what logic says should be true, but we have plenty of examples of real-world plane-crashes in remote areas where all kinds of things are known (flight path, time of last transmission, etc.), where the crash sites and wreckage aren't found for years, if ever. So it SEEMS like a simple matter to plot the path and get a search area and do a grid... but it's not actually that simple.

Plus, one of the biggest factors in making planes difficult to find after a crash is that they often diverge from their intended flight path at some point after their last transmission. I'm not sure there's any reason to suppose that the Giant Wing was still following its flight path. That increases the square mileage of the search area astronomically.

I'm not sure what your further comment about "playtechtonics" means? A huge amount of the Arctic is just ice covering ocean, and yes, the size of storms in the Arctic and the way they can transform the landscape is colossal. The landscape also isn't smooth surface, either. Even if it only takes them a few days to get to what they think is the vicinity of the crash site, it would be completely covered and unrecognizable from the air. And it may be that they wasted weeks or longer, by assuming that the Cube would be with the plane, and thus they followed the signature of the Cube. By the time Howard recovered the Cube and concluded the plane wasn't with it, that's that much more time passed for signs of the actual crash site to be obliterated by the Arctic weather.

Now... I do agree with you that it's a bit weird that everybody clearly had a broad notion of where the Wing and Cap went down... and over all the subsequent decades and advancements in technology, they didn't KEEP looking. I'd be really interested to know why Howard Stark eventually gave up, when he appeared pretty determined to find it, and the Starks seem like stubborn guys.


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Moreover, the post credit commercial/scene in Thor spoke about shield wanting to tap the power source of the cube? huh? Fury can't have possibly meant the same thing Zola and co. accomplished 70 years prior. I won't believe it...again, stark and his obsession with that damn element lol.
Well, this is sort of one of my questions above, too. I don't get this at all. Throughout the Cap movie, the Cube is glowing. (I believe including when Stark picks it up off the ocean bottom.) In Fury's briefcase, it's inert. Why? I don't get it. Everything shown to us in the Cap film seems to imply that it should never NOT be glowing.

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Old 07-26-2011, 11:58 AM   #56
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You want people to buy into him being in a block of ice, but you yourself won't buy the angle presented in the film? Just seems ironic.
buying all this being possible in the context of (science) fiction is ironic to be honest.

But as you read my issue is with their ability to find him. The slab works way better than the titanic sized ship. Let's put it this way, if the Titanic was an treat to the country launched with the worlds great hero on it crashed within 30secs while never breaking radio contact. Crashed on a surface that wasn't littered with buildings and jungles but just slabs of white ice mind you. I would be having just a hard a time believe it.

Now if you tell me that they are to this day looking for an individual body from the original crew of the titanic I'd have a lot better time going to sleep at night(all jokes aside of course).

That's my issue. They put him in the front of the star ship enterprise, crashed him at the footsteps of the coast line(or so they claimed) and he was lost for 70 years.

now maybe if Steve had jumped...

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Old 07-26-2011, 11:58 AM   #57
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

I didn't like that it ended.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:04 PM   #58
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buying all this being possible in the context of (science) fiction is ironic to be honest.

But as you read my issue is with their ability to find him. The slab works way better than the titanic sized ship. Let's put it this way, if the Titanic was an treat to the country launched with the worlds great hero on it crashed within 30secs while never breaking radio contact. Crashed on a surface that wasn't littered with buildings and jungles but just slabs of white ice mind you. I would be having just a hard a time believe it.

Now if you tell me that they are to this day looking for an individual body from the original crew of the titanic I'd have a lot better time going to sleep at night(all jokes aside of course).

That's my issue. They put him in the front of the star ship enterprise, crashed him at the footsteps of the coast line(or so they claimed) and he was lost for 70 years.

now maybe if Steve had jumped...
Yet you believe a man can be encapsulated in a block of ice and live to tell about it. That's why I'm saying it's ironic ..... areas where you choose to suspend your disbelief. You get very semantic with it.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:09 PM   #59
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But as you read my issue is with their ability to find him. The slab works way better than the titanic sized ship. Let's put it this way, if the Titanic was an treat to the country launched with the worlds great hero on it crashed within 30secs while never breaking radio contact. Crashed on a surface that wasn't littered with buildings and jungles but just slabs of white ice mind you. I would be having just a hard a time believe it.
"Just slabs of white ice"? That's the problem. The surface of the Arctic is a maze of jumbled white slabs and crevasses. There are no landmarks. With enough snow/ice cover, the very shapes of the Wing and its crash furrow would look just like every other bit of rutched-up and crevassed ice for miles around.

I kind of agree that if the Titanic hadn't sunk and had instead become ice-locked near the surface, I'd never believe that they couldn't have found it. That thing was as tall as a skyscraper. The Giant Wing, on the other hand, was relatively flat. And I'd argue that it's boomerang shape, with its wing-tips, would have contributed to it looking like another upended ice floe once it got snowed on and iced-over.


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Now if you tell me that they are to this day looking for an individual body from the original crew of the titanic I'd have a lot better time going to sleep at night(all jokes aside of course).
Well, I think there ARE still a lot of people from the Titanic who are unaccounted for (I don't know for sure if they found any bodies on the actual ship, locked in rooms or something). But it's not a good analogy with this, because the sinking and the water itself would have separated the bodies from the ship wreckage, and... it's the ocean. To be indelicate about it, they got eaten.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:09 PM   #60
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Yet you believe a man can be encapsulated in a block of ice and live to tell about it. That's why I'm saying it's ironic ..... areas where you choose to suspend your disbelief. You get very semantic with it.
That's exactly what I said. I remember a similar debate in your TF3 thread. We can suspend our disbelief all we want but when the film stops making logic within itself is when everyone but fan boys take notice.

The dude(who happened to be a rocket scientist) didn't agree with the fact that the nasa shuttle landed that close to the black of the moon and that it would be impossible or something of the sort. I honestly just chalked it up to his knowledge real science inhibiting his enjoyment whereas as the laymen accepts it willingly. This cap situation is similar however one doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to notice something like this.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:12 PM   #61
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Well if that's true, then that's certainly a flaw. It definitely didn't come off like it was that long. It felt like a few months at most.

Peronally though, I think it works better that way. Cap was able to save the world but if he was only active for a limited amount of time, then it makes sense that people would have (apparently) forgotten about him by the time Iron Man showed up on the scene.
I felt like it was a story taking place over years.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:21 PM   #62
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I felt like it was a story taking place over years.
See where I got confused was when Cap's marking different areas on the map with flags. I didn't know how much time had passed at that point.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:22 PM   #63
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Playtechtonics, even in the arctic don't move that fast. Icebergs are another thing but they are mostly surface level, I just find that concept typical comic book fare...like all powerful "vita rays" I'm just not buying it with this particular situation. As for the weather, maybe they could have shown and not (have fans tell us in message boards) told us cause in seemed like the weather was fine where that location was concerned.

The cube thing could have thrown them off I suppose.

I just prefer the way it's been done in comics to be honest. Cap in a slab always seemed harder to find(and all together more tragic) than him riding coach.

It may still be that way. They found the Shield in the plane but if the plain was broken apart he could have been nearby but in a block of ice.

I like the idea of TIH cut scene being cannon and that is the reason that it was found. Hulk jarred the glacier section loose and then the Russians spotted it later.

I hope thats how it goes anyway.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:22 PM   #64
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"Just slabs of white ice"? That's the problem. The surface of the Arctic is a maze of jumbled white slabs and crevasses. There are no landmarks. With enough snow/ice cover, the very shapes of the Wing and its crash furrow would look just like every other bit of rutched-up and crevassed ice for miles around.
I guess that's circumstantial. I think it's easier to find such a thing in a desert than say an amazon jungle by way of Colorado mountains like most of those 90's movies used to do. That's why I say slabs of ice. Again maybe if it landed deep in the ice, but the direction of the film would imply something very different.


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Well, I think there ARE still a lot of people from the Titanic who are unaccounted for (I don't know for sure if they found any bodies on the actual ship, locked in rooms or something). But it's not a good analogy with this, because the sinking and the water itself would have separated the bodies from the ship wreckage, and... it's the ocean. To be indelicate about it, they got eaten.
Yes, it's actually the ship finding that's bothering me to be accurate, Cap being in the most significant portion of it doesn't help. If it was just his drifting body that'd be swell.


I also see where you are coming from with real world situation and flight plan divergence. Though all we know of the divergence is that cap pointed the plane down. Here's the thing. If Osama Bin himself took off on a giant wing whilst battling Obama himself and we all know where it launched from. The wing crashes about 1minute later just after Obama now victorious says good bye. The inability to find it just strikes me as a contrivice. Even if it happened 70 years ago and you replace the key players with Hitler and Roosevelt. Lost planes scenarios just seem to make more sense when it's low key players and late search party deployment. Not when bombers carrying multiple atomic weapons go down near homeland.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:22 PM   #65
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That's exactly what I said. I remember a similar debate in your TF3 thread. We can suspend our disbelief all we want but when the film stops making logic within itself is when everyone but fan boys take notice.

The dude(who happened to be a rocket scientist) didn't agree with the fact that the nasa shuttle landed that close to the black of the moon and that it would be impossible or something of the sort. I honestly just chalked it up to his knowledge real science inhibiting his enjoyment whereas as the laymen accepts it willingly. This cap situation is similar however one doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to notice something like this.
The film presented it's logic to you though. The statement about the lanscape in the beginning .... and then their need for the Cube's energy readings in order to trace anything out there. They never broke either one of their own rules.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:25 PM   #66
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The film presented it's logic to you though. The statement about the lanscape in the beginning .... and then their need for the Cube's energy readings in order to trace anything out there. They never broke either one of their own rules.
Right. Thats how I see it as well. They specifically mention the changing landscape in the beginning for that very reason.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:25 PM   #67
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See where I got confused was when Cap's marking different areas on the map with flags. I didn't know how much time had passed at that point.
Well, he had over 200 performances selling war bonds, all those assaults took time to plan and gather intell, etc. I think it was effective in showing how much time passes.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:28 PM   #68
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Well, he had over 200 performances selling war bonds, all those assaults took time to plan and gather intell, etc. I think it was effective in showing how much time passes.
No, that part I got. It was when he finally went into the battlefield. He rescued the men then we get a cut of him marking flags on a map. It seemed like they were trying to indicate he'd been busy doing certain intel, but it just doesn't make it obvious how long.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:29 PM   #69
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interview with Kevin Feige a couple months ago about cap

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In terms of franchise potential for the characters, presumably anything you do following on from this won't be set in World War II?

Well, not necessarily. If audiences tell us they're exhausted with it, then maybe, but this movie, taking place over almost three years, two or three years, we don't see everything Cap and Bucky did over that time period. We track his very specific Hydra, Skull-oriented missions over those two-and-a-half, three years, but you'll see many, many gaps that can be filled later, specifically so we can go back and explore. I love the way [Ed] Brubaker, the first few pages of one of the comics, will be a World War II adventure, and inform whatever his present day adventure is. I think that could be a fun model if we should be so lucky to do two or three of these.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:31 PM   #70
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Count me in as one who was unsure of how much time had passed. That was probably the only thing I didn't really like, which was how quick or "rushed" the last 30-40 minutes felt. I thought the first hour was great, but after that, basically once he's fully Cap in action, felt a little too quick.

Also, how there was not really any adjustment period to his powers. It almost seemed like he automatically knew how strong and fast he was as soon as he got out of the machine.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:33 PM   #71
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The film presented it's logic to you though. The statement about the lanscape in the beginning .... and then their need for the Cube's energy readings in order to trace anything out there. They never broke either one of their own rules.
The landscape statement applies to "why they themselves hadn't seen the ship before that moment" as in the historically native scientists. That doesn't really present any logic as to why the immediate search and rescue military parties were so inept when it happened live.

Their rules being they are skilled at what they do, yet they couldn't do such a thing when it was possible.

I think the cube thing was a valiant attempt. However they probably would have had more luck using practical methods.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:33 PM   #72
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Count me in as one who was unsure of how much time had passed. That was probably the only thing I didn't really like, which was how quick or "rushed" the last 30-40 minutes felt. I thought the first hour was great, but after that, basically once he's fully Cap in action, felt a little too quick.

Also, how there was not really any adjustment period to his powers. It almost seemed like he automatically knew how strong and fast he was as soon as he got out of the machine.
Don't get me wrong, I can't wait for The Avengers ..... but Captain America would've been an awesome trilogy on it's own.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:34 PM   #73
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I am hoping the sequels are modern era with flashbacks to the past.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:36 PM   #74
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It may still be that way. They found the Shield in the plane but if the plain was broken apart he could have been nearby but in a block of ice.

I like the idea of TIH cut scene being cannon and that is the reason that it was found. Hulk jarred the glacier section loose and then the Russians spotted it later.

I hope thats how it goes anyway.
That's an interesting conclusion.

though I doubt it's in continuity by way of being cut, but that doesn't account for the ship not being found.

I do suppose that would mean that the cap movie is takes place most recently as far as continuity is concerned.

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:37 PM   #75
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The landscape statement applies to "why they themselves hadn't seen the ship before that moment" as in the historically native scientists. That doesn't really present any logic as to why the immediate search and rescue military parties were so inept when it happened live.

Their rules being they are skilled at what they do, yet they couldn't do such a thing when it was possible.

I think the cube thing was a valiant attempt. However they probably would have had more luck using practical methods.
It presents the logic they're using .... and again they never broke it. You just don't find it acceptable.

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